The 1 Day and the 1000 Years

[HankD]

But what about the fur? Is it allegorical fur?

yes complete with symbolic fleas

 

[loDebar]

john,
. your last name is Himes? is Andrew your brother?

 

[robycop3]

Now you are making me wish I'd paid more attention in English class . I believe the 1,000 years is a metaphor referring to an undetermined, but probably very long, period of time.

Thank you for the clarification regard "risk taker". You are right - God is certainly not bound by days and years any more than by geography. Having said that, I don't quite understand your last statement. How does the way one views the 1,000 years affect whether one believes God is bound by time?

The point is, God is master of time, while not Himself being bound by it. Thus, He can set periods of time and time limits for man. And I believe the 1k years is LITERAL, as it's been pointed out, it's mentioned in Scripture several times.

And, while prets insist the eschatological prophecies have already been fulfilled because "soon" & "shortly" are applied to them, we must remember that God is master of time, not vice versa, and that HE sets time periods & limits as HE chooses.

The FACT that the eschatological events have NOT yet occurred should be convincing to prets that their doctrine is incorrect, but, unfortunately, they generally choose to believe their gurus over Scripture, history, and reality.

 

[percho]

For the record I believe the 1 day and 1000 years in Peter are literal. Also the 1000 years in Rev.
I believe God cares about time witch he established, down to the nano second.
Question? Were the three days and three nights literal? How literal?
What about and the evening and the morning were the first day. The sun I do not believe was measuring time at that time, There was the light, that good and there was the darkness. Day and night. How much time? I am going to go with twelve hours of each, down to the nano second.
I wonder how close to absolute equinox, for the latitude of Jerusalem, the death and resurrection was, in the year it took place?

 

[percho]

We need to consider the CONTEXT.

3 Above all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires. 4 They will say, ‘Where is this “coming” he promised? Ever since our ancestors died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation.’​

Peter was writing around AD 60, as the LAST DAYS of the Old Covenant were coming to an end. Jesus had said in his Olivet prophecy concerning the destruction -

30 ‘Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. .......34 Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened.35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.
​

But now 30 years had passed & many of the Jewish leaders who had rejected Jesus had died & the next generation was in charge of Jerusalem. They were boasting that Jesus' prophecy of his coming for the destruction had not happened. They were saying that Jesus' prophecy is proved false. They were living proof of that.

Peter goes on to explain that the time lapse is because God is gracious -

8 But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: with the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day. 9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.
10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything done in it will be laid bare.
​

Peter is saying that Jesus will come as he prophesied in the lifetime of THIS GENERATION. There is still time to repent, but soon the time for repentance will end. The heaven on earth which Jerusalem typified will be destroyed as prophesied, with all the elements of the Old Covenant. See e.g. Exo. 25:8, Psalm 84, Gal. 4:3,9

Peter continues by looking on to Jesus' final coming for resurrection & judgment & the NH&NE, with the same instruction Jesus gives at the end of his Olivet prophecy.

13 But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, where righteousness dwells.
14 So then, dear friends, since you are looking forward to this, make every effort to be found spotless, blameless and at peace with him. 15 Bear in mind that our Lord’s patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote to you with the wisdom that God gave him.

Mat. 24:35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.
36 ‘But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. ...... 42 ‘Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come. 43 But understand this: if the owner of the house had known at what time of night the thief was coming, he would have kept watch and would not have let his house be broken into. 44 So you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him.
​

That gives the indefinite time - a day as 1,000 years. Our generation still has time for repentance, but the present "millennium" will end, with no further opportunity for repentance.

Tell me again, what year was it that Jesus came?
Do the Preterists have it boiled down to year month day?

 

[Covenanter]

Now, if the 1 day and 1000 years Peter is talking about are symbolic, the passage makes no sense, thus: "One figurative day is with the Lord as a figurative thousand years, and a figurative thousand years is as a figurative day." See? That makes no sense. It also begs the question, what figure of speech is at play here? Is it a metaphor, or a simile, or an idiom, or hyperbole, or what?

Peter is NOT using figures of speech regarding time; he is emphasising both God's gracious patience & the certainty of Christ's coming in judgment, both for the destruction & for final resurrection & judgment & to establish the NH&NE.

Okay. But you still have not answered the OP.

Had you read my answers you would have seen my (the) answer to your OP.

 

[John of Japan]

john,
. your last name is Himes? is Andrew your brother?

Yep, that would be me.

 

[John of Japan]

Had you read my answers you would have seen my (the) answer to your OP.

Fair enough.

 

[HankD]

I am still going to use the argument that the following verses

Psalm 90:4 For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night.
2 Peter 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

as a counter to the complaint of those who say "Where is the promise of his coming?"

Oh wait!

BTW after my extensive most current research adventure, I have retained and even strengthened my view of "things to come hereafter" as :

The rapture (harpazo), pretribulational, premillenial. Because this view is the best view to fulfill Jesus words

"of that day and hour knoweth no man,"

Also, no sign or historical event is required for His pretribulation coming to snatch away His Bride. e.g The rebuilding of the temple in Jerusalem, (yes it might happen before He comes for us just as the rebirth of Israel in one day in 1948 but is NOT NECESSARY as many of these things can or could have been completed IN/DURING the Tribulation).

I do however also believe the following is yet to happen in its FULLEST impact:

1 Peter 4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

I believe we should prepared brethren. If there is something coming approaching the definition of a "sign" it is Peter's warning of our judgement via the inspired word of God

 

[robycop3]

It's only vague in that we don't know how long a period of time Peter or John actually do refer to. If we did, we wouldn't be having this discussion. So, the metaphor refers to time, but we know how much time.

Maybe your point is that a metaphor is not the right term, based on the "armor of God" illustration. While I don't know what figure of speech the 1,000 years is, this is a comparative term to show us God's perspective vs man's perspective of time.

As was pointed out, "thousand years" is mentioned six times, so in the case of the "millenium", it's literal.

 

[HankD]

As was pointed out, "thousand years" is mentioned six times, so in the case of the "millennium", it's literal.

And in Revelation 20 of those 6 places the definite article (Translated as "the" thousand years) is used 3 times - that alone making a very strong case for a literal thousand years).

 

[Covenanter]

Fair enough.

And in Revelation 20 of those 6 places the definite article (Translated as "the" thousand years) is used 3 times - that alone making a very strong case for a literal thousand years).

As John has accepted that my assertion -

Peter is NOT using figures of speech regarding time; he is emphasising both God's gracious patience & the certainty of Christ's coming in judgment, both for the destruction & for final resurrection & judgment & to establish the NH&NE.

we can further discuss Peter's day/years.

I consider that the way Peter is using day/years is what we would call a "saying" or "proverb" like "a miss is as good as a mile" or "hunger is the best sauce."

The time element is that the scoffers were soon to face the truth of Jesus' destruction prophecy, while believers must live in the light of Jesus final coming for resurrection & judgment. It's worth waiting for, though you may have to wait a thousand years. We have a NH&NE to look forward to.

Because of the teaching of two comings - for the imminent destruction & the final coming - it is possible to see the day as the destruction & the thousand years as the time until the final coming, both periods being indefinite - short & long - but I don't think that is the way Peter is writing. We can work too hard to interpret a simple expression.

The message is clear - "be ready to meet Jesus - for final judgment or glory."

 

[John of Japan]

In case someone has not figured this thread out, my purpose here is to undercut "spiritualizing" this passage and Rev. 20. I see no sane, linguistic way to make any passage of Scripture figurative ("metaphorical," "allegorical, "spiritual") without specifying the particular figure of speech used in the passage.

In linguistics, figures of speech are generally limited in scope. Here is a linguistic definition of "figure of speech"--"Ancient term for any form of expression in which the normal use of language is manipulated, stretched, or altered for rhetorical effect" (Matthews, op cit, 138). Note that a figure of speech is for rhetorical effect. In other words, whole passages cannot be figurative, but only limited expressions.

For a whole passage or chapter to be metaphorical, the document itself must be an allegory, like Pilgrim's Progress. However, unfortunately for you allegorical interpreters out there, it is impossible for the book of Revelation to be an allegory. Why? It talks about Jesus all through it! If Revelation isa allegory, what or who does Jesus represent? Hmm?

I rest my case.

 

[John of Japan]

As John has accepted that my assertion -

we can further discuss Peter's day/years.

I consider that the way Peter is using day/years is what we would call a "saying" or "proverb" like "a miss is as good as a mile" or "hunger is the best sauce."

This must remain purely opinion unless you can produce other documents from the 1st century showing this statement. In the case of Paul's statement about the Cretians in Titus 1:12, the statement has been found in secular authors, so it is definitely a proverb.

The time element is that the scoffers were soon to face the truth of Jesus' destruction prophecy, while believers must live in the light of Jesus final coming for resurrection & judgment. It's worth waiting for, though you may have to wait a thousand years. We have a NH&NE to look forward to.

So far so good.

Because of the teaching of two comings - for the imminent destruction & the final coming - it is possible to see the day as the destruction & the thousand years as the time until the final coming, both periods being indefinite - short & long - but I don't think that is the way Peter is writing. We can work too hard to interpret a simple expression.

No, the day is a day and the years are years. There is no indication in the text that they are figures of speech. Before you said they were not figures of speech, but now you are saying "the day is destruction" and "the thousand years...the time until the final coming." Make up your mind.

The message is clear - "be ready to meet Jesus - for final judgment or glory."

Okay.

 

[Covenanter]

And in Revelation 20 of those 6 places the definite article (Translated as "the" thousand years) is used 3 times - that alone making a very strong case for a literal thousand years).

It is common to mention something for the first time as "a thing" & then speak of it as "the thing." I don't think the premil case is supported by that use of "the."

At the risk of the thread going off-topic I would say this -

The Old Covenant Scriptures have much to say, both of a glorious future for Israel, & dreadful judgments for persistent disobedience, the judgments being recorded in Scripture between brief periods of peace & blessing. The prophets look forward to Messiah implementing the glorious future. Jesus affirmed that prophecy referred to himself, (Luke 24.) as did Peter at Pentecost, when the New Covenant "holy nation" was born in one day. (Exo. 19:6, 1 Peter 2:9)

We are therefore living in a period in which the holy nation of Israel, comprising Jews & Gentiles is being called out of a sinful world from which it (we) suffers tribulation while awaiting the return of Jesus for final resurrection & judgment. That will happen as surely as did the prophesied destruction before the passing of the generation that persistently rejected its Messiah.

It is an observed FACT that the destruction judgment occurred within the prophesied time period, while the final coming has been awaited for nearly 2,000 years. Is that the millennium or simply an indefinite time that Jesus prophesied at the end of his Olivet prophecy in Mat. 24?

Is the binding of Satan absolute, resulting in a sinless earth? Or is it for a specific purpose - that the nations should no longer be deceived? Remember the very first promise to Abram counted in "all families on earth?" If Satan had been annihilated after the fall, man would have continued in sin without further Satanic temptation. We sin without specific temptation - do we love God with all our hearts, soul, mind & strength, & our neighbours as ourselves? No. The binding of Satan allows man to continue in rebellion against a holy God & against his redeemed people.

In the "millennium" John sees the SOULS of the faithful martyrs reigning with Christ. The are enjoying the first resurrection - but it is not a bodily resurrection - SOULS. Jesus in John 5:24-30 speaks of conversion as a resurrection, which he contrasts with the resurrection from the graves at the last day.

I believe therefore that we are living through the millennium, which, as Peter points out is not a definite period, but a time for repentance & salvation before Jesus final coming for resurrection & judgment.

 

[loDebar]

Yep, that would be me.

The former assistant editor for The Sword under Curtis Hudson. Is now our Pastor , John Reynolds
Small world

 

[robycop3]

And in Revelation 20 of those 6 places the definite article (Translated as "the" thousand years) is used 3 times - that alone making a very strong case for a literal thousand years).

Yes, Jesus will rule the earth, complete with mortals, for 1K years before Satan is released from the abyss & incites one last rebellion against Him by people. After that's dealt with, & the Great White Throne judgment is done, Jesus will step aside so His Father may be all in all, & he will remake earth's surface & send down the New Jerusalem. God has had that plan in place for a long time.

 

[robycop3]

It is common to mention something for the first time as "a thing" & then speak of it as "the thing." I don't think the premil case is supported by that use of "the."

At the risk of the thread going off-topic I would say this -

The Old Covenant Scriptures have much to say, both of a glorious future for Israel, & dreadful judgments for persistent disobedience, the judgments being recorded in Scripture between brief periods of peace & blessing. The prophets look forward to Messiah implementing the glorious future. Jesus affirmed that prophecy referred to himself, (Luke 24.) as did Peter at Pentecost, when the New Covenant "holy nation" was born in one day. (Exo. 19:6, 1 Peter 2:9)

We are therefore living in a period in which the holy nation of Israel, comprising Jews & Gentiles is being called out of a sinful world from which it (we) suffers tribulation while awaiting the return of Jesus for final resurrection & judgment. That will happen as surely as did the prophesied destruction before the passing of the generation that persistently rejected its Messiah.

It is an observed FACT that the destruction judgment occurred within the prophesied time period, while the final coming has been awaited for nearly 2,000 years. Is that the millennium or simply an indefinite time that Jesus prophesied at the end of his Olivet prophecy in Mat. 24?

Is the binding of Satan absolute, resulting in a sinless earth? Or is it for a specific purpose - that the nations should no longer be deceived? Remember the very first promise to Abram counted in "all families on earth?" If Satan had been annihilated after the fall, man would have continued in sin without further Satanic temptation. We sin without specific temptation - do we love God with all our hearts, soul, mind & strength, & our neighbours as ourselves? No. The binding of Satan allows man to continue in rebellion against a holy God & against his redeemed people.

In the "millennium" John sees the SOULS of the faithful martyrs reigning with Christ. The are enjoying the first resurrection - but it is not a bodily resurrection - SOULS. Jesus in John 5:24-30 speaks of conversion as a resurrection, which he contrasts with the resurrection from the graves at the last day.

I believe therefore that we are living through the millennium, which, as Peter points out is not a definite period, but a time for repentance & salvation before Jesus final coming for resurrection & judgment.

No, the millenium won't start til Jesus returns.

 

[OnlyaSinner]

I think the Holy Spirit meant the times cited in Psalm 90 and 2 Peter 3 to be literal times, and that both passages are illustrations - of the fact that, while God chooses to work within time, He is not bound by it. (I don't think "illustration" is a figure of speech, but could well be wrong.)
Having said that, I'm not sure how much the literalness (or otherwise) of those passages has relevance to the 1,000 years in Rev. 20. The earlier passages are descriptions through illustration, the latter prophecy. In Revelation that 1,000 is repeated numerous times and there are a number of specific events described as occurring during that time, lending a lot of weight (to me) to the literalness of the 1,000 year prophecy.

 

[John of Japan]

The former assistant editor for The Sword under Curtis Hudson. Is now our Pastor , John Reynolds
Small world

Tell him I said hi.