Texas Exit.

[JonC]

What do you mean here? The DID have to be readmitted. Each one has a date of readmission.

They were readmitted to Congress. What I mean is not the States as a government but the land and its people. So in that context, yes. Each state had to be readmitted. But the people of the states were never not US citizens and the land was never not US land.

 

[Quantrill]

The SCOTUS determined the US Constitution was designed in such a way they could not. This is one reason they did not have to be readmitted to the US as states.....they never left (they deluded themselves into believing they had).

Why don't you answer my questions? Why do you ignore what the 39th Congress declared in Dec. 1865? Why were the Southern States forced to accept the 13th and 14th amendment to be brought back into the Union?

Your answer of the Reconstruction Supreme court decision of 1869 with Texas and White is just more of the myth making of that War. Salmon Chase was the head of that Court. Chase was part of the Radical Reconstructionists . Chase was influential in having Jeff Davis not tried for treason.

Why would Chase do that since he hated the South? Because a trial of Jeff Davis would prove before the world the legitimacy of secession which Chase could not bear. Chase would rather see Jeff Davis, the most evil man the American myth makers created, go free rather than have secession justified. So at any opportunity to declare secession as illegal or never happening, he would.

The Reconstruction courts are all part of the myth makers of that War. The decision of 1869 did not change the history that went before it. It did not change Congress determination that the South was out of the Union.

Secession in 1861 was legal. The only perpetual union existed under the Articles of Confederation. And as I said, the Framers tossed that out the window. And the 'perpetual union' went with it.

Quantrill

 

[Quantrill]

They were readmitted to Congress. What I mean is not the States as a government but the land and its people. So in that context, yes. Each state had to be readmitted. But the people of the states were never not US citizens and the land was never not US land.

What double talk.

Quantrill

 

[Salty]

What double talk.

Quantrill

It appears you need to agree to disagree!

Lets move on

 

[JonC]

Why don't you answer my questions? Why do you ignore what the 39th Congress declared in Dec. 1865? Why were the Southern States forced to accept the 13th and 14th amendment to be brought back into the Union?

Your answer of the Reconstruction Supreme court decision of 1869 with Texas and White is just more of the myth making of that War. Salmon Chase was the head of that Court. Chase was part of the Radical Reconstructionists . Chase was influential in having Jeff Davis not tried for treason.

Why would Chase do that since he hated the South? Because a trial of Jeff Davis would prove before the world the legitimacy of secession which Chase could not bear. Chase would rather see Jeff Davis, the most evil man the American myth makers created, go free rather than have secession justified. So at any opportunity to declare secession as illegal or never happening, he would.

The Reconstruction courts are all part of the myth makers of that War. The decision of 1869 did not change the history that went before it. It did not change Congress determination that the South was out of the Union.

Secession in 1861 was legal. The only perpetual union existed under the Articles of Confederation. And as I said, the Framers tossed that out the window. And the 'perpetual union' went with it.

Quantrill

Others have already answered your question. The land and people did not have to be brought back into the Union. The state governments did. But the context was restoring representation (this was an issue of reconstruction).

No State (territory/ people) seceded. The state governments did (and they lost representation). They had to be readmitted (each was at different times readmitted to Congress).

 

[JonC]

What double talk.

Quantrill

Except this is exactly the point the SCOTUS and Congress made. It sounds like "double talk" to you because you just skim over issues to pick out what may suit your preconceived fantasies.

You did this when you erroneously claimed the President cannot call up the National Guard without the consent of the Governor.

And you are doing it now. Reconstruction was about representation - not about readmitting a people or land to the Union but about readmitting the governments that represent those people into Congress.

The argument/ problem was the separation of the State governments from the Union and the necessity of representation in a republic.

You are entitled to your own opinions but not your own facts. I do not know why you prefer fiction over truth, but the real history in this case is more interesting than the fiction you create.

 

[Quantrill]

Others have already answered your question. The land and people did not have to be brought back into the Union. The state governments did. But the context was restoring representation (this was an issue of reconstruction).

No State (territory/ people) seceded. The state governments did (and they lost representation). They had to be readmitted (each was at different times readmitted to Congress).

No they haven't. And neither have you answered.

You cannot make the division between people, land, and government. A people are nothing of political value without a land and government. A land is itself nothing but a place without people and government residing. A government does not exist without a people and a land. Sunday school teaches us that. (Gen. 12:1-3)

When the South seceded, the people, the land, and another government went with them. They were out of the union which was held by 'political' bonds only. Should have learned that from the Declaration of Independence. "When in the course of human events it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bonds which have connected them...."

The South dissolved those political bonds. The union existed now only in the Yankee states. Congress knew it. The North knew it. And, Salmon Chase knew it. He knew it so well that he helped get Jeff Davis free so as not to have the world see that secession was not treason, as they had been claiming.

Thy myth must stay alive. Most still believe it.

Quantrill

 

[Scott Downey]

It appears you need to agree to disagree!

Lets move on

That takes either party to just quit the discussion, then it is no longer a debate going on.
Getting in the last word is useless, dont ever try to do that in any debate or disagreement.

 

[Quantrill]

Except this is exactly the point the SCOTUS and Congress made. It sounds like "double talk" to you because you just skim over issues to pick out what may suit your preconceived fantasies.

You did this when you erroneously claimed the President cannot call up the National Guard without the consent of the Governor.

And you are doing it now. Reconstruction was about representation - not about readmitting a people or land to the Union but about readmitting the governments that represent those people into Congress.

The argument/ problem was the separation of the State governments from the Union and the necessity of representation in a republic.

You are entitled to your own opinions but not your own facts. I do not know why you prefer fiction over truth, but the real history in this case is more interesting than the fiction you create.

Sounds like double talk because it is double talk.

Representation was involved of course. A state not represented is out of the Union. But Reconstruction was far more than that. It was also about reconstructing the whole of Southern society to be controlled by the blacks so as to give the Republican party a voting block in the South. It was also about using blacks to control the whites. "The New England Freedmen's Aid Society, in like vein, saw in the black man the force to which the country must look in a large degree as a counteracting influence against the evil counsels and designs of white freemen." (Reconstruction, Robert Selph Henry, Konecky &Konecky, p. 31) Whew...what an application today can be made with that statement.

Plus, Reconstruction was about vengeance of the North upon the South. Lincoln's position of bring the South back in based only on a pardon and oath was hated by the Radical North. And Salmon Chase was one of those Radical North. They saw the states as conquered territories only and should be treated as such. When Lincoln was shot, the Radical North got its way and wreaked its vengeance. Sort of makes one wonder just who shot Lincoln any way?

There was much more involved with Reconstruction than 'representation'. You are just breathing the smoke they continually pipe to you.

Quantrill

 

[JonC]

That takes either party to just quit the discussion, then it is no longer a debate going on.
Getting in the last word is useless, dont ever try to do that in any debate or disagreement.

It isn't really debate. Just an argument.

We have decisions, the writings of the SCOTUS for their decisions, and Congressional arguments. @Quantrill says they do not make sense (that a state government can withdraw from Congress without the people withdrawing from the Union).

It may not make sense to him, and that is a fair statement. But it made sense to those to whom it was necessary (those who determine these issues).

What @Quantrill and I think should be does not affect what is. We do not decide. The decision was already made, we have the facts, and history cannot be rewritten to suit our preferences

It does not really matter anyway. Only an idiot would believe a State would secede even if it could. Now, there could be a take over....but a secession would never work (it would destroy the State that left if they could).

So it is just talk. No debate.

 

[AustinC]

But Reconstruction was far more than that. It was also about reconstructing the whole of Southern society to be controlled by the blacks so as to give the Republican party a voting block in the South. It was also about using blacks to control the whites.

Quantrill

...and here we see the open racism of Quantrill. Denying the inherent value of persons whose skin pigment is not white. Denying that all person's are created by God. That all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. Denying that Jesus breaks down and cast away all barriers, making all redeemed person's equal in Christ with no respect for the skin pigmentation God gave them.
How disappointed Q will be when he sees person's from every nation tribe and tongue worshipping as one body before the throne of our King.
Q, you remind me of the Pharisees and Sadducees who rejected Jesus full inclusion of women and Gentiles into His Kingdom. May God break you of your racist thinking and reveal to you His reconciliation of people from all nations, tribes and tongues as one, equal, group.
My prayers are for your healing from racism.

 

[Scott Downey]

...and here we see the open racism of Quantrill. Denying the inherent value of persons whose skin pigment is not white. Denying that all person's are created by God. That all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. Denying that Jesus breaks down and cast away all barriers, making all redeemed person's equal in Christ with no respect for the skin pigmentation God gave them.
How disappointed Q will be when he sees person's from every nation tribe and tongue worshipping as one body before the throne of our King.
Q, you remind me of the Pharisees and Sadducees who rejected Jesus full inclusion of women and Gentiles into His Kingdom. May God break you of your racist thinking and reveal to you His reconciliation of people from all nations, tribes and tongues as one, equal, group.
My prayers are for your healing from racism.

I often wondered when God divided the races, and I think He did that after the flood when He divided the people into nations and forced them all to speak a different language. Not that they were suddenly colored or looked different, but their children were different.

Acts 17, God made all mankind from Adam alone, (includes Eve) so from one blood, many nations. And God determined the extent of their boundaries and PREAPPOINTED times.
God is definitely not letting things happen randomly, He predetermines the fate of nations and peoples, races and situational circumstances and is in charge of everything that occurs.

25 Nor is He worshiped with men’s hands, as though He needed anything, since He gives to all life, breath, and all things.
26 And He has made from one blood every nation of men to dwell on all the face of the earth, and has determined their preappointed times and the boundaries of their dwellings,

 

[Salty]

...and here we see the open racism of Quantrill. Denying the inherent value of persons whose skin pigment is not white. Denying that all person's are created by God. That all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. Denying that Jesus breaks down and cast away all barriers, making all redeemed person's equal in Christ with no respect for the skin pigmentation God gave them.
How disappointed Q will be when he sees person's from every nation tribe and tongue worshipping as one body before the throne of our King.
Q, you remind me of the Pharisees and Sadducees who rejected Jesus full inclusion of women and Gentiles into His Kingdom. May God break you of your racist thinking and reveal to you His reconciliation of people from all nations, tribes and tongues as one, equal, group.
My prayers are for your healing from racism.

1) I dont see where Q is being racist - he simply passed on info. It would be like if I stated that 80% of all NBA players are black. That is not a racist statement - simply passing on factual info. In addition - IMHO - part of reconstruction was punishment of the South. Germany and Japan were treated much better after WWII than the South. In addition, there is a theory that some Republicans were part of the plot to kill Lincoln because they believed that Lincoln would be too soft on the South.
And once again - all "men" are NOT created equal.

 

[AustinC]

I often wondered when God divided the races, and I think He did that after the flood when He divided the people into nations and forced them all to speak a different language. Not that they were suddenly colored or looked different, but their children were different.

Acts 17, God made all mankind from Adam alone, (includes Eve) so from one blood, many nations. And God determined the extent of their boundaries and PREAPPOINTED times.
God is definitely not letting things happen randomly, He predetermines the fate of nations and peoples, races and situational circumstances and is in charge of everything that occurs.

25 Nor is He worshiped with men’s hands, as though He needed anything, since He gives to all life, breath, and all things.
26 And He has made from one blood every nation of men to dwell on all the face of the earth, and has determined their preappointed times and the boundaries of their dwellings,

Much how God manipulated the genetic code with Jacob's sheep when Jacob worked for Laban, God manipulated skin color for various regions of the world as people moved to various places. It's a grace from God, not a curse so that humans could survive various conditions on earth.
Christians should be ashamed of harboring any forms of racism in their being.

 

[AustinC]

1) I dont see where Q is being racist - he simply passed on info. It would be like if I stated that 80% of all NBA players are black. That is not a racist statement - simply passing on factual info. In addition - IMHO - part of reconstruction was punishment of the South. Germany and Japan were treated much better after WWII than the South. In addition, there is a theory that some Republicans were part of the plot to kill Lincoln because they believed that Lincoln would be too soft on the South.
And once again - all "men" are NOT created equal.

Sounds like you're living in a conspiracy theory.
The civil war was a judgment from God because the United States refused to outlaw slavery from the beginning. God killed hundreds of thousands of people in that war in an attempt to get wicked, rebellious, sinners to repent. God ordained the fall of the South because they did not condemn slavery and bigotry.
Sadly such bigotry also resided in the North and still finds harbor in souls today. Such bigotry is a sure sign that Christians still need sanctifying everyday.

Falling upon States Rights is a means of scapegoating the wickedness of racism.

 

[Scott Downey]

Sounds like you're living in a conspiracy theory.
The civil war was a judgment from God because the United States refused to outlaw slavery from the beginning. God killed hundreds of thousands of people in that war in an attempt to get wicked, rebellious, sinners to repent. God ordained the fall of the South because they did not condemn slavery and bigotry.
Sadly such bigotry also resided in the North and still finds harbor in souls today. Such bigotry is a sure sign that Christians still need sanctifying everyday.

Falling upon States Rights is a means of scapegoating the wickedness of racism.

Christians, if they experience persecution or racism should heed the scriptures.
The concept is in the world your going to have fiery trials, but they are proving your faith genuine and giving you a sure reward, if you do not give up the faith.
Such as Jesus saying
40 If anyone wants to sue you and take away your tunic, let him have your cloak also.
41 And whoever compels you to go one mile, go with him two.
42 Give to him who asks you, and from him who wants to borrow from you do not turn away.

And Paul saying, dont go to court to fix your grievances in society, courts here are of this world, and the same thing regarding politics. Paul says you should rather let yourself be defrauded. As soon as you fall into the trap of the world by doing that, you have utterly failed the faith.

1 Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to law before the unrighteous, and not before the saints? 2 Do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if the world will be judged by you, are you unworthy to judge the smallest matters?
.......

5 I say this to your shame. Is it so, that there is not a wise man among you, not even one, who will be able to judge between his brethren? 6 But brother goes to law against brother, and that before unbelievers!

7 Now therefore, it is already an utter failure for you that you go to law against one another. Why do you not rather accept wrong? Why do you not rather let yourselves be cheated? 8 No, you yourselves do wrong and cheat, and you do these things to your brethren! 9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.

And Peter about the wonderful salvation God has given you and then of your suffering in this world

6 In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while, if need be, you have been grieved by various trials, 7 that the genuineness of your faith, being much more precious than gold that perishes, though it is tested by fire, may be found to praise, honor, and glory at the revelation of Jesus Christ, 8 whom having not seen you love. Though now you do not see Him, yet believing, you rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory, 9 receiving the end of your faith—the salvation of your souls.

And then the joyfulness even when your goods are plundered.
Hebrews 10:34
for you had compassion on me in my chains, and joyfully accepted the plundering of your goods, knowing that you have a better and an enduring possession for yourselves in heaven.

And you have need of enduring patience, people who do not believe don't get saved, even if you believed once, you must continue in faith till the end, v14. The example is Israelites who could not enter into God's promises because of unbelief.

12 Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; 13 but exhort one another daily, while it is called “Today,” lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end, 15 while it is said:

“Today, if you will hear His voice,
Do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion.”

Failure of the Wilderness Wanderers
16 For who, having heard, rebelled? Indeed, was it not all who came out of Egypt, led by Moses? 17 Now with whom was He angry forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose corpses fell in the wilderness? 18 And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who did not obey? 19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.

 

[Salty]

Sounds like you're living in a conspiracy theory.
The civil war was a judgment from God because the United States refused to outlaw slavery from the beginning. God killed hundreds of thousands of people in that war in an attempt to get wicked, rebellious, sinners to repent. God ordained the fall of the South because they did not condemn slavery and bigotry.
Sadly such bigotry also resided in the North and still finds harbor in souls today. Such bigotry is a sure sign that Christians still need sanctifying everyday.

Falling upon States Rights is a means of scapegoating the wickedness of racism.

NOT living a conspiracy - just giving room for a possibility!
Now your belief that the USA did not outlaw slavery.... is a conspiracy theory
I could say that the North was just as guilty - because when the South demanded the 3/5 compromise - they could have formed their own country without out the South!

There are all kinds of sins that have existed in the USA from the beginning - so just don't cherry pick the ones you want to.

 

[AustinC]

Christians, if they experience persecution or racism should heed the scriptures.
The concept is in the world your going to have fiery trials, but they are proving your faith genuine and giving you a sure reward, if you do not give up the faith.
Such as Jesus saying
40 If anyone wants to sue you and take away your tunic, let him have your cloak also.
41 And whoever compels you to go one mile, go with him two.
42 Give to him who asks you, and from him who wants to borrow from you do not turn away.

And Paul saying, dont go to court to fix your grievances in society, courts here are of this world, and the same thing regarding politics. Paul says you should rather let yourself be defrauded. As soon as you fall into the trap of the world by doing that, you have utterly failed the faith.

1 Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to law before the unrighteous, and not before the saints? 2 Do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if the world will be judged by you, are you unworthy to judge the smallest matters?
.......

5 I say this to your shame. Is it so, that there is not a wise man among you, not even one, who will be able to judge between his brethren? 6 But brother goes to law against brother, and that before unbelievers!

7 Now therefore, it is already an utter failure for you that you go to law against one another. Why do you not rather accept wrong? Why do you not rather let yourselves be cheated? 8 No, you yourselves do wrong and cheat, and you do these things to your brethren! 9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.

And Peter about the wonderful salvation God has given you and then of your suffering in this world

6 In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while, if need be, you have been grieved by various trials, 7 that the genuineness of your faith, being much more precious than gold that perishes, though it is tested by fire, may be found to praise, honor, and glory at the revelation of Jesus Christ, 8 whom having not seen you love. Though now you do not see Him, yet believing, you rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory, 9 receiving the end of your faith—the salvation of your souls.

And then the joyfulness even when your goods are plundered.
Hebrews 10:34
for you had compassion on me in my chains, and joyfully accepted the plundering of your goods, knowing that you have a better and an enduring possession for yourselves in heaven.

And you have need of enduring patience, people who do not believe don't get saved, even if you believed once, you must continue in faith till the end, v14. The example is Israelites who could not enter into God's promises because of unbelief.

12 Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; 13 but exhort one another daily, while it is called “Today,” lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end, 15 while it is said:

“Today, if you will hear His voice,
Do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion.”

Failure of the Wilderness Wanderers
16 For who, having heard, rebelled? Indeed, was it not all who came out of Egypt, led by Moses? 17 Now with whom was He angry forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose corpses fell in the wilderness? 18 And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who did not obey? 19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.

What does this have to do with racism by believers.

Jesus gives us an example of racism falling when he shares the good news to the Samaritan woman and her entire town.

Paul openly confronted Peter for his racism when Peter allowed himself to be influenced by Judaizers who attempted to separate themselves from the body of Christ, somehow imagining themselves to be superior.

The fact is that racism is condemned by God.

 

[AustinC]

NOT living a conspiracy - just giving room for a possibility!
Now your belief that the USA did not outlaw slavery.... is a conspiracy theory
I could say that the North was just as guilty - because when the South demanded the 3/5 compromise - they could have formed their own country without out the South!

There are all kinds of sins that have existed in the USA from the beginning - so just don't cherry pick the ones you want to.

They could have split and formed two countries. The godless practice of slavery would have continued in the South. God ordained the Union. God also ordained the Civil War and killed hundreds of thousands of people because they would not repent. God will bring even worse disaster upon the US for it's leadership in abortion.

 

[Quantrill]

...and here we see the open racism of Quantrill. Denying the inherent value of persons whose skin pigment is not white. Denying that all person's are created by God. That all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. Denying that Jesus breaks down and cast away all barriers, making all redeemed person's equal in Christ with no respect for the skin pigmentation God gave them.
How disappointed Q will be when he sees person's from every nation tribe and tongue worshipping as one body before the throne of our King.
Q, you remind me of the Pharisees and Sadducees who rejected Jesus full inclusion of women and Gentiles into His Kingdom. May God break you of your racist thinking and reveal to you His reconciliation of people from all nations, tribes and tongues as one, equal, group.
My prayers are for your healing from racism.

About the only true statement you made is that I admit to being racist. I have never denied that. All your other statements are just plain false or miss the mark.

I recognize that there are different races and that God has made them such. God did so for the same reason He gave the different languages. It is to keep man divided. When fallen man is united, wickedness multiplies. I have said before, God divides but man is always trying to unite.

Quantrill