Temporary Salvationist 1-8

[Herb Evans]

Quote:

A man who has put off the old man and put on the new man will not be fulfilling the lusts of the flesh.

That is true, if you understood it properly. How long does the new man last? Can the old man come back (I believe he never leaves until death.)? Is it like alternating current, Old man, new man, old man, and etc. ad nauseam? -- Herb Evans


Herb, I think there comes a time when a saint will stop playing games with the Lord. Prove to me that a man cannot overcome sin in this life.

You are the one that is plaing games by wresting the scriptures to your own destruction. Prove to me that there are no people on Mars. The overcomers' cult does not realize that you overcome by the blood of the Lamb. -- Herb Evans


The man that fulfills the lust of the flesh will reap what he sows at the judgment seat of Christ.

No, at the JSOC, the old man will not be there. And the new man will not get any stripes or be killed or be thrown into hell fire or the lake of fire. That is all a figment of your imagination. and false doctrine. -- Herb Evans


No, Herb, now you are pontificating and interpolating. Show me a verse that says only your new man will be at the judgment seat of Christ? And even if you had a verse that said that, so what?

Rom. 6;6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.


Show me the verse that says the old man will be there. What does God want with the old man? The old man is crucified with Christ and to be counted dead. -- Herb Evans

2 Corinthians 5:10
10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

Whichever Herb appears at the judgment seat of Christ, whether he be new or old, is going to receive for the things done in the body! Do you expect that the new Herb will recieve accolades at the judgment seat of Christ for the things done in his old body? Then surely new Herb will receive for the bad things done in the body as well.

Herb Evans will receive wood, hay, and stubble rewards for whatever is bad and he will receive gold, silver, and precious stones for what is good. The wood, hay, and stubble will be burned but not the rest. What is done for Christ will last, and what is done for self will burn. That is the good and bad not sins. The sins have been taken care of at Calvary, past, present, and future. -- Hreb Evans

 

[James_Newman]

Quote:

A man who has put off the old man and put on the new man will not be fulfilling the lusts of the flesh.

That is true, if you understood it properly. How long does the new man last? Can the old man come back (I believe he never leaves until death.)? Is it like alternating current, Old man, new man, old man, and etc. ad nauseam? -- Herb Evans


Herb, I think there comes a time when a saint will stop playing games with the Lord. Prove to me that a man cannot overcome sin in this life.

You are the one that is plaing games by wresting the scriptures to your own destruction. Prove to me that there are no people on Mars. The overcomers' cult does not realize that you overcome by the blood of the Lamb. -- Herb Evans

Now you are just being silly, Herb. Of course we realize that it is by the blood of the lamb. We just go ahead and believe the bible when it tells us that blood will give us victory in this life.

John 8:31-36
31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;
32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
33 They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?
34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.
35 And the servant abideth not in the house forever: but the Son abideth ever.
36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

We reject the notion that sinful living is the lot of every Christian until the Lord comes to judge our flesh. That flesh is already crucified, if we would believe the bible. We are not any longer in bondage to sin, if we would stop sinning.

Romans 6:16
16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

We can pretend that we are serving God while we serve sin, that doesn't make it so. If we yield ourselves to serve sin, we are the servant of sin. How can we expect to receive the reward of a servant of righteousness?

I find it funny when you warn me that I am wresting scriptures to my destruction. How much wresting would a Christian have to do to be destroyed in your system? That wouldn't be destruction at the judgment seat, because it would be my old man that wrested the scriptures any way.

The man that fulfills the lust of the flesh will reap what he sows at the judgment seat of Christ.

No, at the JSOC, the old man will not be there. And the new man will not get any stripes or be killed or be thrown into hell fire or the lake of fire. That is all a figment of your imagination. and false doctrine. -- Herb Evans


No, Herb, now you are pontificating and interpolating. Show me a verse that says only your new man will be at the judgment seat of Christ? And even if you had a verse that said that, so what?

Rom. 6;6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.


Show me the verse that says the old man will be there. What does God want with the old man? The old man is crucified with Christ and to be counted dead. -- Herb Evans

If that old man is running around sinning like the devil, someone forgot to tell him that he was crucified.

2 Corinthians 5:10
10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

Whichever Herb appears at the judgment seat of Christ, whether he be new or old, is going to receive for the things done in the body! Do you expect that the new Herb will recieve accolades at the judgment seat of Christ for the things done in his old body? Then surely new Herb will receive for the bad things done in the body as well.

Herb Evans will receive wood, hay, and stubble rewards for whatever is bad and he will receive gold, silver, and precious stones for what is good. The wood, hay, and stubble will be burned but not the rest. What is done for Christ will last, and what is done for self will burn. That is the good and bad not sins. The sins have been taken care of at Calvary, past, present, and future. -- Hreb Evans

Pontiff Evans, thank you for that lovely eisegesis. But the bible says that you are going to recieve for your works, not that you are going to receive your works. If any man defiles the temple (what did you suppose they were building on that foundation?) with his wood hay or stubble, God will destroy that man.

 

[Lacy Evans]

Pontiff Evans, thank you for that lovely eisegesis. But the bible says that you are going to recieve for your works, not that you are going to receive your works. If any man defiles the temple (what did you suppose they were building on that foundation?) with his wood hay or stubble, God will destroy that man.

I thought I was Pontiff Evans.

Lacy

 

[Herb Evans]

Originally Posted by Herb Evans


A man who has put off the old man and put on the new man will not be fulfilling the lusts of the flesh.

That is true, if you understood it properly. How long does the new man last? Can the old man come back (I believe he never leaves until death.)? Is it like alternating current, Old man, new man, old man, and etc. ad nauseam? -- Herb Evans


Herb, I think there comes a time when a saint will stop playing games with the Lord. Prove to me that a man cannot overcome sin in this life. --Jim Newman

You are the one that is playing games by wresting the scriptures to your own destruction. Prove to me that there are no people on Mars. The overcomers' cult does not realize that you overcome by the blood of the Lamb. -- Herb Evans

Now you are just being silly, Herb. Of course we realize that it is by the blood of the lamb. We just go ahead and believe the bible when it tells us that blood will give us victory in this life. -- Jim Newman

That is not an argument; it is merely a statement of disagreement. We overcome everything by the blood of the Lamb, sin, this world, the devil, and that overcoming gains us eternal life and the kingdom, despite this watering down of yours. -- Herb Evans

John 8:31-36
31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;
32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
33 They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?
34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.
35 And the servant abideth not in the house forever: but the Son abideth ever.
36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed. -- Jim Newman


Very Good passage. I am free and you are not free. Discipleship and salvation are two different things. -- Herb Evans

We reject the notion that sinful living is the lot of every Christian until the Lord comes to judge our flesh. That flesh is already crucified, if we would believe the bible. We are not any longer in bondage to sin, if we would stop sinning. -- Jim Newman

How dows the Lord judge your flesh when you have a new body that never has sinned? If the flesh is already crucified, why are we told to mortify our members. You are right that we are no longer in bondage to sin, so why do you sin wilfully as you have rtold ius that you do? Do you stop sinning? Do you know anyone that has stopped sinning that has not yet died? -- Herb Evans

Romans 6:16
16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? -- Jim Newman

That is a good passage. The Christian has an option here, if he chooses sin, he is chastised and even killed. Nothing here about hell fire or kingdom exclusion. You Faustites read that into such passages. -- Herb Evans

We can pretend that we are serving God while we serve sin, that doesn't make it so. If we yield ourselves to serve sin, we are the servant of sin. How can we expect to receive the reward of a servant of righteousness? -- Jim Newman

You are correct here; You can expect to lose rewards if that is the case. That being said, the reward is not the kingdom or escaping hell fire, which you force into passages like this. -- Herb Evans

I find it funny when you warn me that I am wresting scriptures to my destruction. How much wresting would a Christian have to do to be destroyed in your system? -- Jim Newman

That depends on what you call destruction, which I am about to read. The only way a Christian is destroyed is by physical death or by the destruction of his life as a Christian. -- Herb Evans

That wouldn't be destruction at the judgment seat, because it would be my old man that wrested the scriptures any way. -- Jim Newman

That is Faustite jargon not Bible. Folks do not get destroyed, killed, or get stripes at the JSOC. -- Herb Evans

The man that fulfills the lust of the flesh will reap what he sows at the judgment seat of Christ. --Jim Newman

No, at the JSOC, the old man will not be there. And the new man will not get any stripes or be killed or be thrown into hell fire or the lake of fire. That is all a figment of your imagination. and false doctrine. -- Herb Evans


No, Herb, now you are pontificating and interpolating. Show me a verse that says only your new man will be at the judgment seat of Christ? And even if you had a verse that said that, so what? --Jim Newman

Rom. 6;6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.


Show me the verse that says the old man will be there. What does God want with the old man? The old man is crucified with Christ and to be counted dead. -- Herb Evans



If that old man is running around sinning like the devil, someone forgot to tell him that he was crucified. --Jim Newman


Again, the Christian is commanded to mortify his members. We are Crucified with Christ yet we live. -- Herb Evans

2 Corinthians 5:10
10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

Whichever Herb appears at the judgment seat of Christ, whether he be new or old, is going to receive for the things done in the body! Do you expect that the new Herb will recieve accolades at the judgment seat of Christ for the things done in his old body? Then surely new Herb will receive for the bad things done in the body as well. -- Jim Newman

Herb Evans will receive wood, hay, and stubble rewards for whatever is bad and he will receive gold, silver, and precious stones for what is good. The wood, hay, and stubble will be burned but not the rest. What is done for Christ will last, and what is done for self will burn. That is the good and bad not sins. The sins have been taken care of at Calvary, past, present, and future. -- Hreb Evans

Pontiff Evans, thank you for that lovely eisegesis. But the bible says that you are going to recieve for your works, not that you are going to receive your works. If any man defiles the temple (what did you suppose they were building on that foundation?) with his wood hay or stubble, God will destroy that man. -- Jim Newman

Herb Evans said that he would receive wood, hay, and stubble "REWARDS" and Gold, silver, and precious stone "REWARDS," i.e. works rewards.


The wood hay and stubble will be burned and herb Evans will suffer loss; the gold, silver, and precious stones shall abide. My works shall be revealed and tried by fire but not Herb Evans. Herb Evans was crucified on Calvary. But Herb Evans himself shall be saved so as by fire just like Noah was saved by water.

1 Cor. 3:11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
1Co 3:12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
1Co 3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
1Co 3:14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
1Co 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.


-- Herb Evans

 

[James_Newman]

Originally Posted by Herb Evans


A man who has put off the old man and put on the new man will not be fulfilling the lusts of the flesh.

That is true, if you understood it properly. How long does the new man last? Can the old man come back (I believe he never leaves until death.)? Is it like alternating current, Old man, new man, old man, and etc. ad nauseam? -- Herb Evans


Herb, I think there comes a time when a saint will stop playing games with the Lord. Prove to me that a man cannot overcome sin in this life. --Jim Newman

You are the one that is playing games by wresting the scriptures to your own destruction. Prove to me that there are no people on Mars. The overcomers' cult does not realize that you overcome by the blood of the Lamb. -- Herb Evans

Now you are just being silly, Herb. Of course we realize that it is by the blood of the lamb. We just go ahead and believe the bible when it tells us that blood will give us victory in this life. -- Jim Newman

That is not an argument; it is merely a statement of disagreement. We overcome everything by the blood of the Lamb, sin, this world, the devil, and that overcoming gains us eternal life and the kingdom, despite this watering down of yours. -- Herb Evans

The difference is my view of overcoming is literal, while you teach some type of mystical 'overcoming' that does not involve any actual victory over sin. I will overcome by availing myself of the grace of God. You overcome by boasting. Your overcoming is reminiscent of the Catholic transubstantiation. It looks like sin is reigning in our members, but trust me, we have overcome sin.

James 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: show me thy faith without thy works, and I will show thee my faith by my works.

What good is believing that you have overcome sin, if sin is reigning in your members?

John 8:31-36
31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;
32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
33 They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?
34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.
35 And the servant abideth not in the house forever: but the Son abideth ever.
36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed. -- Jim Newman


Very Good passage. I am free and you are not free. Discipleship and salvation are two different things. -- Herb Evans

Christ just said that if you sin, you are not free but you are the servant of sin.

We reject the notion that sinful living is the lot of every Christian until the Lord comes to judge our flesh. That flesh is already crucified, if we would believe the bible. We are not any longer in bondage to sin, if we would stop sinning. -- Jim Newman

How dows the Lord judge your flesh when you have a new body that never has sinned?

I'm pretty sure He can do whatever He says He will do, no matter what type of restrictions you try to impose on Him.

If the flesh is already crucified, why are we told to mortify our members.

I would ask the same of you. Mortifying our members is adding works to that faith.

James 2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

You are right that we are no longer in bondage to sin, so why do you sin wilfully as you have rtold ius that you do? Do you stop sinning?

I was just being honest in that I know God is still working some things in me. But by the grace of God I intend to go on to perfection. You don't know what God has already done in my life, and what giants of sin I have already slain. Likewise, Herb, I'm sure that God has done many things in your life and given you victory over sin many times. Why should you doubt that He is able to finish the good work that He has begun in you and I?

Do you know anyone that has stopped sinning that has not yet died? -- Herb Evans

I certainly know godly men who are not walking in open sins. Paul was able to say this at the end of his ministry:
2 Timothy 4:7-8
7 I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith:
8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.
Paul certainly could not have had this confidence if he was willfully sinning.

Romans 6:16
16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? -- Jim Newman

That is a good passage. The Christian has an option here, if he chooses sin, he is chastised and even killed. Nothing here about hell fire or kingdom exclusion. You Faustites read that into such passages. -- Herb Evans

I know you would like to limit chastening to this life, but you can't.
1 Corinthians 11:32
32 But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.

When are Christians judged? At the judgment seat of Christ.

We can pretend that we are serving God while we serve sin, that doesn't make it so. If we yield ourselves to serve sin, we are the servant of sin. How can we expect to receive the reward of a servant of righteousness? -- Jim Newman

You are correct here; You can expect to lose rewards if that is the case. That being said, the reward is not the kingdom or escaping hell fire, which you force into passages like this. -- Herb Evans

Colossians 3:24 Knowing that of the Lord ye shall receive the reward of the inheritance; for ye serve the Lord Christ.

What is the reward of the inheritance, if it is not inheriting the kingdom?

James 2:5 Hearken, my beloved brethren, Hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him?

John 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me...

I find it funny when you warn me that I am wresting scriptures to my destruction. How much wresting would a Christian have to do to be destroyed in your system? -- Jim Newman

That depends on what you call destruction, which I am about to read. The only way a Christian is destroyed is by physical death or by the destruction of his life as a Christian. -- Herb Evans

That wouldn't be destruction at the judgment seat, because it would be my old man that wrested the scriptures any way. -- Jim Newman

That is Faustite jargon not Bible. Folks do not get destroyed, killed, or get stripes at the JSOC. -- Herb Evans

2 Timothy 4:1
1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;

1 Corinthians 11:31-32
31 For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged.
32 But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.

2 Corinthians 5:10-11
10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
11 Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.

James 2:13-14
13 For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath showed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment.
14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

 

[Herb Evans]

A man who has put off the old man and put on the new man will not be fulfilling the lusts of the flesh. -- Jim newman

That is true, if you understood it properly. How long does the new man last? Can the old man come back (I believe he never leaves until death.)? Is it like alternating current, Old man, new man, old man, and etc. ad nauseam? -- Herb Evans

Herb, I think there comes a time when a saint will stop playing games with the Lord. Prove to me that a man cannot overcome sin in this life. --Jim Newman

You are the one that is playing games by wresting the scriptures to your own destruction. Prove to me that there are no people on Mars. The overcomers' cult does not realize that you overcome by the blood of the Lamb. -- Herb Evans

Now you are just being silly, Herb. Of course we realize that it is by the blood of the lamb. We just go ahead and believe the bible when it tells us that blood will give us victory in this life. -- Jim Newman

That is not an argument; it is merely a statement of disagreement. We overcome everything by the blood of the Lamb, sin, this world, the devil, and that overcoming gains us eternal life and the kingdom, despite this watering down of yours. -- Herb Evans


The difference is my view of overcoming is literal, while you teach some type of mystical 'overcoming' that does not involve any actual victory over sin. I will overcome by availing myself of the grace of God. You overcome by boasting. Your overcoming is reminiscent of the Catholic transubstantiation. It looks like sin is reigning in our members, but trust me, we have overcome sin. -- Jim Newman

Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

The blood of Jesus Christ is the grace of God. Our boast and trust is in Jesus Christ and the God that KEEPS us and not we ourselves. We believe in Christ righteousness and do not go about to establish our own righteousness, since God works in us and through us. – Herb Evans

1Jo 2:13 I write unto you, young men, because ye have overcome the wicked one. I write unto you, little children, because ye have known the Father. I have written unto you, young men, because ye are strong, and the word of God abideth in you, and ye have overcome the wicked one. – 1 John 2:13,14


Unlike Faustites, Bible believers are said to have already overcome the wicked one positionally. They do not have to walk a tight rope and wait to see if they have enough to get in or enough to be kept out, reminicant of Catholic doctrine. – Herb Evans

1Jo 4:4 Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them [spirits of antichrist]: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

Besides the blood of the Lamb, believers overcome by the one that is in them that is greater than the world, the Holy Spirit.

Obviously Mr. Faustite does not believe these passages to be literal. I guess he thinks that they are symbolic. -- Herb Evans

What good is believing that you have overcome sin, if sin is reigning in your members? -- Jim Newman

Believing overcomes sin for salvation, why not for the kingdom? If you have sinned and sinned willfully as you have admitted, sin has reigned in your members. Oh yes, there are many passages that teach us to avoid sin and to abstain from sin and to mortify our members, but instructions and commands are not automatic conditions for gaining the kingdom or salvation. Faustites cannot grasp that. – Herb Evans

James 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: show me thy faith without thy works, and I will show thee my faith by my works. – Jim Newman


A workless faith is a worthless faith and is no faith at all. A workless faith is a dead faith; real believers have a living faith that works. Jame’s ’s appeal here is to those that they merely say that they have faith and do not. False professors abounded then and now. Nothing here about the kingdom exclusion or hel fire for the true believer, just another Faustite manipulated passage to promote their views. – Herb Evans

 

[Herb Evans]

John 8:31-36
31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;
32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
33 They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?
34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.
35 And the servant abideth not in the house forever: but the Son abideth ever.
36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed. -- Jim Newman


Very Good passage. I am free and you are not free. Discipleship and salvation are two different things. -- Herb Evans


Christ just said that if you sin, you are not free but you are the servant of sin. – Jim Newman

My, that is a pretty skimpy commentary 6 verses. I am free regardless of anything, because I am saved. Again servant ship and discipleship is not salvation requirements nor is it kingdom entrance requirements. When you committed sin and wilful sin as you admitted, where you the servant of sin? Was the new man (if there is one) the servant of sin? Faustites like to turn every sin passage and servant passage and every command and instruction into conditions or requirements for kingdom entrance. They are like Cambellites that see baptism everywhere there is water. – Herb Evans


We reject the notion that sinful living is the lot of every Christian until the Lord comes to judge our flesh. That flesh is already crucified, if we would believe the bible. We are not any longer in bondage to sin, if we would stop sinning. -- Jim Newman

How does the Lord judge your flesh when you have a new body that never has sinned? – Herb Evans


I'm pretty sure He can do whatever He says He will do, no matter what type of restrictions you try to impose on Him. – Jim Newman

Your only problem here is that God does not say it anywhere. I am not imposing restrictions on God; you are as you wrest his word to your own destruction. – Herb Evans

I would ask the same of you. Mortifying our members is adding works to that faith. – Jim Newman

Oh, but we are to add works to our faith but not for salvation or for kingdom entrance. Every scripture that you use for kingdom entrance has been used by “lose your salvationists for avoiding losing their salvation. My point is that you must continually mortify your members and DIE DAILY for the proper Christian walk. – Herb Evans

James 2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? – Jim Newman

Again, it says a “man” (not a believer) is only saying that he has faith but has no works. That kind of faith cannot save him. But save him from what? You Faustites claim that you are eternally saved but you erase the distinction between that and kingdom exclusion in the verses that you use. Saved from what here? The answer to James’ question is that it profiteth nothing just to say it. – Herb Evans


You are right that we are no longer in bondage to sin, so why do you sin willfully as you have told us that you do? Do you stop sinning? –Herb Evans


I was just being honest in that I know God is still working some things in me. But by the grace of God I intend to go on to perfection. You don't know what God has already done in my life, and what giants of sin I have already slain. Likewise, Herb, I'm sure that God has done many things in your life and given you victory over sin many times. Why should you doubt that He is able to finish the good work that He has begun in you and I? – Jim Newman

Let me know when you get to perfection. Since you know that you are not there yet, how will you know when you get there? Victory is not the same as attaining the kingdom by works any more than it is attaining eternal salvation by works. – Herb Evans


Do you know anyone that has stopped sinning that has not yet died? -- Herb Evans


I certainly know godly men who are not walking in open sins. –Jim Newman

I do too, some of them are Joey Faust’s friends. – Herb Evans

Paul was able to say this at the end of his ministry:

2 Timothy 4:7-8
7 I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith:
8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.

Paul certainly could not have had this confidence if he was willfully sinning. – Jim Newman

I did not ask you about Paul who had his end revealed to him. Do you not know any Faustite that does not willfully sin? Besides Paul was not talking about sin, he was talking about keeping the faith. Because you sin, doe that mean you are not keeping the faith? – Herb Evans

Romans 6:16
16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? -- Jim Newman

That is a good passage. The Christian has an option here, if he chooses sin, he is chastised and even killed. Nothing here about hell fire or kingdom exclusion. You Faustites read that into such passages. -- Herb Evans


I know you would like to limit chastening to this life, but you can't.


1 Corinthians 11:32
32 But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world. – Jim Newman

No, Faustite must extend earthly chastening to the JSOC. But this passage does not say when we shall be judged; it says when we ARE judged, we ARE chastened of the Lord. The reason is the very reason that you gainsay, that we should not be condemned with the world. To avoid this judgment her on earth, we are to judge ourselves (11:31), note that there were many sickly and dying among them (11:30) here on earth not at the JSOC. More Faustite manipulation and context violation. – Herb Evans

When are Christians judged? At the judgment seat of Christ. –Jim Newman

That is a half truth, since we are also judged here on earth. You Faustites love to deal in half truths. – Herb Evans

 

[Herb Evans]

We can pretend that we are serving God while we serve sin, that doesn't make it so. If we yield ourselves to serve sin, we are the servant of sin. How can we expect to receive the reward of a servant of righteousness? -- Jim Newman

You are correct here; You can expect to lose rewards if that is the case. That being said, the reward is not the kingdom or escaping hell fire, which you force into passages like this. -- Herb Evans


Colossians 3:24 Knowing that of the Lord ye shall receive the reward of the inheritance; for ye serve the Lord Christ.

What is the reward of the inheritance, if it is not inheriting the kingdom? – Jim Newman
The inheritance OF the kingdom is based on being saved. The reward OF that inheritance is another matter. But you said that you don’t know if you are going to make the kingdom. This passage is telling folks that they are “KNOWING” that of the Lord ye shall receive the reward of the inheritance. You can’t have it both ways. Still, following heretic Faust and following Christ are two different things. Now, go back and get some more pointers from Faust who is reading this debate. – Herb Evans

James 2:5 Hearken, my beloved brethren, Hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him?

John 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me... – Jim Newman
The bible tells us that we love him because he loved us. That happens at salvation. We are heirs of the kingdom because of that faith salvation. He has promised us that love him the kingdom. Now, you are into the miss and match scripture thing that Faustites love to do. The second verse has to do with a positive statement about those that have His commandments and keep them that it is they that love Him and SHOW their love for Him by doing so. But again, this verse has nothing to do with your first verse. You have forced it there; it is not remotely in the context of what the first verse says. This is a Faustite trick, creating a syllogism from two distant verses. Still, John 14:21 has nothing about kingdom “exclusion” and neither does James 2:5. That is something that Faustites interpolate into the passages. – Herb Evan

I find it funny when you warn me that I am wresting scriptures to my destruction. How much wresting would a Christian have to do to be destroyed in your system? -- Jim Newman

That depends on what you call destruction, which I am about to read. The only way a Christian is destroyed is by physical death or by the destruction of his life as a Christian. -- Herb Evans

That wouldn't be destruction at the judgment seat, because it would be my old man that wrested the scriptures any way. -- Jim Newman

That is Faustite jargon not Bible. Folks do not get destroyed, killed, or get stripes at the JSOC. -- Herb Evans


2 Timothy 4:1
1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;

Do you just fling scriptures now without any rationale’? What has this to do with our issue? I believe the JSOC occurs at His appearing. – Herb Evans

1 Corinthians 11:31-32
31 For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged.
32 But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.

You are repeating yourself here. Again, this judgment is here on earth. They were sick and dying in 11:30. You are again mixing and matching passages that have nothing to do with one another and have no remote context connection. – Herb Evans

 

[Herb Evans]

2 Corinthians 5:10-11
10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
11 Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences. – Jim Newman

Now, here is where Faustites go into there pontificated interpolation which says that the terror of the Lord here is being killed at the JSOC and thrown into hell fire and be excluded from the kingdom after they have received stripes. Now does it say that Mel? Can it not mean anything else but hell fire and being killed at the JSOC? And where is this persuading of men due to the terror of the Lord. And who are persuaded? – Herb Evans

Gen 35:5 And they journeyed: and the terror of God was upon the cities that were round about them, and they did not pursue after the sons of Jacob.

Lev 26:16 I also will do this unto you; I will even appoint over you terror, consumption, and the burning ague, that shall consume the eyes, and cause sorrow of heart: and ye shall sow your seed in vain, for your enemies shall eat it.

Deu 34:12 And in all that mighty hand, and in all the great terror which Moses shewed in the sight of all Israel.

Jos 2:9 And she said unto the men, I know that the LORD hath given you the land, and that your terror is fallen upon us, and that all the inhabitants of the land faint because of you.

sa 19:17 And the land of Judah shall be a terror unto Egypt, every one that maketh mention thereof shall be afraid in himself, because of the counsel of the LORD of hosts, which he hath determined against it.

Jer 32:21 And hast brought forth thy people Israel out of the land of Egypt with signs, and with wonders, and with a strong hand, and with a stretched out arm, and with great terror;

Eze 32:32 For I have caused my terror in the land of the living: and he shall be laid in the midst of the uncircumcised with them that are slain with the sword, even Pharaoh and all his multitude, saith the Lord GOD.

Rom 13:3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same: -- Herb Evans


James 2:13-14
13 For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath showed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment.
14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? – Jim Newman

You like to fling verses without rationale’. I guess you have learned not to commit too much in your comments. Of course, I know you would have me to believe that this refers to kingdom exclusion and hell fire for the millennium. But it is not there! And again, you like to leave off verses and snatch passages out of context.

The subject of James two is having respect of persons and the royal law of loving our neighbor as our self 2:1-9, which neither you, Faust, nor I ever fully do. Next they are told about law keeping that if you offend in one point you are guilty of all (2:10).
So, it is here in 2:11 that your gross sins argument falls apart, for killing and adultery are included in the whole law.

Now, allow me to fling the important verse that you left out ,without rationale’, and you can go and learn what that meaneth.

Jam 2:12 So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.

– Herb Evans

 

[James_Newman]

A man who has put off the old man and put on the new man will not be fulfilling the lusts of the flesh. -- Jim newman

That is true, if you understood it properly. How long does the new man last? Can the old man come back (I believe he never leaves until death.)? Is it like alternating current, Old man, new man, old man, and etc. ad nauseam? -- Herb Evans

Herb, I think there comes a time when a saint will stop playing games with the Lord. Prove to me that a man cannot overcome sin in this life. --Jim Newman

You are the one that is playing games by wresting the scriptures to your own destruction. Prove to me that there are no people on Mars. The overcomers' cult does not realize that you overcome by the blood of the Lamb. -- Herb Evans

Now you are just being silly, Herb. Of course we realize that it is by the blood of the lamb. We just go ahead and believe the bible when it tells us that blood will give us victory in this life. -- Jim Newman

That is not an argument; it is merely a statement of disagreement. We overcome everything by the blood of the Lamb, sin, this world, the devil, and that overcoming gains us eternal life and the kingdom, despite this watering down of yours. -- Herb Evans


The difference is my view of overcoming is literal, while you teach some type of mystical 'overcoming' that does not involve any actual victory over sin. I will overcome by availing myself of the grace of God. You overcome by boasting. Your overcoming is reminiscent of the Catholic transubstantiation. It looks like sin is reigning in our members, but trust me, we have overcome sin. -- Jim Newman

Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

The blood of Jesus Christ is the grace of God. Our boast and trust is in Jesus Christ and the God that KEEPS us and not we ourselves. We believe in Christ righteousness and do not go about to establish our own righteousness, since God works in us and through us. – Herb Evans

1Jo 2:13 I write unto you, young men, because ye have overcome the wicked one. I write unto you, little children, because ye have known the Father. I have written unto you, young men, because ye are strong, and the word of God abideth in you, and ye have overcome the wicked one. – 1 John 2:13,14


Unlike Faustites, Bible believers are said to have already overcome the wicked one positionally. They do not have to walk a tight rope and wait to see if they have enough to get in or enough to be kept out, reminicant of Catholic doctrine. – Herb Evans

1Jo 4:4 Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them [spirits of antichrist]: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

Besides the blood of the Lamb, believers overcome by the one that is in them that is greater than the world, the Holy Spirit.

Obviously Mr. Faustite does not believe these passages to be literal. I guess he thinks that they are symbolic. -- Herb Evans

What good is believing that you have overcome sin, if sin is reigning in your members? -- Jim Newman

Believing overcomes sin for salvation, why not for the kingdom? If you have sinned and sinned willfully as you have admitted, sin has reigned in your members. Oh yes, there are many passages that teach us to avoid sin and to abstain from sin and to mortify our members, but instructions and commands are not automatic conditions for gaining the kingdom or salvation. Faustites cannot grasp that. – Herb Evans

Believing overcomes sin positionally, why not practically? Rev 12:11 says they loved not their lives unto death. That sounds practical to me.

James 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: show me thy faith without thy works, and I will show thee my faith by my works. – Jim Newman


A workless faith is a worthless faith and is no faith at all. A workless faith is a dead faith; real believers have a living faith that works. Jame’s ’s appeal here is to those that they merely say that they have faith and do not. False professors abounded then and now. Nothing here about the kingdom exclusion or hel fire for the true believer, just another Faustite manipulated passage to promote their views. – Herb Evans

So now we are going to run to the other side. If you aren't working, you aren't really a believer. Never mind that you argued that a believer can sin like the devil and still inherit the kingdom. You just have to have good works first, to prove you are a believer. So we work for our eternal salvation, and the kingdom is thrown in for free like the prize in a happy meal. Thats pretty funny, Herb. How many works do I have to have to prove I am saved? The truth is a workless faith is still faith, even if it is 'dead, being alone'. Do we get saved by 'faith alone' or do we get saved by faith plus works?

 

[James_Newman]

We can pretend that we are serving God while we serve sin, that doesn't make it so. If we yield ourselves to serve sin, we are the servant of sin. How can we expect to receive the reward of a servant of righteousness? -- Jim Newman

You are correct here; You can expect to lose rewards if that is the case. That being said, the reward is not the kingdom or escaping hell fire, which you force into passages like this. -- Herb Evans


Colossians 3:24 Knowing that of the Lord ye shall receive the reward of the inheritance; for ye serve the Lord Christ.

What is the reward of the inheritance, if it is not inheriting the kingdom? – Jim Newman
The inheritance OF the kingdom is based on being saved. The reward OF that inheritance is another matter. But you said that you don’t know if you are going to make the kingdom. This passage is telling folks that they are “KNOWING” that of the Lord ye shall receive the reward of the inheritance. You can’t have it both ways. Still, following heretic Faust and following Christ are two different things. Now, go back and get some more pointers from Faust who is reading this debate. – Herb Evans

So, once again, you claim we work for salvation, and get the kingdom free since the kindom is based on being saved, and salvation is based on having a 'living faith that works'. But what this passage is really saying is this:

Colossians 3:17-25
17 And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him.
18 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as it is fit in the Lord.
19 Husbands, love your wives, and be not bitter against them.
20 Children, obey your parents in all things: for this is well pleasing unto the Lord.
21 Fathers, provoke not your children to anger, lest they be discouraged.
22 Servants, obey in all things your masters according to the flesh; not with eyeservice, as menpleasers; but in singleness of heart, fearing God:
23 And whatsoever ye do, do it heartily, as to the Lord, and not unto men;
24 Knowing that of the Lord ye shall receive the reward of the inheritance; for ye serve the Lord Christ.
25 But he that doeth wrong shall receive for the wrong which he hath done; and there is no respect of persons.

Do these things (submit to your husbands, love your wives, obey your parents, obey your masters) knowing that you will be rewarded for doing so. Reward is according to works.But if you don't do these things, and instead do wrong, you will receive for the wrong that you do. Not 'you will receive the kingdom, just a little lower than the least in the kingdom.'

James 2:5 Hearken, my beloved brethren, Hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him?

John 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me... – Jim Newman
The bible tells us that we love him because he loved us. That happens at salvation. We are heirs of the kingdom because of that faith salvation. He has promised us that love him the kingdom. Now, you are into the miss and match scripture thing that Faustites love to do. The second verse has to do with a positive statement about those that have His commandments and keep them that it is they that love Him and SHOW their love for Him by doing so. But again, this verse has nothing to do with your first verse. You have forced it there; it is not remotely in the context of what the first verse says. This is a Faustite trick, creating a syllogism from two distant verses. Still, John 14:21 has nothing about kingdom “exclusion” and neither does James 2:5. That is something that Faustites interpolate into the passages. – Herb Evan

The miss and match scripture thing?

Isaiah 28:9-10
9 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts.
10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:

I show you that Jesus says the man that keeps his commandments is the man that loves him, and you accuse me of forcing that into the context of James 2:5? I guess the love James is talking about must be that secret love, like the kind Peter had when he denied Christ three times. We love Him because He first loved us, but if we don't keep His commandments, we don't love Him. We may pay lip service to Him, but thats not bible love, brother.

I find it funny when you warn me that I am wresting scriptures to my destruction. How much wresting would a Christian have to do to be destroyed in your system? -- Jim Newman

That depends on what you call destruction, which I am about to read. The only way a Christian is destroyed is by physical death or by the destruction of his life as a Christian. -- Herb Evans

That wouldn't be destruction at the judgment seat, because it would be my old man that wrested the scriptures any way. -- Jim Newman

That is Faustite jargon not Bible. Folks do not get destroyed, killed, or get stripes at the JSOC. -- Herb Evans


2 Timothy 4:1
1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;

Do you just fling scriptures now without any rationale’? What has this to do with our issue? I believe the JSOC occurs at His appearing. – Herb Evans

1 Corinthians 11:31-32
31 For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged.
32 But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.

You are repeating yourself here. Again, this judgment is here on earth. They were sick and dying in 11:30. You are again mixing and matching passages that have nothing to do with one another and have no remote context connection. – Herb Evans

The context is judgment, Herb.

 

[James_Newman]

2 Corinthians 5:10-11
10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
11 Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences. – Jim Newman

Now, here is where Faustites go into there pontificated interpolation which says that the terror of the Lord here is being killed at the JSOC and thrown into hell fire and be excluded from the kingdom after they have received stripes. Now does it say that Mel? Can it not mean anything else but hell fire and being killed at the JSOC? And where is this persuading of men due to the terror of the Lord. And who are persuaded? – Herb Evans

The persuading is in verse 10, and it is to Christians. What is the therefore there for? Whatever the terror is, it is at the judgment seat of Christ.

Gen 35:5 And they journeyed: and the terror of God was upon the cities that were round about them, and they did not pursue after the sons of Jacob.

Lev 26:16 I also will do this unto you; I will even appoint over you terror, consumption, and the burning ague, that shall consume the eyes, and cause sorrow of heart: and ye shall sow your seed in vain, for your enemies shall eat it.

Deu 34:12 And in all that mighty hand, and in all the great terror which Moses shewed in the sight of all Israel.

Jos 2:9 And she said unto the men, I know that the LORD hath given you the land, and that your terror is fallen upon us, and that all the inhabitants of the land faint because of you.

sa 19:17 And the land of Judah shall be a terror unto Egypt, every one that maketh mention thereof shall be afraid in himself, because of the counsel of the LORD of hosts, which he hath determined against it.

Jer 32:21 And hast brought forth thy people Israel out of the land of Egypt with signs, and with wonders, and with a strong hand, and with a stretched out arm, and with great terror;

Eze 32:32 For I have caused my terror in the land of the living: and he shall be laid in the midst of the uncircumcised with them that are slain with the sword, even Pharaoh and all his multitude, saith the Lord GOD.

Rom 13:3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same: -- Herb Evans


James 2:13-14
13 For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath showed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment.
14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? – Jim Newman

You like to fling verses without rationale’. I guess you have learned not to commit too much in your comments. Of course, I know you would have me to believe that this refers to kingdom exclusion and hell fire for the millennium. But it is not there! And again, you like to leave off verses and snatch passages out of context.

No, I have just learned that in the multitude of words there wanteth not sin.

The subject of James two is having respect of persons and the royal law of loving our neighbor as our self 2:1-9, which neither you, Faust, nor I ever fully do. Next they are told about law keeping that if you offend in one point you are guilty of all (2:10).
So, it is here in 2:11 that your gross sins argument falls apart, for killing and adultery are included in the whole law.

Now, allow me to fling the important verse that you left out ,without rationale’, and you can go and learn what that meaneth.

Jam 2:12 So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.

– Herb Evans

Why don't you explain what it means to be judged by the law of liberty?

 

[Herb Evans]

James_Newman]The persuading is in verse 10, and it is to Christians. What is the therefore there for? Whatever the terror is, it is at the judgment seat of Christ.



No, I have just learned that in the multitude of words there wanteth not sin.


Oh, we are going to persuade Christians at the JSOC? That is interesting! If the terror of the Lord is at the JSOC, how did they know the terror of the Lord not yet being there? Huh?-- Herb Evans


Why don't you explain what it means to be judged by the law of liberty? -- Jim Newman

Ah! Don't like me to verse fling without an explanation. Well, you fo first and exegete the one that you flung.

Seems like you lost your taste for point/counterpoint discussion and now are selectively picking and choosing. -- Herb Evans
-- Herb Evans

 

[Herb Evans]

James 2:5 Hearken, my beloved brethren, Hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him?

John 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me... – Jim Newman

The bible tells us that we love him because he loved us. That happens at salvation. We are heirs of the kingdom because of that faith salvation. He has promised us that love him the kingdom. Now, you are into the miss and match scripture thing that Faustites love to do. The second verse has to do with a positive statement about those that have His commandments and keep them that it is they that love Him and SHOW their love for Him by doing so. But again, this verse has nothing to do with your first verse. You have forced it there; it is not remotely in the context of what the first verse says. This is a Faustite trick, creating a syllogism from two distant verses. Still, John 14:21 has nothing about kingdom “exclusion” and neither does James 2:5. That is something that Faustites interpolate into the passages. – Herb Evan

The miss and match scripture thing? - Jim Newcom

Yes, you and your teacher both mix and match and miss. You are triple threats -- Herb Evans

Isaiah 28:9-10
9 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts.
10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little: -- Jim Newcom

Aw c'mon with the platitudes. Stick to the discussion. I am on to the deception. -- Herb Evans

I show you that Jesus says the man that keeps his commandments is the man that loves him, and you accuse me of forcing that into the context of James 2:5? -- Jim Newcom

Yes, I do. The one is talking about the end of those who love Him. The other is talking about obedient love. -- Herb Evans

I guess the love James is talking about must be that secret love, like the kind Peter had when he denied Christ three times.

Sarcasm is no argument. Peter did love the Lord but fouled out, and he never went to hell fire. -- Herb Evans

We love Him because He first loved us, . . . Jim

Yes, indeed! -- Herb Evans

. . .but . . . -- Jim

There is that Billy Goat Faustism. But, But, But . . . -- Herb Evans

. . . if we don't keep His commandments, we don't love Him. We may pay lip service to Him, but thats not bible love, brother.

You are a liar! I love Him and I do not always keep His commandments and you don't either. The weakness of the flesh cause many Christians to foul out. -- Herb Evans

Quote:
I find it funny when you warn me that I am wresting scriptures to my destruction. How much wresting would a Christian have to do to be destroyed in your system? -- Jim Newman


Quote:
That depends on what you call destruction, which I am about to read. The only way a Christian is destroyed is by physical death or by the destruction of his life as a Christian. -- Herb Evans

That wouldn't be destruction at the judgment seat, because it would be my old man that wrested the scriptures any way. -- Jim Newman

That is Faustite jargon not Bible. Folks do not get destroyed, killed, or get stripes at the JSOC. -- Herb Evans

2 Timothy 4:1
1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;

Do you just fling scriptures now without any rationale’? What has this to do with our issue? I believe the JSOC occurs at His appearing. – Herb Evans

1 Corinthians 11:31-32
31 For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged.
32 But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.

You are repeating yourself here. Again, this judgment is here on earth. They were sick and dying in 11:30. You are again mixing and matching passages that have nothing to do with one another and have no remote context connection. – Herb Evans



The context is judgment, Herb. -- Jim Newcom

So, you are going to ignore judgment of the church on earth that they get sick and die in 11:30 to force your ideas into 11:32. The context is judgment but it is here and not up there. You got caught in another Faust manipulation. -- Herb Evans

 

[Herb Evans]

So, once again, you claim we work for salvation, and get the kingdom free since the kindom is based on being saved, and salvation is based on having a 'living faith that works'. But what this passage is really saying is this: -- Jim Newman

This is a laugh if it was not so pitiful that you cannot read and cannot understand what someone is saying. Now, read my lips,

1. Salvation is free, and we do not work for it.
2. The Kingdom is free, and you we do not work for it.

Both are in, through, and by the Lord Jesus Christ and are not of ourselves. -- Hreb Evans

 

[James_Newman]

James_Newman][/font][/color][/b]The persuading is in verse 10, and it is to Christians. What is the therefore there for? Whatever the terror is, it is at the judgment seat of Christ.


No, I have just learned that in the multitude of words there wanteth not sin.

Oh, we are going to persuade Christians at the JSOC? That is interesting! If the terror of the Lord is at the JSOC, how did they know the terror of the Lord not yet being there? Huh?-- Herb Evans

The same way I know it, Herb, by faith believing the word of God. I don't have to visit to know that hell is hot.

Why don't you explain what it means to be judged by the law of liberty?

Ah! Don't like me to verse fling without an explanation. Well, you fo first and exegete the one that you flung. -- Herb Evans

How about I address the one you think cancels out all the warnings of judgment.

James 2:10-13
10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
11 For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.
12 So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.
13 For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath showed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment.

What part of verse 12 makes you think that there will be no judgment for those that are judged by the law of liberty? Why do you think that the judgment without mercy in verse 13 will not be carried out under the law of liberty? Should the standard be less strict for one who has been freed from sin?

Matthew 5:27-28
27 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery: (The law of Moses)
28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart. (Could this be the law of liberty?)

 

[Herb Evans]

Originally Posted by Herb Evans


A man who has put off the old man and put on the new man will not be fulfilling the lusts of the flesh. -- Jim newman

That is true, if you understood it properly. How long does the new man last? Can the old man come back (I believe he never leaves until death.)? Is it like alternating current, Old man, new man, old man, and etc. ad nauseam? -- Herb Evans

Herb, I think there comes a time when a saint will stop playing games with the Lord. Prove to me that a man cannot overcome sin in this life. --Jim Newman

You are the one that is playing games by wresting the scriptures to your own destruction. Prove to me that there are no people on Mars. The overcomers' cult does not realize that you overcome by the blood of the Lamb. -- Herb Evans

Now you are just being silly, Herb. Of course we realize that it is by the blood of the lamb. We just go ahead and believe the bible when it tells us that blood will give us victory in this life. -- Jim Newman

That is not an argument; it is merely a statement of disagreement. We overcome everything by the blood of the Lamb, sin, this world, the devil, and that overcoming gains us eternal life and the kingdom, despite this watering down of yours. -- Herb Evans


The difference is my view of overcoming is literal, while you teach some type of mystical 'overcoming' that does not involve any actual victory over sin. I will overcome by availing myself of the grace of God. You overcome by boasting. Your overcoming is reminiscent of the Catholic transubstantiation. It looks like sin is reigning in our members, but trust me, we have overcome sin. -- Jim Newman

Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

The blood of Jesus Christ is the grace of God. Our boast and trust is in Jesus Christ and the God that KEEPS us and not we ourselves. We believe in Christ righteousness and do not go about to establish our own righteousness, since God works in us and through us. – Herb Evans

1Jo 2:13 I write unto you, young men, because ye have overcome the wicked one. I write unto you, little children, because ye have known the Father. I have written unto you, young men, because ye are strong, and the word of God abideth in you, and ye have overcome the wicked one. – 1 John 2:13,14


Unlike Faustites, Bible believers are said to have already overcome the wicked one positionally. They do not have to walk a tight rope and wait to see if they have enough to get in or enough to be kept out, reminicant of Catholic doctrine. – Herb Evans

1Jo 4:4 Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them [spirits of antichrist]: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

Besides the blood of the Lamb, believers overcome by the one that is in them that is greater than the world, the Holy Spirit.

Obviously Mr. Faustite does not believe these passages to be literal. I guess he thinks that they are symbolic. -- Herb Evans

What good is believing that you have overcome sin, if sin is reigning in your members? -- Jim Newman

Believing overcomes sin for salvation, why not for the kingdom? If you have sinned and sinned willfully as you have admitted, sin has reigned in your members. Oh yes, there are many passages that teach us to avoid sin and to abstain from sin and to mortify our members, but instructions and commands are not automatic conditions for gaining the kingdom or salvation. Faustites cannot grasp that. – Herb Evans



Believing overcomes sin positionally, why not practically? Rev 12:11 says they loved not their lives unto death. That sounds practical to me.

Now, what in the world does rev. 12:11 in the tribulation have to do with what we are talking about? Believing doe not take care of the practical sin problem that is why we must confess our sins, and if we say that we have no sin the truth is not in us. Believing never took care of the sin and sinning wilfully that you admitted to. -- Herb Evans


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James 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: show me thy faith without thy works, and I will show thee my faith by my works. – Jim Newman


A workless faith is a worthless faith and is no faith at all. A workless faith is a dead faith; real believers have a living faith that works. Jame’s ’s appeal here is to those that they merely say that they have faith and do not. False professors abounded then and now. Nothing here about the kingdom exclusion or hel fire for the true believer, just another Faustite manipulated passage to promote their views. – Herb Evans
So now we are going to run to the other side. If you aren't working, you aren't really a believer.

Never said that! That is your characterization of what I said. You aren't really a believer if you have a dead faith. A workless faith. -- Herb Evans

Never mind that you argued that a believer can sin like the devil and still inherit the kingdom.

Yes, never mind that, for it is true for salvation and the kingdom, but for some reason, you think that the kingdom is more serious than eternal salvation in your 2 plan of salvation thingie! -- Herb Evans

You just have to have good works first, to prove you are a believer.

Well, if you accept folks' claim of salvation without any works, all the power to you. be my guest. I don't accept your claim to salvation or the kingdom due to your wicked false doctrine and heresy. To me that is worse than any bad works that you have done. -- Herb Evans

So we work for our eternal salvation, and the kingdom is thrown in for free like the prize in a happy meal.

Where in the world are you getting that. I don't work for either eternal salvation or kingdom salvation in your second plan. Are you that blind that you can't grasp that? -- Herb Evans

Thats pretty funny, Herb. How many works do I have to have to prove I am saved? The truth is a workless faith is still faith, even if it is 'dead, being alone'. Do we get saved by 'faith alone' or do we get saved by faith plus works?

What is funny is your failure to both comprehend the scriptures and me, if it were not so tragic. No dead faith and workless faith is not faith at all, the point that James is trying get through to some folks that are merely claiming it. -- Herb Evans

 

[James_Newman]

James 2:5 Hearken, my beloved brethren, Hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him?

John 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me... – Jim Newman

The bible tells us that we love him because he loved us. That happens at salvation. We are heirs of the kingdom because of that faith salvation. He has promised us that love him the kingdom. Now, you are into the miss and match scripture thing that Faustites love to do. The second verse has to do with a positive statement about those that have His commandments and keep them that it is they that love Him and SHOW their love for Him by doing so. But again, this verse has nothing to do with your first verse. You have forced it there; it is not remotely in the context of what the first verse says. This is a Faustite trick, creating a syllogism from two distant verses. Still, John 14:21 has nothing about kingdom “exclusion” and neither does James 2:5. That is something that Faustites interpolate into the passages. – Herb Evan

The miss and match scripture thing? - Jim Newcom

Yes, you and your teacher both mix and match and miss. You are triple threats -- Herb Evans

Isaiah 28:9-10
9 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts.
10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little: -- Jim Newcom

Aw c'mon with the platitudes. Stick to the discussion. I am on to the deception. -- Herb Evans

I show you that Jesus says the man that keeps his commandments is the man that loves him, and you accuse me of forcing that into the context of James 2:5? -- Jim Newcom

Yes, I do. The one is talking about the end of those who love Him. The other is talking about obedient love. -- Herb Evans

I guess the love James is talking about must be that secret love, like the kind Peter had when he denied Christ three times.

Sarcasm is no argument. Peter did love the Lord but fouled out, and he never went to hell fire. -- Herb Evans

We love Him because He first loved us, . . . Jim

Yes, indeed! -- Herb Evans

. . .but . . . -- Jim

There is that Billy Goat Faustism. But, But, But . . . -- Herb Evans

. . . if we don't keep His commandments, we don't love Him. We may pay lip service to Him, but thats not bible love, brother.

You are a liar! I love Him and I do not always keep His commandments and you don't either. The weakness of the flesh cause many Christians to foul out. -- Herb Evans

1 John 5:2-3
2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

2 John 1:6
6 And this is love, that we walk after his commandments. This is the commandment, That, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it.

Praise God that He didn't show the same secret love for us.

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I find it funny when you warn me that I am wresting scriptures to my destruction. How much wresting would a Christian have to do to be destroyed in your system? -- Jim Newman

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That depends on what you call destruction, which I am about to read. The only way a Christian is destroyed is by physical death or by the destruction of his life as a Christian. -- Herb Evans

That wouldn't be destruction at the judgment seat, because it would be my old man that wrested the scriptures any way. -- Jim Newman

That is Faustite jargon not Bible. Folks do not get destroyed, killed, or get stripes at the JSOC. -- Herb Evans

2 Timothy 4:1
1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;

Do you just fling scriptures now without any rationale’? What has this to do with our issue? I believe the JSOC occurs at His appearing. – Herb Evans

1 Corinthians 11:31-32
31 For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged.
32 But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.

You are repeating yourself here. Again, this judgment is here on earth. They were sick and dying in 11:30. You are again mixing and matching passages that have nothing to do with one another and have no remote context connection. – Herb Evans



The context is judgment, Herb. -- Jim Newcom

So, you are going to ignore judgment of the church on earth that they get sick and die in 11:30 to force your ideas into 11:32. The context is judgment but it is here and not up there. You got caught in another Faust manipulation. -- Herb Evans

Indeed people get sick and die right here on this earth for sins. I don't see how that means there is no judgment at the judgment seat of Christ. At least you don't greek out and call it a 'bema' as if that were some argument against judgment. But you have been drawing your doctrine from the same well. Only good rewards at the judgment seat of Christ, nothing bad can touch me after death.

 

[James_Newman]

Originally Posted by Herb Evans


A man who has put off the old man and put on the new man will not be fulfilling the lusts of the flesh. -- Jim newman

That is true, if you understood it properly. How long does the new man last? Can the old man come back (I believe he never leaves until death.)? Is it like alternating current, Old man, new man, old man, and etc. ad nauseam? -- Herb Evans

Herb, I think there comes a time when a saint will stop playing games with the Lord. Prove to me that a man cannot overcome sin in this life. --Jim Newman

You are the one that is playing games by wresting the scriptures to your own destruction. Prove to me that there are no people on Mars. The overcomers' cult does not realize that you overcome by the blood of the Lamb. -- Herb Evans

Now you are just being silly, Herb. Of course we realize that it is by the blood of the lamb. We just go ahead and believe the bible when it tells us that blood will give us victory in this life. -- Jim Newman

That is not an argument; it is merely a statement of disagreement. We overcome everything by the blood of the Lamb, sin, this world, the devil, and that overcoming gains us eternal life and the kingdom, despite this watering down of yours. -- Herb Evans


The difference is my view of overcoming is literal, while you teach some type of mystical 'overcoming' that does not involve any actual victory over sin. I will overcome by availing myself of the grace of God. You overcome by boasting. Your overcoming is reminiscent of the Catholic transubstantiation. It looks like sin is reigning in our members, but trust me, we have overcome sin. -- Jim Newman

Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

The blood of Jesus Christ is the grace of God. Our boast and trust is in Jesus Christ and the God that KEEPS us and not we ourselves. We believe in Christ righteousness and do not go about to establish our own righteousness, since God works in us and through us. – Herb Evans

1Jo 2:13 I write unto you, young men, because ye have overcome the wicked one. I write unto you, little children, because ye have known the Father. I have written unto you, young men, because ye are strong, and the word of God abideth in you, and ye have overcome the wicked one. – 1 John 2:13,14


Unlike Faustites, Bible believers are said to have already overcome the wicked one positionally. They do not have to walk a tight rope and wait to see if they have enough to get in or enough to be kept out, reminicant of Catholic doctrine. – Herb Evans

1Jo 4:4 Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them [spirits of antichrist]: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

Besides the blood of the Lamb, believers overcome by the one that is in them that is greater than the world, the Holy Spirit.

Obviously Mr. Faustite does not believe these passages to be literal. I guess he thinks that they are symbolic. -- Herb Evans

What good is believing that you have overcome sin, if sin is reigning in your members? -- Jim Newman

Believing overcomes sin for salvation, why not for the kingdom? If you have sinned and sinned willfully as you have admitted, sin has reigned in your members. Oh yes, there are many passages that teach us to avoid sin and to abstain from sin and to mortify our members, but instructions and commands are not automatic conditions for gaining the kingdom or salvation. Faustites cannot grasp that. – Herb Evans



Believing overcomes sin positionally, why not practically? Rev 12:11 says they loved not their lives unto death. That sounds practical to me.

Now, what in the world does rev. 12:11 in the tribulation have to do with what we are talking about? Believing doe not take care of the practical sin problem that is why we must confess our sins, and if we say that we have no sin the truth is not in us. Believing never took care of the sin and sinning wilfully that you admitted to. -- Herb Evans


Quote:

Quote:

James 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: show me thy faith without thy works, and I will show thee my faith by my works. – Jim Newman


A workless faith is a worthless faith and is no faith at all. A workless faith is a dead faith; real believers have a living faith that works. Jame’s ’s appeal here is to those that they merely say that they have faith and do not. False professors abounded then and now. Nothing here about the kingdom exclusion or hel fire for the true believer, just another Faustite manipulated passage to promote their views. – Herb Evans
So now we are going to run to the other side. If you aren't working, you aren't really a believer.

Never said that! That is your characterization of what I said. You aren't really a believer if you have a dead faith. A workless faith. -- Herb Evans

Whatever, Herb, you're going to say it again two paragraphs down.

Never mind that you argued that a believer can sin like the devil and still inherit the kingdom.

Yes, never mind that, for it is true for salvation and the kingdom, but for some reason, you think that the kingdom is more serious than eternal salvation in your 2 plan of salvation thingie! -- Herb Evans

You just have to have good works first, to prove you are a believer.

Well, if you accept folks' claim of salvation without any works, all the power to you. be my guest.

Of course you don't accept folks' claim of salvation without any works, because you believe that you have to have works to be saved. It may be the most meager of works, but if I say I have faith but don't prove it through my actions, my faith is dead and is not really faith. So believing on the finished work of Christ is not sufficient, I have to add works to my faith to make it 'saving faith'. I'm on to your game, Herb. You say you believe in salvation by faith alone, but you don't really.

I don't accept your claim to salvation or the kingdom due to your wicked false doctrine and heresy. To me that is worse than any bad works that you have done. -- Herb Evans

So we work for our eternal salvation, and the kingdom is thrown in for free like the prize in a happy meal.

Where in the world are you getting that. I don't work for either eternal salvation or kingdom salvation in your second plan. Are you that blind that you can't grasp that? -- Herb Evans

Thats pretty funny, Herb. How many works do I have to have to prove I am saved? The truth is a workless faith is still faith, even if it is 'dead, being alone'. Do we get saved by 'faith alone' or do we get saved by faith plus works?

What is funny is your failure to both comprehend the scriptures and me, if it were not so tragic. No dead faith and workless faith is not faith at all, the point that James is trying get through to some folks that are merely claiming it. -- Herb Evans

So how many works do I have to have to prove I am saved? Better yet, show me your works so I can know that I am debating a brother in Christ, and not a wolf in sheeps clothing. All I know about Herb Evans is that he claims to be saved by the blood of Jesus, but he could be a false professor if he doesn't have works to prove he is really saved.

 

[James_Newman]

I don't accept your claim to salvation or the kingdom due to your wicked false doctrine and heresy. To me that is worse than any bad works that you have done. -- Herb Evans

I wondered if you could shed some light as to why what I teach is the most wicked thing on the planet. I mean, considering you don't know what I have done, I hope you assumed the worst. So teaching that Christians will be held accountable for sin is worse than murdering unborn babies, worse than having my father's concubines, etc... The bible says that you would know a teacher by his fruit. What is the bad fruit that is produced by this doctrine? I know that in my life it has produced godly fear, delivered me from drugs and alcohol and it has saved my marriage.