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The $100,000 Roman Catholic Question.

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Eliyahu

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Briony-Gloriana said:
....wow, so I can murder and do all sorts of wicked things AND still go to heaven.....oh my oh my
You and Agnes cannot understand what is the Gospel and therefore may still remain as unconverted.

You are criticizing in the same way as Paul's slanderers did:

Romans 3:
8 And not rather, (as we be slanderously reported, and as some affirm that we say,) Let us do evil, that good may come? whose damnation is just.


You may have never had the experience of knowing the Forgiveness of Sins at the Cross, and therefore you have to continue to ask God to forgive and forgive, and forgive! Have you ever prayed until you get the reply from God? What was the answer ?

This is why Roman Catholics don't understand the Gospel as the devout Roman Catholic Adolf Hitler killed the millions of people without knowing the truth of Gospel.
 

Darron Steele

New Member
Eliyahu said:
Is Catholic Mass correct?

The priests all the time request God to forgive their sins! They never bring the Gospel that such sins were already forgiven at the Cross. If they do so, they will find no reason to ask again God to forgive their sins next week. They keep their people in the darkness, without knowing the Gospel that Jesus paid all the price for the sins Once For All.
Briony-Gloriana said:
....wow, so I can murder and do all sorts of wicked things AND still go to heaven.....oh my oh my
Matt Black said:
What the heck has Constantine got to do with it? Oh yes, I forgot, he invented the Catholic Church, didn't he (according to your revisionist version of history) and was therefore a Bad Man(TM).

B-G, you're so right; I'm getting bevvied up on Jack Daniels as we speak and off to pay a visit to my favourite brothel shortly, as that's obviously OK with Eliyahu.
Briony-Gloriana and Matt Black: I agree with you that Constantine had nothing to do with the creation of Catholicism. Catholicism and Orthodoxy are two outgrowths of a process of changes begun by most of the the post-New Testament church.

I place 1054 as the beginning of the Roman Catholic denomination. That was the year the bishop of Rome decided he was no longer going to accept being disagreed with by his fellow metropolitan bishops. That year, he decreed `outside the church' those he disagreed with, and initiated what is called "The Great Schism."

I get tired of all the bad-mouthing I see toward Catholics. I have objected to such things time and again. Catholics get accused of worshiping Mary rather than God, for example. I have seen it also outrageously alleged that as long as a Catholic follows the correct rites, s/he has a license to sin.

Which brings me to what you are doing. The fact that Jesus Christ died for my sin, and took care of it nearly 2000 years before I was even conceived, does not give me a license to sin. It puts me in my place and Christ in His place. God is so holy, and humanity so sinful, that we can take no action for our salvation. What Christ did must receive all the credit for our redemption.

The Mass is biblically wrong. The Mass is called a "sacrifice" in English-speaking ceremonies, which means every time Mass is offered, a "sacrifice" is made. Hebrews 10:12 says of Jesus Christ "but he, when he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God" (ASV).

The fact that the "one sacrifice for sins for ever" has already been offered gives no one a license for sin. Christians in Catholicism and outside of Catholicism are all told at Ephesians 2:8-10 "by grace you have been saved through faith" (ESV). Now, faith does not mean some kind of intellectual assent. Acts 16:31b says “Believe on the Lord Jesus|, and you will be saved’” (ASV|NASB). When this happens, we are saved regardless of any errors we have. However, when we genuinely believe Jesus Christ to be Lord, we act like it. That goes for Catholic Christians, Orthodox Christians, Protestant Christians, and `whatever else' Christians.
 
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Matt Black

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Darron, I agree with everything (I - and I suspect B-G too - was being tongue-in-cheek in my remarks) you posted except about the Mass: again, it's a commonly-held misrepresentation of the Catholic position like the other examples you highlighted - what happens at Mass is not that Jesus is re-sacrificed but that His sacrifice once and for all is re-presented; a subtle but nevertheless important distinction.

(BTW, yet again, for the record, I'm not Catholic anymore and haven't been fro over 20 years but that's my understanding of the Catholic position from (a)my upbringing (b) my Catholic relatives, two of whom are priests and (c) my Catholic friends.)
 

Darron Steele

New Member
I disagree with you that the distinction is important, but you and I can agree to disagree about the Mass. I would rather do that than have anything to do with the types of Catholic bashing that I see on this board.

To the rest of the first paragraph, I add a hearty "Amen."
 
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Eliyahu

Active Member
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Briony and Agnes,

Here is some more explanation on the Mass issue.

Let's say that you were assaulted by a man, but you forgave him at your own expense and notified such forgiveness to him.
However, he comes to you every day, asking your forgiveness again and again, then you attached an advertizement in the best selling book that his sins were forgiven. But he comes everyday to you and ask the forgiveness for his sins, then you tried to tell him that his sins were already forgiven, but he went away without listening to you. Then would you like him yet?

If I were he, I would be very much thankful to you all the time, and would praise your grace. Then would you condemn me for the Impudence and for the wickedness to commit the sins again?

Do you understand that I would not try to commit the sins any more because I appreciate your grace so much and love you for your mercy and do not want to bother you any more?

In the Mass, I have noticed so many times, the Priests never brought the Gospel that such sins were already forgiven at the Cross forever after he asked God to forgive the sins. If he brought such Gospel, then he had no reason to ask God to forgive the sins next week, and that's why the priest never mentioned that those sins for which he asked God to forgive were already forgiven at the Cross.

God doesn't provide you another Cross because the Cross which Jesus suffered was enough forever.
Catholic Mass is absolutely wrong!
 
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Agnus_Dei

New Member
Matt Black said:
Darron, thanks.:)

Eliyahu, I'm genuinely curious - so what do you say to God when you've just sinned?
I’m betting Eliyahu has never been to a Catholic Mass, if he’s been, he didn’t go with the intentions of learning, reading a missal or paying attention to the Liturgy.
-
 

DHK

<b>Moderator</b>
Matt Black said:
Darron, thanks.:)

Eliyahu, I'm genuinely curious - so what do you say to God when you've just sinned?
I am sure that he didn't say:

[FONT=&quot]"Confiteor Deo omnipotenti, beatae Mariae semper Virgini, beato Michaeli Archangelo..."

[/FONT]
 

Eliyahu

Active Member
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Agnus_Dei said:
I’m betting Eliyahu has never been to a Catholic Mass, if he’s been, he didn’t go with the intentions of learning, reading a missal or paying attention to the Liturgy.
-

Both Matt and Agnes,

When we committed a sin, and we realize it, then we repent, and confess to God, then He shows us the forgiveness which was done already at the Cross.

Read this:
1 John 1:
9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Have you ever prayed God to forgive your sins? Then what was the answer from God? Oh, your prayers are quite excellent! and therefore I am gonna forgive you now! Did He say so?

You guys sound like never prayed enough until you get the answer!

I have been to the Catholic Mass several times, then every week, on TV they show us the Catholic Mass, on some channels, everyday they show the Mass.

If you have not realized the fundamental problem with Catholic Mass yet, you have never had the experience of Being Born Again. I repeat this, you have never had the experience of Forgiveness of Sins.
Catholic Mass has a fundamental problem with the Forgiveness of Sins because it is against what Jesus has done!
The Mass never brings the Gospel saying all the Sins were forgiven Once For All at the Cross when Jesus cried " Tetelestai" " IT IS FINISHED"

You are sure that your future sins were not forgiven!
Your past was the future of the time when Jesus died at the Cross.
You believe that the Redemption by Jesus was limited to the past only!

So, your religion is quite different from my religion, right?
 

D28guy

New Member
Matt,

"...I'm genuinely curious - so what do you say to God when you've just sinned?"

"God, THANK YOU that I have been freed from the condemenation of the Law, for my penalty would have been death. THANK YOU that you took those sins upon yourself and paid my penalty. THANK YOU that you are now alive in me and will be prompting me to choose the right way next time. I have sinned, but because of your work on my behalf I am still your dearly and eternally loved child. Now...help me and strenghten me as I return now to the pathway of truth. In Jesus name I pray, Amen"

God bless,

Mike
 

Gerhard Ebersoehn

Active Member
Site Supporter
Matt Black said:
Darron, I agree with everything (I - and I suspect B-G too - was being tongue-in-cheek in my remarks) you posted except about the Mass: again, it's a commonly-held misrepresentation of the Catholic position like the other examples you highlighted - what happens at Mass is not that Jesus is re-sacrificed but that His sacrifice once and for all is re-presented; a subtle but nevertheless important distinction.

(BTW, yet again, for the record, I'm not Catholic anymore and haven't been fro over 20 years but that's my understanding of the Catholic position from (a)my upbringing (b) my Catholic relatives, two of whom are priests and (c) my Catholic friends.)

GE:

I have formed my impressions of Roman Catholicism and specifically of the mass through reading hopefully objectively, and as far as i can see, you the fact you had been a RC yourself despite, have the wrong idea about more than just the mass. You're wrong also concerning their worship of Mary. I'm sorry to say.
The Roman Catholic Church has always in the eyes of true Protestants been anti-christ. I think it today more than ever before, is anti-christ still.

And Eliyahu is right where he basically agrees with you that the remission of sins had been done with by Jesus through the sacrifice of Himself.

But we believers still ask for that very forgiveness, because we, without it cannot for a moment go on. It is the same as with saying thanks to God for what Jesus had done once for all. We cannot do without it; and God wants it and loves it that we keep on thanking Him and asking Him for the forgiveness of our sins. We live by it every second of our lives --- or that is how I have experienced the hard - very hard - reality of this life.

Why should we for example keep on observing the Lord's Supper but for this very strengthening in the Faith and perseverence in the good fight?
What did Jesus leave His Church the Lord's Day for? Why do we listen to the preaching of the Word again and again though have had come to knowledge of jesus Christ?

Because every time we grow in grace and better understand forgiveness. Not that we think God the first time had not forgiven our sins already!
 

Bro. James

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The $100,000 RC Question

Word study for today: trans-(s)ubstanti-ation (transubstantiation). Consider the mechanism of the literal changing of bread into flesh and wine into blood.

Further study: in hoc signo vinces

Point to ponder: Whence cometh such magical powers?

Choose wisely,

Bro. James
 
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Eliyahu

Active Member
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Briony, Agnes, Matt,

Did you see what D28 confessed?

Let's hear some more from other believers such as DHK, Rufus1611, Webdog, and anyone else who have a clear experience of Salvation, the Forgiveness of the sins.

Dear DHK, Rufus1611, Webdog, and other Believers if you are here on this thread, would you give some testimony about what you do, when you realized that you committed a sin, so that dear Catholic friends realize what is wrong with the Catholic Mass where the priests continue to ask God to forgive the sins of the people without bringing the Good News that all the sins including the sins that the priest ask the forgiveness were already forgiven at the Cross, never bringing the Gospel that Jesus paid the price for all the sins ONCE FOR ALL.

How do you do with the sins that you committed and realized after you were saved?

I don't want to go over to Transubstantiation matter of the Mass, but want to specify the subject on the Ever-Forgiveness Asking MASS.

I wish Catholic friends realize the difference between " Confessing the Sins" and "Ever Asking the Forgiveness"

If anyone was truly born again, it means she or he has experienced the Forgiveness of her or his sins. Then such person cannot sit in a Catholic Church, consenting to the Priests who ask God to forgive the sins without ever bringing the Gospel that all the sins were forgiven at the Cross when Jesus cried " IT IS FINISHED"

Catholic Mass has a fundamental and real problem with the Redemption at the Cross.
 

Agnus_Dei

New Member
If you guys want to discuss the Catholic Mass, what it is and isn't, then by all means start a new thread...This thread has run its course...

-
 
Ps104_33,

Originally Posted by CarpentersApprentice

Ps104_33, In your OP what do you mean by "demonstratively traceable to the apostolic age"? CA
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Ps104_33, 2nd Request. CA
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Ps104_33, 3rd Request. CA
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Ps104_33, 4th Request. CA
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Ps104_33, 5th Request. CA

Ps104_33,

6th Request.

CA
 

Matt Black

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Eliyahu, I would direct you to what GE has said on the subject of forgiveness. Yes, I know (despite your implication, which I resent, that I'm not a True Believer(TM)) that all my sins have been dealt with, paid for and forgiven at the Cross, and that the moment I turned to Christ, all my sins, past present and future were/are/will be forgiven. But that doesn't alter the fact that when I sin, my relationship with God through Jesus is damaged - I have hurt Him and it is right and proper that I seek to be reconciled with Him by apologising.i don't particularly want to get into the distinction between salvation and sanctification here, but suffice it to say that, although for salvation an act of repentance is required, for continued sanctification, continued repentance is required. That's how I read I John 1:9-2:2. Let me take an analogy from marriage: when I married my wife I made a covenant with her that stands once and for all and brought the marriage into being. But I also recognise that I offend and hurt her frequently by my actions and, in order for our relationship and marriage to be healthy, it's important that I apologise for those hurts, seek her forgiveness and thus restore the relationship. It's the same with God and me.
 

Eliyahu

Active Member
Site Supporter
Matt Black said:
Eliyahu, I would direct you to what GE has said on the subject of forgiveness. Yes, I know (despite your implication, which I resent, that I'm not a True Believer(TM)) that all my sins have been dealt with, paid for and forgiven at the Cross, and that the moment I turned to Christ, all my sins, past present and future were/are/will be forgiven.
If you have such spiritual experience and establish the relationship with God, your view will be completely changed.

But that doesn't alter the fact that when I sin, my relationship with God through Jesus is damaged - I have hurt Him and it is right and proper that I seek to be reconciled with Him by apologising.i don't particularly want to get into the distinction between salvation and sanctification here, but suffice it to say that, although for salvation an act of repentance is required, for continued sanctification, continued repentance is required.
Salvation and Sanctification are not much different, correct.

That's how I read I John 1:9-2:2. Let me take an analogy from marriage: when I married my wife I made a covenant with her that stands once and for all and brought the marriage into being. But I also recognise that I offend and hurt her frequently by my actions and, in order for our relationship and marriage to be healthy, it's important that I apologise for those hurts, seek her forgiveness and thus restore the relationship. It's the same with God and me.
There is much much difference between human and divine. God's mercy is indefinite. When you CONFESS your sins to God, you better get the answer from Him. YOu better confess your sins and pray until you get the forgiveness from God. Then God will give you the forgiveness. But He doesn't say " Hey Matt, your prayer reached the minimum limit that I can forgive you! You are a good man now. I am gonna forgive you!"
But God will tell you that " Hi Matt, your sins were forgiven when my Son Jesus died at the Cross. That sin you specifically asked the forgiveness for was included in my forgiveness at the Cross."
If you don't repent and confess your sins enough, then you will not hear the voice from God, you will remain in the status of unforgiven continuously. You will not have the peace in your mind. God would not help your life. However, if you repent and confess your sins until you hear from Him the forgiveness, you will find the peace.

The difference here is that God forgive you retrospectively by reminding you that the Redemption at the Cross was good enough for your sins Once For All. God doesn't provide another Cross. If you cannot believe the First Cross, then another Cross will not be effective either.
This is why it is important that the preacher must explain about the Cross when he mention the sins to be forgiven. If the priest ask God to forgive the sins, then never bring the good news that all the sins were already forgiven at the Cross, he is ignorant about the Gospel.
If you had the actual experience to hear the voice from God, how did God say to you when He forgave you?
Many people pour out their requests to God that He may forgive their sins, then they guess that their sins may have been forgiven because they prayed enough, then disappear from God!. Praying until you get the answer from God is quite different from such habitual practice that one pray and GUESS God forgave his sins because he prayed quite a lot.
Not the Guess, but the Actual voice is the start of the guidance in daily life.
 
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