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The 10 commandments and being saved
- Thread starter Chowmah
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Yes William, Jesus did fulfil the law
MATT.5 [17] Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I AM NOT COME TO DESTROY, BUT TO FULFIL. [18] For verily I say unto you, till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
What does Jesus say? First he says he has not come to destoy the law. OK. Then he goes on to say the law is intact until heaven and earth pass. Has the earth passed? I know for a fact im still standing on this earth. So...Lets use some common sense and believe the Words of Jesus. So what did Jesus mean when he said he came to fulfill the law?
LUKE 24 [44] And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that ALL THINGS MUST BE FULFILLED, WHICH WERE WRITTEN IN THE LAW of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, CONCERNING ME.
Did he mean he came to do away with the law as the "many" claim or fulfil that which was written in the law concerning Him?
ROMANS 7 [14] For we know that THE LAW IS SPIRITUAL: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
ROMANS 15 [25] But now I go unto Jerusalem to minister unto the saints.[26] For it hath pleased them of Macedonia and Achaia to make a certain contribution for the poor saints which are at Jerusalem.[27] It hath pleased them verily; and their debtors they are. FOR IF THE GENTILES HAVE BEEN MADE PARTAKERS OF THEIR SPIRITUAL THINGS, their duty is also to minister unto them in carnal things.
Couple of scriptures proving we {gentiles} are to be keeping Gods law. So what did Jesus fulfil that was written in the law concerning Him? The meat and drink offerings of the new moons, feast days and the sabbaths. The meat and drink offerings of those days were but a shadow of Christ
HEBREWS 9 [1] Then verily THE FIRST COVENANT HAD ALS
RDINANCES of divine service, and a worldly sanctuary. [9] Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;[10] WHICH STOOD ONLY IN MEATS AND DRINKS, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformationJOHN 6 [53] Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you. [54] Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day. [55] For MY FLESH IS MEAT INDEED, and MY BLOOD IS DRINK INDEED.
And what did Jesus fulfil as to what was written of Him in the prophets {Luke 24:44}?
ISAIAH 42 [20] Seeing many things, but thou observest not; opening the ears, but he heareth not.[21] The LORD is well pleased for his righteousness' sake; HE WILL MAGNIFY THE LAW, and make it honourable.
Isaiah 42 is speaking of Jesus. Just read the whole chapter. Theres no question about it. A prophecy fulfilled! The above scripture says Jesus would come and will magnify the law. The new testament bears this out. He made the commandments even greater by telling us we are to walk in spirit of the law. If someone could, please explain how you walk in the spirit of the law concerning adultry and not also be walking in the letter.
SpiritualMadMan
New Member
This is often used as the camels nose under the tent by Messianics. They start with the ten commandments and then come the health laws, dress laws, sabbath laws and on and on.
And, all the law and the prophets are pressed upon you to the extent, that whether or not they actually believe they are required for salvation, the pressure is such that you believe it is.
For the Gentile Beliver the issue *should* have been settled in Galatians. That *NO* ritual keeping of the law was allowed or required.
Now, here's the bottom line, if you truly be in Christ, if you are truly become a New Creation, then in your heart you will keep the requirementts of God's True Law with out wearing Phylactaries or keeping a score card of any kind.
Keeping of the true requirements of God's Law and Purpose for our lives *should* become second nature without any need to post the Ten Commandments.
That's the beauty of Jesus' Statement about the Golden Rule. If His love is in our heart we *will* prefer another above ourselves and not trepass against one another.
Unfortunately, some of us are better marksmen than others and we hit the mark more easily. Some of us require far more range time to overcome bad habits, like trigger discipline, that cause us to miss the bullseye.
Under OT rendition of Law and Grace the penalty would be instant death...
Under NT rendition of Grace and Law the penalty is forgiveness, mercy and Grace contingent upon repentance.
Why would anyone want to return to a OT rendition of God's manner of dealing with us? It makse no sense. Unless it is to make us trophies for someone else ego!
Is the Law Honored as it should be? *NO*!
I am not talking about Honor as in ritual adherence. I am talking about Reverence and Awe for how God used to deal with Nations and Gratitude that he deals with us as Individual with Mercy and Grace.
But, we as modern believers have such an aversion to the Law and the Prophets it usually forces the Messianics to automatically assume the worst and use their equivalent of a 50 pound King James Bible to pound on us.
When *they* make it a necessity to ritually obey the Law and the Prophets they become Judaizers.
When they share how beautiful the Law and the Prophets were and still are...
They remain fellow believers.
And, all the law and the prophets are pressed upon you to the extent, that whether or not they actually believe they are required for salvation, the pressure is such that you believe it is.
For the Gentile Beliver the issue *should* have been settled in Galatians. That *NO* ritual keeping of the law was allowed or required.
Now, here's the bottom line, if you truly be in Christ, if you are truly become a New Creation, then in your heart you will keep the requirementts of God's True Law with out wearing Phylactaries or keeping a score card of any kind.
Keeping of the true requirements of God's Law and Purpose for our lives *should* become second nature without any need to post the Ten Commandments.
That's the beauty of Jesus' Statement about the Golden Rule. If His love is in our heart we *will* prefer another above ourselves and not trepass against one another.
Unfortunately, some of us are better marksmen than others and we hit the mark more easily. Some of us require far more range time to overcome bad habits, like trigger discipline, that cause us to miss the bullseye.
Under OT rendition of Law and Grace the penalty would be instant death...
Under NT rendition of Grace and Law the penalty is forgiveness, mercy and Grace contingent upon repentance.
Why would anyone want to return to a OT rendition of God's manner of dealing with us? It makse no sense. Unless it is to make us trophies for someone else ego!
Is the Law Honored as it should be? *NO*!
I am not talking about Honor as in ritual adherence. I am talking about Reverence and Awe for how God used to deal with Nations and Gratitude that he deals with us as Individual with Mercy and Grace.
But, we as modern believers have such an aversion to the Law and the Prophets it usually forces the Messianics to automatically assume the worst and use their equivalent of a 50 pound King James Bible to pound on us.
When *they* make it a necessity to ritually obey the Law and the Prophets they become Judaizers.
When they share how beautiful the Law and the Prophets were and still are...
They remain fellow believers.
Hi SpiritualMadMan
Where in Galatians do i find the scripture that says what you say it says
Let's look at it this way:
The gospel:
Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: (1 Corinthians 15:1-4)
The gospel here is defined by Paul--the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ. Belief in this simple message, i.e., the atoning and sacrificial work of Christ is what saves us. The message of Galatians is that anything added to this message was legalism. That entire matter was settled in Acts chapter 15.
And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved. (Acts 15:1)
--These same people exist today, don't they? Except you keep the law you cannot be saved. They were not just speaking of circumcision here, they meant the entire law.
What is legalism. Legalism is adding to the simplicity of the gospel message (as Paul defined it above). Anything more than that gospel by grace through faith is legalism. The Judaizers were legalists. Any who demand that one keep the law today are legalists, especially as it relates to their salvation. Paul took exception to this. He deemed that it was a heresy, and anyone that preached it was accursed (Gal.1:8).
Dont be so sure DHK
ACTS 15 [17] That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things. [18] Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world. [19] Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among THE GENTILES are turned to God: [20] But that we write unto them, that THEY ABSTAIN FROM POLLUTIONS OF IDOLS, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood. [21] For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.
Acts 15 as a whole was speaking as to whether gentiles needed to be circumcized or not. Nothing to do with the 10 commandments. I also found another new testament scripture about the gentiles, idols, blood, etc. and that scripture also was talking about circumcision. That being said,I decided to also look into what pollution of idols {V 20} was all about. What I found was very as always, when you let scripture interpret scripture.
LEVITICUS 19 [3] Ye shall fear every man his mother, and his father, and KEEP MY SABBATHS: I am the Lord your God. [4] TURN YE NOT UNTO IDOLS, nor make to yourselves molten gods: I am the Lord your God.
LEVITICUS 26 [1]Ye shall MAKE YOU NO IDOLS nor graven image, neither rear you up a standing image, neither shall ye set up any image of stone in your land, to bow down unto it: for I am the Lord your God. [2] YE SHALL KEEP MY SABBATHS, and reverence my sanctuary: I am the Lord.
EZEKIEL 20 [16]Because they despised my judgments, and walked not in my statutes, BUT POLLUTED MY SABBATHS: FOR THEIR HEART WENT AFTER THEIR IDOLS.
I don’t know what the connection might be as to why graven images (pollution of idols) are a sign that you don’t keep Gods sabbath but if the WORD says so I believe it. I know the churches that do keep the sabbath don’t have any standing images or crosses. Well, least the ones I know. Also, the guys and gals that go to these churches dont wear molten gods about their necks.
It did have to do with the law, and it did have to do with Gentiles.
You, sir, are a Gentile. And if not can you tell me which tribe you are from. A Gentile, by definition, is a non-Jew. Salvation is by grace through faith, and that not of yourself. It is the gift of God, not of works lest any man should boast (Eph.2:8,9). There is no law in salvation--not the Ten Commandments, no civil law, not ceremonial, not any law at all. Salvation is all of grace--the grace of God. The law is all of works--all law.
And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work. (Romans 11:6)
--Grace and works (law) do not mix. If it is by grace it cannot be by works. If it is by works it cannot be by grace. The law is works. It doesn't matter what law you refer to. You can't slice and dice the law to your satisfaction. Salvation is not of yourself. It is not of the law. It is of grace; of God, and only of God.
This is OT law written to the Jews and for the Jews. It is not applicable to us today. If you consider yourself a Jew, then please what tribe are you from.
There is not one verse in the Bible that commands a Gentile believer (which we are) to keep the sabbath; not one. You nor anyone else (including the SDA) have ever been able to show me a single verse to that effect.
SpiritualMadMan
New Member
It is interesting to me that no matter how much Grace is Ministered to a purveyor of the Law... They refuse to ackowledge or accept that Grace...
But, then DHK is far better at this than I am.
But, then DHK is far better at this than I am.
GE:
That makes God the greatest legalist of all. No man can demand of another man to keep the Law. All men are the transgressors of the Law. All men are guilty of transgressing the ONE and Great Law of all --- never mind the small stuff like the Sabbath.
A legalist is a braggart who boasts that he keeps the Law while he knows he is just as bad as the rest of all mankind at keeping God's Law or Laws. A legalist is none but the HYPOCRITE.
And this hypocrisy manifests most blatantly with the oldest of all deceptions, "Did God command you to...?" O, you don't believe that, do you, really!? Christians aren't commanded; they are persuaded .... with LOVE. But more often than not, they are persuaded by the devil's deception.
If it's according to what IS WRITTEN, you're childish and or legalist, but definitely always, without love; and ALWAYS, filled with hate and hatefulness. But if it's according to what for in vogue man is 'Christian' and Christianity, you just never CAN possibly be hatefully legalistic. So sweet!
If Paul “deemed” keeping God’s Law or Laws, “was a heresy, and anyone that preached it was accursed”, he is at loggerheads with God Himself, and with no theological school or human being. But Paul did NOT “deem”, that one who “keep the law today” or believes he should “keep the law today”, is a “legalist”— “especially as it relates to their salvation”! Paul does NOT take “exception to” God’s Law or to any man who demands of or commands all men to keep God’s Law. HE NEVER in his writings, does “this” or as much as imply “this”. Paul deemed “ANOTHER GOSPEL” THAN THE ONE HE PREACHED, “a heresy, and anyone that preached “ANOTHER GOSPEL” THAN THE ONE HE PREACHED, “accursed”.
Paul magnified the Law of God IN THAT he magnified JESUS CHRIST the Law and LIVING WORD of command of God. God shall not allow his Law be mocked; God’s Law mocked or cursed, is GOD mocked and cursed. HE SHALL REVENGE HIMSELF! God shall revenge his BROKEN LAW; He said it, from the beginning till this day today: WITH DEATH the reward of breaking, despising and trampling underfoot HIS LAW shall God take revenge --- even the breaking of His Laws of the small stuff like ‘Just eat this apple man, and you will see God lied to you.’ Or just forget that Seventh Day Sabbath of the LORD your God, man; it’s HIMSELF God wants to be worshipped …not the Sabbath Day; don’t be so fetish… you’re no legalist, are you? You’re a Christian!! Shake off those Laws, don’t WORRY the Scriptures call them all God’s laws… they're only laws.
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"God the greatest legalist of all."???
Do not slander the Lord thy God.
Learn what legalism is and don't make up your own definitions as you go along. The Bible is our authority GE, not GE is our authority.
And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved. (Acts 15:1)
But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses. (Acts 15:5)
--These were the legalists--those that said it was needful to keep the law of Moses in order to be saved.
What did Paul say?
Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear? But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they. (Acts 15:10-11)
--Not only was the great Apostle Paul able to keep the law, none of the Apostles were, nor was anyone. As Paul stated, we are saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ. He was stating that the Gentiles were saved the same way (through grace), that the early believing Jews were. The law has nothing to do with salvation. The Sabbath has nothing to do with salvation. It has been done away with. You cannot show me one command in the Bible directed to a Gentile believer that commands him to keep the Sabbath, can you?
SpiritualMadMan
New Member
With one big difference For God so loved the World that He gave Jesus...
God, even in His most Righteous Indignation has never sought to bind people and make them slaves.
But, rather redeem them and set them free, to be presuaded.
That's a big difference! A very big difference...
We are God's trophies because we are persuaded and freely follow...
Judiazers only seek to bind us and march us as their slaves in triumphant procession.
Mat 7:12 So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.
Mat 22:40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."
While these are from the NIV the KJV and underlying Greek support the premise of Grace fully encompassing and superceding The Law.
Kind a rushed to leave for work...
GE:
Yes, I can; I show you— Make straight the path! For …. THE LORD!
Can you, DHK, or any of the believed and followed, influential and opinion forming mighty of the world,
1) show one command in the Bible directed to a Gentile believer that commands him NOT to keep the Sabbath, can you?
2) show one command in the Bible directed to a Gentile believer that commands him to keep Sunday, can you?
3) show one command in the Bible directed to a Gentile believer that commands him to be saved anyhow but through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, can you?
4) show one command in the Bible directed to a Gentile believer that condemns him, that should he or “The Body of Christ’s Own … feast Sabbaths’-Feast”, he or “The Body” shall forfeit salvation through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, can you?
And can PAUL – FOR THAT MATTER –, show one command in the Bible directed to a Gentile believer that condemns him: “Christ shall help you nothing, you are fallen from grace”, should “you have returned to YOUR weak and miserable former first principle no-gods” of Gentile “philosophy” and “mind-dominion” through the “power” of the “kingdom of darkness” by which “we formerly were alienated from and (made) enemies (of God) in mind by wicked works” that “the Father hath delivered us” from— the “weak and miserable former first principle no-gods” of the FOUR “ELEMENTAL … NO-GODS” OF THE GREEK “WORLD” and “WISDOM” and “TRADITIONS OF MEN”: “DAYS, MONTHS, SEASONS, YEARS”— the hermaphrodite “Queen of Days” ranking above all : “The Day of the Lord SUN”!
Can Paul? He can; he does; he DID!
On this basis, that Paul was stating that the Gentiles were saved the same way (through grace), that the early believing Jews were, the law of the Sabbath Day indeed has nothing to do with salvation but that it is the GOD-GIVEN and therefore eschatological-IMPERATIVE SIGN of the CHURCH of Christ Jesus; and the Sabbath indeed has nothing to do with salvation but that it is the GOD-GIVEN and THEREFORE eschatological-IMPERATIVE DAY for and of, Christ’s-FEAST OF “eating and drinking of” CHRIST spiritually by faith, in ‘UN-CONDEMNABLE’ and ‘INALIENABLE’ FREEDOM OF CHRIST’S SALVATION.
The ‘Jewish sabbath’ that lives of and thrives on the Law of the Letter that kills, “has been done away with”. “Behold! Everything has been made NEW.”
It is “The Lord’s Day”—
the Lord Jesus’ Day;
“the Sabbath the Son of Man is Lord of”,
“the Seventh Day God thus concerning
… in these last days
… spake
… to us
… through the SON
… and God the Seventh Day from ALL his works, RESTED!”—
“the Sabbath of the LORD your (the Church’s) God!” Sela!
The Lord rose from the dead!
Christ indeed rose from the dead!
“It is the Day the LORD has made;
let US – the Church of Jesus Christ – be GLAD IN IT!”
for Christ “IN” it,
“TRIUMPHED!”
“IN THE FULFILLED PURPOSE, THE END, OF THE SABBATH DAY…”
Not good enough for DHK to be God ‘commanding’ “the People of God for (whom) a keeping of the Sabbath Day remains valid”?
But DHK cannot show me one command in the Bible directed against a Gentile believer “FEASTING OF CHRIST”, in Christ, through faith in Christ, to the glory and worship of the Lord Jesus Christ “THE BODY BELONGING TO CHRIST … SABBATHS’!”
Can you, DHK? Then DO! Show me; show us, SHOW GOD! From the Scriptures, DHK, from the Scriptures! Not from the “traditions of men”, and absolutely NOT with the WEAK AND BEGGARLY CORRUPTIONS OF MEN OF THE SCRIPTURES!
How many times must DHK and GE go over this again?!
What is going to open your eyes one day, DHK?
If it's not going to be the salvation Christ wrought and finished all the works of God with and by which only ever God "RESTED", NOTHING is ever going to!
What is going to open your eyes one day, DHK?
If it's not going to be the salvation Christ wrought and finished all the works of God with and by which only ever God "RESTED", NOTHING is ever going to!
My eyes have been opened to the truth. Examine the Scriptures you have quoted and others if you like.
Is there one COMMAND among them that COMMANDS the Gentile believer to keep the Sabbath.
You didn't give me a single verse that commands anyone to keep the sabbath; not one. There is no command to keep the sabbath. You have faulty reasoning. Salvation is by grace through faith. The Christian life is to be lived by faith in this day and age of grace.
Note: Now that this thread has finally reached 30 pages it will soon be closed.
GE:
Thanks for a last attempt at persuading DHK to a change in approach and viewpoint....
And so have my eyes been opened to the truth. Examine the Scriptures you have NOT quoted and others if you like.
Is there one COMMAND among them that COMMANDS the Gentile believer to keep the Sabbath?
There most certainly is, if your eyes been opened to the truth. ALL the Scriptures are for our education and knowledge in understanding the Gospel of Christ. It in NO way whatsoever diminishes the TRUTH IN CHRIST about the Sabbath Day of the Lord Jesus’ LORDSHIP, RULE, and COMMAND.
Of course you will deny I gave you verse and chapter and Book of Scriptures that command THE BELIEVER AND WILLING TO BELIEVE AND OBEY CHRIST in the ‘keeping’ of the Sabbath of the LORD God Unchangeable; ENOUGH for the humble.
That “there is no command to keep the sabbath”, is LYING FROM YOUR MOUTH, DHK. You are the one who has faulty reasoning. Salvation is by grace through faith, YES! Does GE for one moment deny it? God is his witness; fortunately, not DHK! The Christian life is to be lived by faith in this day and age of grace as well as deception, hoax and fraud; ask me, I, GE, live in it.
Thinkingstuff
Active Member
Blessed are you, Lord God, King of the Universe, who has made sanctified us with the Law and instructed us conserning the fringes.
Instead of the personal attack; calling me a liar; why not just quote me a verse that commands me to keep the Sabbath?
Since you cannot do that you attack me???
This is a debate board GE. Respect the rules.
GE:
Yes, I have wronged you, DHK. I ask your forgiveness. I plead guilty to the Law, Our Living Law and Word and Judgment Jesus Christ our Lord. No one is just in the sight of Him the ONLY Righteous One of God; "The LORD our RIGHTEOUSNESS" - one 'Commandment', from the Old Testament and ministration of the LAW. Would you agree, DHK, this word: "THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS" is the Law and Command of God that we should keep righteousness our own unrighteousness DESPITE? Do you agree DHK, this Word is a Command of our God --- the Word of God before which I, and You, ALIKE stand SINNERS before a holy GOD-- GOD, Who IS, our LAW?
[B]We live by mercy and forgiveness; that is the Commandment of God. [/B]
Quite true. Christ gave many commands. But the Sabbath was never one of them.
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