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J. Jump said:[/b]
Boy how telling of Christendom today Brother Herb. It's time for believers to WAKE UP and smell the warnings that the Spirit has so graciously given to us! But let us not sleep like those in the night, but let us be ever watchful so that day does not over take us like a thief in the night.
Wonder why it would be said that, that day (speaking of judgment) would over take some believers like a thief. Hmmmmm . . . just something to ponder.
A man, who is not a one Booker and a Faustite too.
Herb Evans said:Mike Berzins said:The wood hay stubble is built here, in this life. Whatever worthless work that is tried at the judgment seat was built here. And it was a sin to build it.
Yes! Was that sin paid for at Calvary, like you said. -- Herb Evans
After one sinfully builds this work here, the Lord then tries it by fire at the judgment seat of Christ.
Yes! The worthless work is tried, the sin is gone at the JSOC. -- Herb Evans
Based on a man's sinful decision in this life to erect a false work, . . .
Why are you forcing the word "false" into the discussion. Teaching kingdom exclusion and that some saintswill go to hell fire is not only a false work but a false doctrine and SIN. Do you think that will get you excluded? -- Herb Evans
. . .the new man at the judgment seat will suffer loss of his reward.
Yes! -- Herb Evans
Does this accurately reflect your viewpoint?
No, your deceitfully embellished statements more accurately reflect your viewpoints. -- Herb Evans
Sorry about false, I didn't mean to type that. I meant to type "bad" or "worthless". After replacing the word false, is there anything else deceitful or embellished? If so, please be specific.
Mike Berzins said:Herb, the reason I am trying to be so specific in nailing down your position is as follows:
Sorry but I cannot believe you here. To me, you are trying to nail down your take and making it seem that I am consenting to your take (as well has searching for cracks in my armour like your friends). As with most Faustites, you started mildly but are now demonstrating what you are. Seventh Day Adventists do that too. -- Herb Evans
If I understand your view correctly, then according to your view, there will be consequences to the new man at the judgment seat due to the sin committed by the old man in this life.
That is your straw man word. Sin will have no judgment at the JSOC. How may times do I have to say it? It is the worthless deeds/work that will be judged at the JSOC. How many times do I have to say that? The only consequence is to be ashamed and lose rewards. And that will probably be all Christians.--Herb Evans
The sin is gone, but the consequences to the new man are still there – the consequences of suffering the loss of reward. The fact that the Lord paid for the sins does not prevent the consequence of that sin from affecting the new man at the judgment seat.
THis is nothing but double talk. The only consequences of worthless deeds loss of rewards. -- Herb Evans
If this is the case, then how can you say that the new man can not suffer other consequences, such as losing the kingdom, for the specific reason that Jesus paid for our sins?
Mainly, Because the scriptures do not say that a saved peron can lose the kingdom or go to hell fire. Also, because all saved folks inherit the kingdom. Faustite conditions and consequences are interpolated by Faustites, who cannot get what they want from the scriptures. That is exactly what you are doing with the JSOC passages. You can't find what you want there, so you resort to faulty logic and forcing your views into the scripture. -- Herb Evans
You agree (I think) that the new man in principle can suffer the loss of reward as a consequence for the old mans sin. You can (try to) use other scriptures to preach against losing the kingdom, or (try to) say that the loss of the kingdom is being read into here, but simply saying “I can’t lose the kingdom because Jesus died for my sins” just is not reasonable based on what your position regarding consequences to the new man at the judgment seat seems to be.
Well, if you take such a low view of Jesus' death, I cannot help that. But my sins are paid for, past present, and future by my Lord and Saviour; so, there will be no sin at the JSOC to bar me from eternal life or the kingdom. And yes, you are forcing and reading the kingdom into the passage. You will be held accountable for that somewhere! -- Herb Evans
quote=Mike Berzins]The wood hay stubble is built here, in this life. Whatever worthless work that is tried at the judgment seat was built here. And it was a sin to build it.
Yes! Was that sin paid for at Calvary, like you said. -- Herb Evans
After one sinfully builds this work here, the Lord then tries it by fire at the judgment seat of Christ.
Yes! The worthless work is tried, the sin is gone at the JSOC. -- Herb Evans
Based on a man's sinful decision in this life to erect a false work, . . .
Why are you forcing the word "false" into the discussion. Teaching kingdom exclusion and that some saintswill go to hell fire is not only a false work but a false doctrine and SIN. Do you think that will get you excluded? -- Herb Evans
. . .the new man at the judgment seat will suffer loss of his reward.
Yes! -- Herb Evans
Does this accurately reflect your viewpoint?
No, your deceitfully embellished statements more accurately reflect your viewpoints. -- Herb Evans
Mike Berzins said:Herb Evans said:Sorry about false, I didn't mean to type that. I meant to type "bad" or "worthless". After replacing the word false, is there anything else deceitful or embellished? If so, please be specific.
Yes, the characterization of "sin" and "sinfully" by you as pertaining to the JSOC is also an embellishment of what occurs there. -- herb Evans
J. Jump said:You know for a person that got all up in arms when he was labeled a Ruckmanite you sure don't have a problem labeling people do you Herb. There's a word for that . . .
Herb Evans said:Originally Posted by Mike Berzins
Herb, the reason I am trying to be so specific in nailing down your position is as follows:
Sorry but I cannot believe you here. To me, you are trying to nail down your take and making it seem that I am consenting to your take (as well has searching for cracks in my armour like your friends). As with most Faustites, you started mildly but are now demonstrating what you are. Seventh Day Adventists do that too. -- Herb Evans
Yes, I am searching for cracks in your armor. If you have on the whole armor of God, there will be no cracks. Prove all things, hold fast to that which is true. If your doctrines about JSOC are true, I want to know that, and accept them myself. If they are not, I want to expose them to you, so that you will get right in your doctrine and put on some armor that is not "cracked"
If I understand your view correctly, then according to your view, there will be consequences to the new man at the judgment seat due to the sin committed by the old man in this life.
That is your straw man word. Sin will have no judgment at the JSOC. How may times do I have to say it? It is the worthless deeds/work that will be judged at the JSOC. How many times do I have to say that? The only consequence is to be ashamed and lose rewards. And that will probably be all Christians.--Herb Evans
How did the worthless work get to the judgment seat of Christ? It didn't just pop into existence after the man died. It got there by being built by the man, during his life. The man's choice to build the worthless work was sin. So the worthless work is what is judged, not the sin, but the work got there due to the man's sin in this life. You admit that there are consequences of having a worthless work at the judgment seat of Christ. You say that the consequences are to be ashamed and lose rewards. If you do sin in this life by building a wood hay stubble work, you will be ashamed at the judgment seat of Christ. The reason the new man at the JSOC is ashamed for having a worthless work judged, is because the old man had sinned by building it in the first place, during his life. If, in this life, you did not sin by building a worthless work, you would have no cause to be ashamed. So I ask again, why is the new man ashamed at the JSOC becasue of works that were built by the sinful action of the old man, if the sin was already paid for?
And why would a sinless new man be ashamed of anything the old man did?
The sin is gone, but the consequences to the new man are still there – the consequences of suffering the loss of reward. The fact that the Lord paid for the sins does not prevent the consequence of that sin from affecting the new man at the judgment seat.
THis is nothing but double talk. The only consequences of worthless deeds loss of rewards. -- Herb Evans
Herb, the loss of rewards is the consequence of worthless works. But the worthless works are a consequence of sin in this life. Therefore the loss of rewards are a consequence of sin in this life. This is not double talk. This is simple and reasonable logic.
If this is the case, then how can you say that the new man can not suffer other consequences, such as losing the kingdom, for the specific reason that Jesus paid for our sins?
Mainly, Because the scriptures do not say that a saved peron can lose the kingdom or go to hell fire. Also, because all saved folks inherit the kingdom. Faustite conditions and consequences are interpolated by Faustites, who cannot get what they want from the scriptures. That is exactly what you are doing with the JSOC passages. You can't find what you want there, so you resort to faulty logic and forcing your views into the scripture. -- Herb Evans
I am not trying to force anything into the scripture. I am trying to go line upon line, precept upon precept. I understand you have many other reasons and scriptures that you think show that saved folks can not go to hell or lose the kingdom. We will get to those, Lord willing. But right now, I am just trying to make crystal clear the fact that if any saved, blood bought believing man sins in this life, the consqeuences of this sin can be shame and loss of rewards at the judgment seat.
You agree (I think) that the new man in principle can suffer the loss of reward as a consequence for the old mans sin. You can (try to) use other scriptures to preach against losing the kingdom, or (try to) say that the loss of the kingdom is being read into here, but simply saying “I can’t lose the kingdom because Jesus died for my sins” just is not reasonable based on what your position regarding consequences to the new man at the judgment seat seems to be.
Well, if you take such a low view of Jesus' death, I cannot help that. But my sins are paid for, past present, and future by my Lord and Saviour; so, there will be no sin at the JSOC to bar me from eternal life or the kingdom. And yes, you are forcing and reading the kingdom into the passage. You will be held accountable for that somewhere! -- Herb Evans
My view of the Lord Jesus's death is undoubtedly too low, or I would be meditating on it more than I do. Please help me Lord Jesus to never underestimate the power or significance of your dying on the tree for me. But I do also believe all my sins are paid for past present and future as well. I do know though that if I commit sin in this life, it can cause me to suffer shame and loss at the judment seat. And if this happens I won't be able to simply say to the Lord at the JSOC "But you paid for my sins, I believe in you, therefore you can't let a result of my sin cause me shame or loss of rewards here at the judgment seat." It doesn't work that way according to the bible. So you can't use a similar argument against the loss of the kingdom either.
Why don't you just grant the point that losing rewards or being ashamed at the judgment seat occurs as a (indirect, if you must) consequence of sin in this life?
Mike Berzins said:And since I might not be checking these for a couple of days, here's the next part. Does the experience of the believer Jonah have anything to teach a Christian, or do we just write it off as old testament?
Jonah in the belly of hell
Jonah 1:17-2:10 17 Now the LORD had prepared a great fish to swallow up Jonah. And Jonah was in the belly of the fish three days and three nights.
2:1 Then Jonah prayed unto the LORD his God out of the fish's belly,
Jonah was in the belly of the whale three days and three nights. After three days and three nights had passed, Jonah was alive in the whale and praying to God. Next is what Jonah said happened during those three days and nights:
2 And said, I cried by reason of mine affliction unto the LORD, and he heard me; out of the belly of hell cried I, and thou heardest my voice.
Here we have Jonah, crying by reason of affliction, from “the belly of hell.” Why was Jonah crying from the “belly of hell”? The next verses describe how he arrived there:
3 For thou hadst cast me into the deep, in the midst of the seas; and the floods compassed me about: all thy billows and thy waves passed over me.
Jonah is now under water in the sea.
4 Then I said, I am cast out of thy sight; yet I will look again toward thy holy temple.
Jonah realizes that he is in big trouble and purposes in his heart to look to God for help.
5 The waters compassed me about, even to the soul: the depth closed me round about, the weeds were wrapped about my head.
Now we see that the waters are compassing Jonah about even to the soul. Could it be that perhaps Jonah (as a type of the Lord) died?
6 I went down to the bottoms of the mountains; the earth with her bars was about me for ever: yet hast thou brought up my life from corruption, O LORD my God.
Yes, Jonah’s dead body, with seaweed wrapped about his head, was now at the bottom of the ocean, soon to be swallowed by a whale, where it would remain three days and three nights. The earth’s “bars” were about him for ever. Hell, located in the deep heart of the earth, has gates and it has bars. Jonah’s soul was indeed in the belly of hell. Job helps us understand what corruption means.
Job 17:13-16 If I wait, the grave is mine house: I have made my bed in the darkness.14 I have said to corruption, Thou art my father: to the worm, Thou art my mother, and my sister.15 And where is now my hope? as for my hope, who shall see it?16 They shall go down to the bars of the pit, when our rest together is in the dust.
Jonah’s life was brought up from the corruption of death. Unlike the Lord’s body, Jonah’s dead body saw corruption (the decay of death), and needed to be brought up from it. And unlike the Lord’s soul, Jonah’s soul was “afflicted” (v2) in hell. He wasn’t in paradise where Lazarus went (Luke 16:19ff) (there is no affliction there). The belly of hell was not only death or the grave (one’s dead body does not cry out from the grave). And the “belly of hell” could not have been simply a metaphorical reference to the belly of the whale, because Jonah “cried out” from the belly. We have already seen that Jonah was dead at this point, so Jonah’s dead body was not crying out from the belly of the whale. He was crying out from the hell where the rich man went. (Luke 16:19ff).
7 When my soul fainted within me I remembered the LORD: and my prayer came in unto thee, into thine holy temple.
God answered Jonah’s dying prayer, and brought him back to life after three days and nights. His soul was then reunited with his body (restored from the festering, stinking corruption of being dead three days) in the belly of the whale.
8 They that observe lying vanities forsake their own mercy.9 But I will sacrifice unto thee with the voice of thanksgiving; I will pay that that I have vowed. Salvation is of the LORD.10 And the LORD spake unto the fish, and it vomited out Jonah upon the dry land
Jonah, now alive in the belly of the whale, finishes his prayer started in verse 1. Next, the Lord put Jonah on dry land, ready to pay that which he vowed. Jonah was a believer, afflicted in hell. Take heed to his warning. Don’t observe lying vanities (such as God can not chasten believers after they die, OR all fornicators, etc. are just false professors and not true Christians, OR the warnings are only for the unsaved or tribulation Jews who are saved by faith and works, OR it’s just a parable - “doth he not speak in parables”), and thereby forsake your own mercy. Instead, repent, and rejoice with trembling, and serve the Lord with reverence and godly fear, for our God is love – but he is also a consuming fire.
P.S. Some realize that Jonah chapter 2 is clearly referring to an affliction in a literal hell. To try to escape from the idea of a believer in hell, they say that the quotations of Jonah are a prophecy that refers to the Lord’s suffering there, rather than Jonah’s. This is why I asked the opening question that I asked – I wanted the doctrine of the Lord suffering in hell immediately out in the open, if it were believed here.
Herb Evans said:Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Berzins
Herb, the reason I am trying to be so specific in nailing down your position is as follows:
Sorry but I cannot believe you here. To me, you are trying to nail down your take and making it seem that I am consenting to your take (as well has searching for cracks in my armour like your friends). As with most Faustites, you started mildly but are now demonstrating what you are. Seventh Day Adventists do that too. -- Herb Evans
Yes, I am searching for cracks in your armor. If you have on the whole armor of God, there will be no cracks. Prove all things, hold fast to that which is true. If your doctrines about JSOC are true, I want to know that, and accept them myself. If they are not, I want to expose them to you, so that you will get right in your doctrine and put on some armor that is not "cracked"
Well, I am glad for you to admit your subtle traps. But it is you that have the cracked armour. They show in your forcing of your views into the scriptures. I, however, am not searching for Faustite cracks for they are too obvious. --Herb Evans
Quote:
If I understand your view correctly, then according to your view, there will be consequences to the new man at the judgment seat due to the sin committed by the old man in this life.
That is your straw man word. Sin will have no judgment at the JSOC. How may times do I have to say it? It is the worthless deeds/work that will be judged at the JSOC. How many times do I have to say that? The only consequence is to be ashamed and lose rewards. And that will probably be all Christians.--Herb Evans
How did the worthless work get to the judgment seat of Christ? It didn't just pop into existence after the man died. It got there by being built by the man, during his life.
Yes! Whatsoever is not of faith is sin; that hits Faustites extremenly hard. -- Herb Evans
The man's choice to build the worthless work was sin. So the worthless work is what is judged, not the sin, but the work got there due to the man's sin in this life.
Yes, again. Faustites will appear at the JSOC due to the worthless sin's in their lives, if they are really saved. The worthless works show up at the JSOC along with the worthy works, but the sins do not show up, because they were paid for, unless you have a low esteem of the sacrificial death of my Lord and Saviour. -- Herb Evans
You admit that there are consequences of having a worthless work at the judgment seat of Christ. You say that the consequences are to be ashamed and lose rewards. If you do sin in this life by building a wood hay stubble work, you will be ashamed at the judgment seat of Christ. The reason the new man at the JSOC is ashamed for having a worthless work judged, is because the old man had sinned by building it in the first place, during his life.
Consequences is your word, but So far so good. Still no problem for Herb Evans-- Herb Evans
If, in this life, you did not sin by building a worthless work, you would have no cause to be ashamed.
Well, now, Mr. sinless, that means that you either think that you do not commit such sins or that you have no worthless works. Yesterday, in a restaurant, it took me 3 urges from the Holy Spirit to give a Gospel tract to a black man, who I heard telling another that he died twice on the operating table. To know to do good and do it not is sin. Evidently, you think that you will not be ashamed of anything at the JSOC. But I know that I will. But maybe you can excuse yourself from the little sins? You know you can jump over the moon, if you bring the moon low enough. -- Herb Evans
So I ask again, why is the new man ashamed at the JSOC becasue of works that were built by the sinful action of the old man, if the sin was already paid for?
In order to prejudice your view, You keep embellishing your logic with the word "sin" or "sinful," when there is no sin at the JSOC -- only works, good works and bad works. Show me sin in the JSOC passages or acknowledge that you are messing with the scriptures. -- Herb Evans
And why would a sinless new man be ashamed of anything the old man did?
Why would the new man be ashamed here at the sins of the old man? But then, you are not ashamed at promoting your false doctrine, are you?-- Herb Evans
Quote:
The sin is gone, but the consequences to the new man are still there – the consequences of suffering the loss of reward. The fact that the Lord paid for the sins does not prevent the consequence of that sin from affecting the new man at the judgment seat.
THis is nothing but double talk. The only consequences of worthless deeds loss of rewards. -- Herb Evans
Herb, the loss of rewards is the consequence of worthless works. But the worthless works are a consequence of sin in this life. Therefore the loss of rewards are a consequence of sin in this life. This is not double talk. This is simple and reasonable logic.
That is all you are able to do is use logic, for you certainly do not have any scripture for sin at the JSOC. -- Herb Evanns
Quote:
If this is the case, then how can you say that the new man can not suffer other consequences, such as losing the kingdom, for the specific reason that Jesus paid for our sins?
Mainly, Because the scriptures do not say that a saved peron can lose the kingdom or go to hell fire. Also, because all saved folks inherit the kingdom. Faustite conditions and consequences are interpolated by Faustites, who cannot get what they want from the scriptures. That is exactly what you are doing with the JSOC passages. You can't find what you want there, so you resort to faulty logic and forcing your views into the scripture. -- Herb Evans
I am not trying to force anything into the scripture. I am trying to go line upon line, precept upon precept. I understand you have many other reasons and scriptures that you think show that saved folks can not go to hell or lose the kingdom. We will get to those, Lord willing. But right now, I am just trying to make crystal clear the fact that if any saved, blood bought believing man sins in this life, the consqeuences of this sin can be shame and loss of rewards at the judgment seat.
Then the line and precept that you are trying to promote got left out of the JSOC passages. I have conceded that the works were done in this life. What do you think I am saying? That they were done at the JSOC. You are belabouring a point that is irrelevant. -- Herb Evans
Quote:
You agree (I think) that the new man in principle can suffer the loss of reward as a consequence for the old mans sin. You can (try to) use other scriptures to preach against losing the kingdom, or (try to) say that the loss of the kingdom is being read into here, but simply saying “I can’t lose the kingdom because Jesus died for my sins” just is not reasonable based on what your position regarding consequences to the new man at the judgment seat seems to be.
Well, if you take such a low view of Jesus' death, I cannot help that. But my sins are paid for, past present, and future by my Lord and Saviour; so, there will be no sin at the JSOC to bar me from eternal life or the kingdom. And yes, you are forcing and reading the kingdom into the passage. You will be held accountable for that somewhere! -- Herb Evans
My view of the Lord Jesus's death is undoubtedly too low, or I would be meditating on it more than I do.
Well, you are going to have a problem with that at the JSOC and may not make it to the kingdom or escape hell fire. -- Herb Evans
Please help me Lord Jesus to never underestimate the power or significance of your dying on the tree for me. But I do also believe all my sins are paid for past present and future as well. I do know though that if I commit sin in this life, it can cause me to suffer shame and loss at the judment seat.
So far, so good, except for your intimation that the sin will carry over to the JSOC. -- Herb Evans
And if this happens I won't be able to simply say to the Lord at the JSOC "But you paid for my sins, I believe in you, therefore you can't let a result of my sin cause me shame or loss of rewards here at the judgment seat." It doesn't work that way according to the bible. So you can't use a similar argument against the loss of the kingdom either.
Are You so blind that you cannot see the contradictions in this statement? If it is an arguement for not losing eternal salvation; it is also an argument for not losing the kingdom. The distinction that Faustites make between them are not in the scripture, hence this problem of contradiction that you entertain is one of your own making and not of a believer trusting the Lord Jesus Christ for both eternal salvation and the kingdom. -- Herb Evans
Why don't you just grant the point that losing rewards or being ashamed at the judgment seat occurs as a (indirect, if you must) consequence of sin in this life?
I have already granted that more than a couple of times, but you want to belabour it. What you must grant me is that sin is not mentioned in the JSOC passages, an unlikely thing for something so serious if it were true? -- Hreb Evans
Herb Evans said:Well, if Jonah was in the whale's belly 3 days and nights praying and in the sea, I cannot subscribe to Jonah ever dying, although he did feint. But if Jonah did die and go to a fiery hell, which he didn't, he would be the first one that ever prayed himself out of a fiery hell or crossed the great gulf that is fixed. I have a whole article on Jonah 2, but that is not for here. -- Herb Evans
Herb Evans said:Again, not trying to set traps. Iron sharpeneth iron, so does a man the countenance of his friend. Can we be friends?Well, I am glad for you to admit your subtle traps. But it is you that have the cracked armour. They show in your forcing of your views into the scriptures. I, however, am not searching for Faustite cracks for they are too obvious. --Herb Evans
Yes! Whatsoever is not of faith is sin; that hits Faustites extremenly hard. -- Herb EvansThe man's choice to build the worthless work was sin. So the worthless work is what is judged, not the sin, but the work got there due to the man's sin in this life.
Yes, again. Faustites will appear at the JSOC due to the worthless sin's in their lives, if they are really saved. The worthless works show up at the JSOC along with the worthy works, but the sins do not show up, because they were paid for, unless you have a low esteem of the sacrificial death of my Lord and Saviour. -- Herb Evans
So the sins (already paid for by Jesus) aren't at the judgment seat because only the new man, who cannot sin, is present. Our sins, (which are still aready paid for by the Lord), are still with us now simply because the old man is still alive?
Consequences is your word, but So far so good. Still no problem for Herb Evans-- Herb Evans
If, in this life, you did not sin by building a worthless work, you would have no cause to be ashamed.
Well, now, Mr. sinless, that means that you either think that you do not commit such sins or that you have no worthless works. Yesterday, in a restaurant, it took me 3 urges from the Holy Spirit to give a Gospel tract to a black man, who I heard telling another that he died twice on the operating table. To know to do good and do it not is sin. Evidently, you think that you will not be ashamed of anything at the JSOC. But I know that I will. But maybe you can excuse yourself from the little sins? You know you can jump over the moon, if you bring the moon low enough. -- Herb Evans
Sorry, did not mean that "you" personally are building anything bad. I should have said it third person. I sometimes slip into using you's or we pretty generically. I am not sinless. I hope I am not ashamed of anyhing at the judgment seat. I seem to recall some scriptures somewhere that indicated that some will not be ashamed.
In order to prejudice your view, You keep embellishing your logic with the word "sin" or "sinful," when there is no sin at the JSOC -- only works, good works and bad works. Show me sin in the JSOC passages or acknowledge that you are messing with the scriptures. -- Herb EvansGood first question. The answer seems to be that the new man wouldn't be ashamed of the old man either here or at the judgment seat. Yet at the judgment seat the new man is ashamed because of works built by the old man. Maybe there is a flaw in your understanding of the distinction between the old and new man.And why would a sinless new man be ashamed of anything the old man did?
Why would the new man be ashamed here at the sins of the old man? But then, you are not ashamed at promoting your false doctrine, are you?-- Herb Evans
Herb, the loss of rewards is the consequence of worthless works. But the worthless works are a consequence of sin in this life. Therefore the loss of rewards are a consequence of sin in this life. This is not double talk. This is simple and reasonable logic.
That is all you are able to do is use logic, for you certainly do not have any scripture for sin at the JSOC. -- Herb Evanns
And if this happens I won't be able to simply say to the Lord at the JSOC "But you paid for my sins, I believe in you, therefore you can't let a result of my sin cause me shame or loss of rewards here at the judgment seat." It doesn't work that way according to the bible. So you can't use a similar argument against the loss of the kingdom either.
Are You so blind that you cannot see the contradictions in this statement? If it is an arguement for not losing eternal salvation; it is also an argument for not losing the kingdom. The distinction that Faustites make between them are not in the scripture, hence this problem of contradiction that you entertain is one of your own making and not of a believer trusting the Lord Jesus Christ for both eternal salvation and the kingdom. -- Herb Evans
Why don't you just grant the point that losing rewards or being ashamed at the judgment seat occurs as a (indirect, if you must) consequence of sin in this life?
I have already granted that more than a couple of times, but you want to belabour it. What you must grant me is that sin is not mentioned in the JSOC passages, an unlikely thing for something so serious if it were true? -- Hreb Evans
I think we are making progress, albeit painstakingly slow. I will grant that the word "sin" is not mentioned in I Corinthians 3.
So, for sake of the discussion, I will also grant that there is no sin at the judgment seat. But there is still loss of rewards and shame that are possible. So do you believe that one can not lose the kingdom at the judgment seat, not because Jesus died for our sins and therefore no possible loss or bad consequences can result, but because there is allegedly no scriptural distinction between the kingdom and eternal salvation? And because in the same way that our eternal salvation is secured by Jesus paying for our sins, our kingdom reign is secured also by Jesus paying for our sins?
Mike Berzins said:Jonah was not praying for three days and nights in the whale. Jonah 1:17 simply says Jonah was in the belly of the fish three days and three nights. This statement alone is true whether Jonah was dead or alive. When we read further we see that he died. The chronology is Jonah was thrown overboard, he cried unto the Lord while he was under water, and he then had weeds wrapped about his head. He made a final dying prayer in 2:7 and he died. His body, which saw corruption and thus was dead, was swallowed by a whale. Jonah's corpse was in the whale for three days and three nights. In the meantime, Jonah went down to hell. The Lord, heard Jonah's dying prayer and answered it three days later by raising Jonah from the dead. Jonah was now alive in the whale's belly and praying to the Lord (2:1), relating everything that had just happened to him. At the conclusion of his prayer, he is vomitted out upon dry land.
So Jonah did not pray himself out of hell while he was in hell. His answered prayer was made while he was still alive. And he didn't cross the gulf himself, God took him out. God will take people out of hell at the great white throne judgment also; this is a good illustration of that.
Mike Berzins said:Herb Evans said:Again, not trying to set traps. Iron sharpeneth iron, so does a man the countenance of his friend. Can we be friends?
Unfortunately, no, as long as you believe the way that you do. I was on friendly terms with Faust before he blind sided everyone with his doctrine. Since that time I have disfellowshipped him. I do not have to disfellowship you newcomer Faustites, because I never started fellowship or friendsip with you. I am refraining from saying something more caustic here due to your lack of militancy and your attempt to reason sensibly, although without scripture in the JSOC passages. --Herb Evans
So the sins (already paid for by Jesus) aren't at the judgment seat because only the new man, who cannot sin, is present. Our sins, (which are still aready paid for by the Lord), are still with us now simply because the old man is still alive?
Yes, I am proud of you; you got it this time. -- Herb Evans
Sorry, did not mean that "you" personally are building anything bad. I should have said it third person. I sometimes slip into using you's or we pretty generically. I am not sinless. I hope I am not ashamed of anyhing at the judgment seat. I seem to recall some scriptures somewhere that indicated that some will not be ashamed.
No problem, I was not taking it personally. Well, whoever they are that will not be ashamed are unknown to me, and I suspect also to you. Under the circumstances, how many do you think will be unashamed? Do you think that you will not be ashamed? Would you consider it self righteousness to think that you would not be ashamed? Do you think that there will be degrees of shame? Of worthless works? -- Herb Evans
Good first question. The answer seems to be that the new man wouldn't be ashamed of the old man either here or at the judgment seat. Yet at the judgment seat the new man is ashamed because of works built by the old man. Maybe there is a flaw in your understanding of the distinction between the old and new man.
Or a flaw in your understandin? The problem here is your failure to see a distinction of the old man and new man here on earth. The old man will not be present at the JSOC, so no distinction need be made there. The value of the deeds done in the body on earth will be under consideration at the JSOC, not the old man's sins. -- Herb Evans
I think we are making progress, albeit painstakingly slow. I will grant that the word "sin" is not mentioned in I Corinthians 3.
I appreciate that concession. -- Herb Evans
So, for sake of the discussion, I will also grant that there is no sin at the judgment seat. But there is still loss of rewards and shame that are possible.
I accept that grant and concede the loss and shame, as i always have. -- Herb Evans
So do you believe that one can not lose the kingdom at the judgment seat, not because Jesus died for our sins and therefore no possible loss or bad consequences can result, . . .
Again, you are framing your question in terms that I would not, since your idea of bad consequences and mine differ radically. But yes, loss of rewards and shame do occur. Yes, I do believe that the reason that I cannot lose eternal salvation or the kingdom is because that Jesus paid for my sins.
. . . but because there is allegedly no scriptural distinction between the kingdom and eternal salvation?
No, I do not believe that this is why I cannot miss eternal salvation or the kingdom. I brought up this point because Faustites muddy the water between eternal salvation and kingdom entrance. They mix and match the two at a whim to support their doctrine, making distinctions that are not there. -- Herb Evans
And because in the same way that our eternal salvation is secured by Jesus paying for our sins, our kingdom reign is secured also by Jesus paying for our sins?
You have this correct. As I said, I have a high view of Jesus' vicarious death for my sins. Not only that, I have a high view of His vicarious resurrection for my sins and His perfect vicarious, sinless, life for me. -- Herb Evans
Herb Evans said:Again, this is for another thread. It just muddies the water. I will post a new thread on this. -- Herb Evans
Herb Evans said:Mike Berzins said:Sorry, did not mean that "you" personally are building anything bad. I should have said it third person. I sometimes slip into using you's or we pretty generically. I am not sinless. I hope I am not ashamed of anyhing at the judgment seat. I seem to recall some scriptures somewhere that indicated that some will not be ashamed.
No problem, I was not taking it personally. Well, whoever they are that will not be ashamed are unknown to me, and I suspect also to you. Under the circumstances, how many do you think will be unashamed? Do you think that you will not be ashamed? Would you consider it self righteousness to think that you would not be ashamed? Do you think that there will be degrees of shame? Of worthless works? -- Herb Evans
I don't know how many will be unashamed. I hope I appear before the Lord unashamed, and I think it would be presumptuous of me to assume I will be unashamed, before my life is at or nearing its end. I believe Paul was not ashamed.
II Timothy 4:6-8 For I am now ready to be offered, and the time of my departure is at hand. 7 I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith: 8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.
And yes, I believe there are degrees of shame and bad (to revert back to the bible terminology) works.
Good first question. The answer seems to be that the new man wouldn't be ashamed of the old man either here or at the judgment seat. Yet at the judgment seat the new man is ashamed because of works built by the old man. Maybe there is a flaw in your understanding of the distinction between the old and new man.
Or a flaw in your understandin? The problem here is your failure to see a distinction of the old man and new man here on earth. The old man will not be present at the JSOC, so no distinction need be made there. The value of the deeds done in the body on earth will be under consideration at the JSOC, not the old man's sins. -- Herb Evans
Even with a distinction between the new man and the old here, and even with the new man only being present at the JSOC, I don't understand why the new man is ashamed of works that were built by the old man. Especially since the distinction between the two is so great that one man (the old) sins while another (the new) can not. Should you, Herb Evans, have to suffer loss and shame for bad works built by me? If not why should you have to suffer loss and shame for the works built by your old man?
So do you believe that one can not lose the kingdom at the judgment seat, not because Jesus died for our sins and therefore no possible loss or bad consequences can result, . . .
Again, you are framing your question in terms that I would not, since your idea of bad consequences and mine differ radically. But yes, loss of rewards and shame do occur. Yes, I do believe that the reason that I cannot lose eternal salvation or the kingdom is because that Jesus paid for my sins.
And because in the same way that our eternal salvation is secured by Jesus paying for our sins, our kingdom reign is secured also by Jesus paying for our sins?
You have this correct. As I said, I have a high view of Jesus' vicarious death for my sins. Not only that, I have a high view of His vicarious resurrection for my sins and His perfect vicarious, sinless, life for me. -- Herb Evans
In principle, if one can suffer loss and shame at the JSOC because of the judgment rendered on bad works, why can't one suffer the loss of the kingdom at he JSOC, not because of sin, but because of the bad works? Why can't one have a high view of Jesus' death and resurrection and life, and also simply believe that as a result of the judgment against bad works, one can suffer loss of rewards, shame, and also the loss of the kingdom?
Mike Berzins said:Herb Evans said:I don't know how many will be unashamed. I hope I appear before the Lord unashamed, and I think it would be presumptuous of me to assume I will be unashamed, before my life is at or nearing its end. I believe Paul was not ashamed.
II Timothy 4:6-8 For I am now ready to be offered, and the time of my departure is at hand. 7 I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith: 8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.
And yes, I believe there are degrees of shame and bad (to revert back to the bible terminology) works.
So, there will be degrees of rewards as well. -- Herb Evans
Even with a distinction between the new man and the old here, and even with the new man only being present at the JSOC, I don't understand why the new man is ashamed of works that were built by the old man. Especially since the distinction between the two is so great that one man (the old) sins while another (the new) can not. Should you, Herb Evans, have to suffer loss and shame for bad works built by me? If not why should you have to suffer loss and shame for the works built by your old man?
Well, because the works were done during one's life. You could ask the same question about the old man. Why should your old man receive anything? Especially since he is not there and is gone. -- Hreb Evans
In principle, if one can suffer loss and shame at the JSOC because of the judgment rendered on bad works, why can't one suffer the loss of the kingdom at he JSOC, not because of sin, but because of the bad works? Why can't one have a high view of Jesus' death and resurrection and life, and also simply believe that as a result of the judgment against bad works, one can suffer loss of rewards, shame, and also the loss of the kingdom?
BECAUSE THERE IS NO SCRIPTURE FOR SAVED PEOPLE LOSING THE KINGDOM OR ETERNAL SALVATION. It is an invented doctrine. MY QUESTION IS WHY CAN SAVED PEOPLE LOSE THE KINGDOM? -- Herb Evans
Herb Evans said:BECAUSE THERE IS NO SCRIPTURE FOR SAVED PEOPLE LOSING THE KINGDOM OR ETERNAL SALVATION. It is an invented doctrine. MY QUESTION IS WHY CAN SAVED PEOPLE LOSE THE KINGDOM? -- Herb Evans
Gal 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, 20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, 21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
Ephesians 5 - 1-7
1 Be ye therefore followers of God, as dear children; 2 And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour.3 But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints; 4 Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks. 5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. 6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience. 7 Be not ye therefore partakers with them