Temporary Salvationist 1-8

You know for a person that got all up in arms when he was labeled a Ruckmanite you sure don't have a problem labeling people do you Herb. There's a word for that . . .

 

Herb, the reason I am trying to be so specific in nailing down your position is as follows:

If I understand your view correctly, then according to your view, there will be consequences to the new man at the judgment seat due to the sin committed by the old man in this life. The sin is gone, but the consequences to the new man are still there – the consequences of suffering the loss of reward. The fact that the Lord paid for the sins does not prevent the consequence of that sin from affecting the new man at the judgment seat.

If this is the case, then how can you say that the new man can not suffer other consequences, such as losing the kingdom, for the specific reason that Jesus paid for our sins? You agree (I think) that the new man in principle can suffer the loss of reward as a consequence for the old mans sin. You can (try to) use other scriptures to preach against losing the kingdom, or (try to) say that the loss of the kingdom is being read into here, but simply saying “I can’t lose the kingdom because Jesus died for my sins” just is not reasonable based on what your position regarding consequences to the new man at the judgment seat seems to be.

 

Perhaps you could explain the difference between 'worthless deeds/works that will be judged' and sins that won't be judged. This just seems to be an attempt to create a distinction where no distinction exists.

Romans 14:23 And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.

 

And since I might not be checking these for a couple of days, here's the next part. Does the experience of the believer Jonah have anything to teach a Christian, or do we just write it off as old testament?

Jonah in the belly of hell

Jonah 1:17-2:10 17 Now the LORD had prepared a great fish to swallow up Jonah. And Jonah was in the belly of the fish three days and three nights.
2:1 Then Jonah prayed unto the LORD his God out of the fish's belly,

Jonah was in the belly of the whale three days and three nights. After three days and three nights had passed, Jonah was alive in the whale and praying to God. Next is what Jonah said happened during those three days and nights:

2 And said, I cried by reason of mine affliction unto the LORD, and he heard me; out of the belly of hell cried I, and thou heardest my voice.

Here we have Jonah, crying by reason of affliction, from “the belly of hell.” Why was Jonah crying from the “belly of hell”? The next verses describe how he arrived there:

3 For thou hadst cast me into the deep, in the midst of the seas; and the floods compassed me about: all thy billows and thy waves passed over me.

Jonah is now under water in the sea.

4 Then I said, I am cast out of thy sight; yet I will look again toward thy holy temple.

Jonah realizes that he is in big trouble and purposes in his heart to look to God for help.

5 The waters compassed me about, even to the soul: the depth closed me round about, the weeds were wrapped about my head.

Now we see that the waters are compassing Jonah about even to the soul. Could it be that perhaps Jonah (as a type of the Lord) died?

6 I went down to the bottoms of the mountains; the earth with her bars was about me for ever: yet hast thou brought up my life from corruption, O LORD my God.

Yes, Jonah’s dead body, with seaweed wrapped about his head, was now at the bottom of the ocean, soon to be swallowed by a whale, where it would remain three days and three nights. The earth’s “bars” were about him for ever. Hell, located in the deep heart of the earth, has gates and it has bars. Jonah’s soul was indeed in the belly of hell. Job helps us understand what corruption means.

Job 17:13-16 If I wait, the grave is mine house: I have made my bed in the darkness.14 I have said to corruption, Thou art my father: to the worm, Thou art my mother, and my sister.15 And where is now my hope? as for my hope, who shall see it?16 They shall go down to the bars of the pit, when our rest together is in the dust.

Jonah’s life was brought up from the corruption of death. Unlike the Lord’s body, Jonah’s dead body saw corruption (the decay of death), and needed to be brought up from it. And unlike the Lord’s soul, Jonah’s soul was “afflicted” (v2) in hell. He wasn’t in paradise where Lazarus went (Luke 16:19ff) (there is no affliction there). The belly of hell was not only death or the grave (one’s dead body does not cry out from the grave). And the “belly of hell” could not have been simply a metaphorical reference to the belly of the whale, because Jonah “cried out” from the belly. We have already seen that Jonah was dead at this point, so Jonah’s dead body was not crying out from the belly of the whale. He was crying out from the hell where the rich man went. (Luke 16:19ff).

7 When my soul fainted within me I remembered the LORD: and my prayer came in unto thee, into thine holy temple.

God answered Jonah’s dying prayer, and brought him back to life after three days and nights. His soul was then reunited with his body (restored from the festering, stinking corruption of being dead three days) in the belly of the whale.

8 They that observe lying vanities forsake their own mercy.9 But I will sacrifice unto thee with the voice of thanksgiving; I will pay that that I have vowed. Salvation is of the LORD.10 And the LORD spake unto the fish, and it vomited out Jonah upon the dry land

Jonah, now alive in the belly of the whale, finishes his prayer started in verse 1. Next, the Lord put Jonah on dry land, ready to pay that which he vowed. Jonah was a believer, afflicted in hell. Take heed to his warning. Don’t observe lying vanities (such as God can not chasten believers after they die, OR all fornicators, etc. are just false professors and not true Christians, OR the warnings are only for the unsaved or tribulation Jews who are saved by faith and works, OR it’s just a parable - “doth he not speak in parables”), and thereby forsake your own mercy. Instead, repent, and rejoice with trembling, and serve the Lord with reverence and godly fear, for our God is love – but he is also a consuming fire.

P.S. Some realize that Jonah chapter 2 is clearly referring to an affliction in a literal hell. To try to escape from the idea of a believer in hell, they say that the quotations of Jonah are a prophecy that refers to the Lord’s suffering there, rather than Jonah’s. This is why I asked the opening question that I asked – I wanted the doctrine of the Lord suffering in hell immediately out in the open, if it were believed here.

 

Jonah was not praying for three days and nights in the whale. Jonah 1:17 simply says Jonah was in the belly of the fish three days and three nights. This statement alone is true whether Jonah was dead or alive. When we read further we see that he died. The chronology is Jonah was thrown overboard, he cried unto the Lord while he was under water, and he then had weeds wrapped about his head. He made a final dying prayer in 2:7 and he died. His body, which saw corruption and thus was dead, was swallowed by a whale. Jonah's corpse was in the whale for three days and three nights. In the meantime, Jonah went down to hell. The Lord, heard Jonah's dying prayer and answered it three days later by raising Jonah from the dead. Jonah was now alive in the whale's belly and praying to the Lord (2:1), relating everything that had just happened to him. At the conclusion of his prayer, he is vomitted out upon dry land.

So Jonah did not pray himself out of hell while he was in hell. His answered prayer was made while he was still alive. And he didn't cross the gulf himself, God took him out. God will take people out of hell at the great white throne judgment also; this is a good illustration of that.

 

Galations 5 and Ephesians 5.

This verse proves the audience is saved Cristians not "false professors" or jews in the trib", etc. (also see v 13)

These verses need no commentary.

Be YE not partakers with THEM. This is crystal clear. Let the wriggling begin.

Lacy