True to the point, that it was all Luther that was the originator of the reformation, that it is a myth
Certainly, Luther was important, but the Papist were highly aggressive, against any who dared raise concerns, for centuries prior to Luther.
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Ten doctrines which render Rome outside of Christ
- Thread starter Squire Robertsson
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Certainly, Luther was important, but the Papist were highly aggressive, against any who dared raise concerns, for centuries prior to Luther.
This is merely what you have been taught as the truth, but it isn’t.
Greek Orthodox has just as much right of claim.
However, the early church did not look to Rome for any authority.
Water under the bridge brother
Do you trust your feelings?
Are they which you depend for truth, or do you search the Scriptures as the Lord Jesus told the folks during the earthly ministry?
What then is the actual belief and trust placed? The church, or the Christ?
Paul wrote to the Roman church. Have you actually read what he wrote to them concerning faith and practice?
Paul said ALL the true believers in Rome were saints, does your church teach that as the truth? Romans 1:
"6among whom you also are the called of Jesus Christ;
7to all who are beloved of God in Rome, called as saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ."
Your church says to trust it for the truth, yet Paul said to the Roman church,7to all who are beloved of God in Rome, called as saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ."
" 1Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2through whom also we have obtained our introduction by faith into this grace in which we stand; and we exult in hope of the glory of God."
Your church teaches that it can bind and loose, yet Paul told the Roman church,
"10For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life. 11And not only this, but we also exult in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation."
Your church teaches you must confess to a priest, yet Paul told the Roman church,
"9that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation."
Your church teaches you must pay for your sins by doing some manner of penitence, yet Paul told the Roman church,
"33Who will bring a charge against God’s elect? God is the one who justifies; 34who is the one who condemns? Christ Jesus is He who died, yes, rather who was raised, who is at the right hand of God, who also intercedes for us. 35Who will separate us from the love of Christ? Will tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
36Just as it is written,
“FOR YOUR SAKE WE ARE BEING PUT TO DEATH ALL DAY LONG;
WE WERE CONSIDERED AS SHEEP TO BE SLAUGHTERED.”
37But in all these things we overwhelmingly conquer through Him who loved us. 38For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, 39nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord."
36Just as it is written,
“FOR YOUR SAKE WE ARE BEING PUT TO DEATH ALL DAY LONG;
WE WERE CONSIDERED AS SHEEP TO BE SLAUGHTERED.”
37But in all these things we overwhelmingly conquer through Him who loved us. 38For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, 39nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord."
So the basic question is who do you actually trust.
The "Church" which denies basic Scripture truth as shown above, or the apostle Paul who wrote to the church assembled at Rome?
It isn't a hard question, one but one that holds eternity in the balance.
Either the Scriptures are true, or your Church is true. One or the other.
Hint: If you have not read through Romans, do so, for in that book you will find the lies exposed that you currently trust.
Should you doubt that I stated Paul correctly, do your own reading of the letter.
That is what the "Church" didn't want people to do, because it would expose the lies they have taught to keep the people under their control.
But, I would say, you will not read. You will not desire to know the truth. You will have nothing to offer the Lord Jesus but the lies handed you by superstition and Papists who desire not for your betterment, but for their own.
Another misinterpretation of the Scriptures from you folks. We merely follow and imitate what we read in the Scriptures about this.
In Romans 4:16-17 it is written: 16Therefore, the promise comes by faith, so that it may be by grace and may be guaranteed to all Abraham's offspring-not only to those who are of the law but also to those who have the faith of Abraham. He is the father of us all. 17As it is written: "I have made you a father of many nations." He is our father in the sight of God (Abraham), in whom he believed-the God who gives life to the dead and calls into being things that were not.
In Corinthians it also says: (1 Cor. 4:14-15) "I do not write this to make you ashamed, but to admonish you as my beloved children. 15 For though you have countless guides in Christ, you do not have many fathers. For I became your father in Christ Jesus through the gospel."
So you see, St. Paul uses the word also and he shows no confusion in determining the difference between the "Father" in heaven and those here on earth. Jesus simply meant that we are not to look on any man as God, as our Father in heaven. St. Paul didn't and we don't either.
That's right, our Orthodox brothers are on the correct page as they also have a valid Apostolic Succession right from the beginning. They continue to believe and preach what was taught from day 1, that there is indeed seven Sacraments and Jesus Christ is truly present in the Holy Eucharist.
I will wait for a reply to the post I made after this that you responded too.
For ultimately, what you respond to the Scriptures presented in contrast to the lies of the Papist will determine a great amount toward the discussion.
You just giving us a badge of honor "ad infinitum, ad nauseam"
Prophecy of God Almighty:
Malachi 1
11“For from the rising of the sun even to its setting, My name will be great among the nations, and in every place incense is going to be offered to My name, and a grain offering that is pure; for My name will be great among the nations,” says the LORD of hosts.
There is only ONE SACRIFICE, ONE OFFERING that is pure and perfect for God, Jesus Christ's death on the cross.
Around the whole world, a pure grain offering, never mind it being grain it doesn't have to be, what is important is it has to be perfect and pure, offered with incense ALL DAY LONG.
Not once a month with potato chips and kool-aid. Folks not going to fulfill that prophecy. What do you know about burning incense? Folks can't even handle 5 minutes.
We are already doing it Today. ALL DAY LONG, everyday.
What can I say? Your welcome.
[Personal attack edited] [Personal attack edited]
People add and go BEYOND WHAT IS WRITTEN, FAKE RULES and LAWS that don't exist.
People who swear something is RULE and then can't find scripture to back up their [Personal attack edited].
People who can read verse straight forward and [Personal attack edited] the meaning is BACKWARDS.
Show us the bible verse where scripture that says scripture is the final and only rule of authority christian.
[Personal attacked edited.]
Don't need to teach me scripture is true, scripture is perfect, scripture is never wrong, scripture is PROFITABLE and USEFUL. I love scripture.
I am a actual bible believer.
[Personal attack edited]
Show us the bible verse where scripture that says scripture is the final and only rule of authority christian.
Don't read into the text, Don't go beyond what is written. I want that bible verse right now, SIR!
[Personal attacked edited]
I know scripture is IMPORTANT, THE TRUTH, GOD BREATHED. I love scriptures, they are perfect as is, I'm not asking that.
I want to see this RULE you SWEAR against GOD exists.
Show us the bible verse where scripture that says scripture is the final and only rule of authority christian.
[Personal attack edited]
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prophecy70
Active Member
1 corinthians 11
17In the following directives I have no praise for you, for your meetings do more harm than good. 18In the first place, I hear that when you come together as a church, there are divisions among you, and to some extent I believe it. 19No doubt there have to be differences among you to show which of you have God’s approval. 20So then, when you come together, it is not the Lord’s Supper you eat, 21for when you are eating, some of you go ahead with your own private suppers. As a result, one person remains hungry and another gets drunk. 22Don’t you have homes to eat and drink in? Or do you despise the church of God by humiliating those who have nothing? What shall I say to you? Shall I praise you? Certainly not in this matter!
23For I received from the Lord what I also passed on to you: The Lord Jesus, on the night he was betrayed, took bread, 24and when he had given thanks, he broke it and said, “This is my body, which is for you; do this in remembrance of me.” 25In the same way, after supper he took the cup, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood; do this, whenever you drink it, in remembrance of me.” 26For whenever you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death until he comes.
How can the people abuse the wine and get drunk if the wine turns to actual blood?
17In the following directives I have no praise for you, for your meetings do more harm than good. 18In the first place, I hear that when you come together as a church, there are divisions among you, and to some extent I believe it. 19No doubt there have to be differences among you to show which of you have God’s approval. 20So then, when you come together, it is not the Lord’s Supper you eat, 21for when you are eating, some of you go ahead with your own private suppers. As a result, one person remains hungry and another gets drunk. 22Don’t you have homes to eat and drink in? Or do you despise the church of God by humiliating those who have nothing? What shall I say to you? Shall I praise you? Certainly not in this matter!
23For I received from the Lord what I also passed on to you: The Lord Jesus, on the night he was betrayed, took bread, 24and when he had given thanks, he broke it and said, “This is my body, which is for you; do this in remembrance of me.” 25In the same way, after supper he took the cup, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood; do this, whenever you drink it, in remembrance of me.” 26For whenever you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death until he comes.
How can the people abuse the wine and get drunk if the wine turns to actual blood?
Once again, I have no idea what you're talking about.
Ok,
Not one but two pages for you to survey.
http://www.eternal-productions.org/PDFS/God's Word our final, infallible authority.pdf
I won’t hold my breath for you repentance over the outrageous post.
I’ll just leave it to the assumption you are too long with that which rises up in the cup and causes foolishness to manifest.
I trust my feelings, my intellect, and my faith.
I have faith that the Church which Jesus set in motion teaches the truth, and when I read the Scriptures I keep what they say in mind. I do not twist them to come to my own conclusions which could lead me to my own destruction. I give great credence to those in authority whom God has placed there.
In the Christ who guides us through His Church.
Of course.
The Scriptures say to trust the Church for truth, to listen to those who God has placed there. We are to take our problems to the Church, where those in authority will help us.
Having known many of the other Apostles, St. Paul knew firsthand of the "binding and loosing" powers the Church had. When he wrote his letters he wrote them as a part of the Church leadership, and the things he said in them were law, and you can be sure he expected those to whom he wrote to believe what he said and obey him.
Again, St. Paul knew firsthand from those who received such, that Jesus did indeed breathe unto them that they receive the Holy Spirit and He gave them the power to forgive or not to forgive sins. This power was also passed on to their successors through to this very day. Once again, the Church teaches the Scriptures correctly.
My Church says we receive forgiveness in the name of Jesus Christ alone. However, with the authority it possesses (binding and loosing), the Church teaches that as part of the process we should do some penitent act. Why you might ask? Because it helps the penitent to overcome selfishness, to desire more strongly to live a holy life, to be closer to Jesus, and to show to others the love and compassion of Jesus. It may consist of prayer, works of mercy, service of neighbor, voluntary self-denial, sacrifices, "and above all the patient acceptance of the cross we all must bear. Such penances help configure us to Christ, who alone expiated our sins once for all.
The Church exists for one purpose, to guide us in our spiritual life as we go through our journey here on earth. Created by Jesus Christ, it exists for His glory and His glory alone, not some selfish reason which you so wrongly claim.
"For those who eat and drink without discerning the body of Christ eat and drink judgment on themselves". (1 Cor 11-29)
Discerning what? THE BODY OF CHRIST!
If you are a Christian as you claim to be then why the personal attacks?
Brother, people observe your actions, the words you type, your comportment and make up their minds based on that.
Just so you know, I was raised a RC and for over 34 years lived my life practicing that faith, so I can become very passionate about it. I don’t like it when they refer to Catholics as papists... I find that demeaning, a tool used to reference a time when the RCC was in much need of reform. Also I have family who are RC, so attack’s on their faith is not something looked upon favorably. But you must always check yourself and remember that you are in a Baptist forum... right!!!
You would serve Christ best by loving your opponent, show them you can be gracious and you practice the golden rule. OK, I am done here.
Very well said. Your respect for others, (especially us) has been noted and I like what I read from you. I have family members who are Protestant and we get along just fine. In fact, we have worshipped together in each other's churches at times, concentrating on what we have in common (Jesus Christ) and not dwelling on the things in which we differ.
Your response shows you place more authority upon the church then the Word of God.
Yet, you admit that same church is / was in need of reform.
Seems like the alignment of loyalty needs adjustment.
No alignment of loyalty is needed.
I ask you, where does the Church come from? From God no less! It is His creation and He gave it valid authority here on earth. Did Jesus just write a book and tell us to go figure things out for ourselves? No! That is basically your claim and that is a ridiculous assertion.
The Church is His instrument, created to provide guidance to the faithful in this world of ours. The Word of God is reflected in the Church and the Mass, which is the the way we worship, is the Word of God in action. It is a living institution that reminds us daily of Christ's great sacrifice and gives us hope in the world to come. Jesus, the living Word, is in and of the Church and they cannot be separated.
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Your post is not consistent with the instructions Paul gave to Timothy.
13But evil men and impostors will proceed from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived. 14You, however, continue in the things you have learned and become convinced of, knowing from whom you have learned them,15and that from childhood you have known the sacred writings which are able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.16All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; 17so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work.
And again
9How can a young man keep his way pure?
By keeping it according to Your word.
10With all my heart I have sought You;
Do not let me wander from Your commandments.
11Your word I have treasured in my heart,
That I may not sin against You.
12Blessed are You, O LORD;
Teach me Your statutes.
13With my lips I have told of
All the ordinances of Your mouth.
14I have rejoiced in the way of Your testimonies,
As much as in all riches.
15I will meditate on Your precepts
And regard Your ways.
16I shall delight in Your statutes;
I shall not forget Your word.
It is God’s Word that is the final authority, not what some sin filled Papist says by way of endorsing what is put before God.By keeping it according to Your word.
10With all my heart I have sought You;
Do not let me wander from Your commandments.
11Your word I have treasured in my heart,
That I may not sin against You.
12Blessed are You, O LORD;
Teach me Your statutes.
13With my lips I have told of
All the ordinances of Your mouth.
14I have rejoiced in the way of Your testimonies,
As much as in all riches.
15I will meditate on Your precepts
And regard Your ways.
16I shall delight in Your statutes;
I shall not forget Your word.
Which was more important to the OT people - The Tabernacle/Temple in which the very presence of God dwell along with the assortment of priests or the Scriptures?
Would the “church” set up some sinfilled person(s) as more authoritative than the very Scriptures?
What authority of God is found if the church is the authority yet has become that of Laodicea?
Because you say, “I am rich, and have become wealthy, and have need of nothing,” and you do not know that you are wretched and miserable and poor and blind and naked, 18I advise you to buy from Me gold refined by fire so that you may become rich, and white garments so that you may clothe yourself, and that the shame of your nakedness will not be revealed; and eye salve to anoint your eyes so that you may see. 19‘Those whom I love, I reprove and discipline; therefore be zealous and repent.
Does not God spit them out of His mouth?
How is the Papist any less than that of Laodicea?
The sandbox you chose to throw gasoline on.
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