The $100,000 Roman Catholic Question.

[Matt Black]

I restore the relationship with God by CONFESSING my sins everyday.

Do you ASK GOD to forgive your sins? I can understand it! Because you don't believe that your sins were forgiven already!

I do both confess my sins and ask God for forgiveness in order that He may restore and heal our relationship, because this is eminently Biblical (eg: I John 1:9 again) and also because I do the same in my marriage: if I sin (heck, not if, when) I sin against my wife I damage our relationship and it is right and proper for me to apologise and ask for ther forgiveness to restore that relationship. If I took the attitude to her that you and Mike suggest - "Oh, Honey, I've done you wrong but I'm so grateful that we're married" - I don't think my marriage would last that long in real terms; it seems to me that the attitude thus suggested amounts to a pretty cavalier attitude both about sin and towards God and grossly cheapens the precious work of grace effected by Jesus upon the Cross...but maybe that's just me...

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Indeed very much often everyday I pray God, and confess my sinfulness to God. Do you know how to distinguish between CONFESS and ASK?

Did God leave anything to be done at your request?

Do you believe God has forgiven your sins?

If so, do you still request God to forgive?

What does God owe to you?

AGAIN: TELL ME what is the DIFFERENCE between CONFESS and ASK !

If you do not reply properly, it will make me doubt about your salvation!

GE:

This exactly illustrates what I always say, Don't kill the paradox!

You are too cerebral; too carefull. When you confess, but carefully don't ask, it sort of present a kind of works-righteousness. No I find confessing without asking forgiveness, too reserved, as though not quite acknowledging my sins. How can I confess my sins to God but not ask His forgiveness at once? Impossible! It's not at all that one doen't believe in Jesus once for all atonement for one's sins!

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Eliyahu:

"Fake Christians can never anwer my question : What was the Answer from God when you prayed God to forgive your sins?"

GE:

This contradicts your very claim that one should not "ASK" for forgiveness.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Eliyahu:

"Fake Christians can never anwer my question : What was the Answer from God when you prayed God to forgive your sins?"

GE:

Here's another reason for always asking forgiveness for the forgivenes we already have in Jesus, that we constantly discover more sins of our own sinfulness, in our own sinfulness. I never thought I could be so bad; I imagined I, do not have this weakness or that -- now I see I'm just like the rest; it's one of my sins too ---- so I won't wait to ask God's forgiveness.

I said here's another reason or example, because what you say here, exposes a proud and boastful spirit. If others cannot compare with my standards, they are 'fake Christians'.

Then also you place God under obligation; He must, give you an 'answer'. Doesn't that sound quite 'faky' to you?

 

[Eliyahu]

Dear GE and Matt,

Both of you have never answered me HOW GOD answered your prayer requests when you asked God to forgive your sins!

You never brought your own testimony on how God answered you!

Again, Remember my argument doesn't point out "Asking God to forgive" only, but I have been pointing out always that Roman Catholic Mass ask God to forgive the sins always, but never bring the Gospel that their sins were already forgiven at the Cross. Once they start to deliver the Gospel to the pews, then it means that all the sins were forgiven at the Cross, then from next week, they find no need for the Mass which is an imitation sacrifice, a Fake Sacrifice. All the sins were forgiven, then why do they need another sacrifice ( Mass)? That's why they never bring the Gospel that all the sins were forgiven, even including the sins which they asked the forgiveness for.

Now turning to your prayer, you can CONFESS and eventually you can look forward to hearing the good news from God, that your sins are forgiven. However, when you hear the actualm voice from God, how was the answer?
I already taught you that the true believers hear the answer from God, that such sins were forgiven at the Cross, God doesn't tell you that your prayers are enough, you prayed very much hard, you are good boys! and therefore I am gonna forgive you! Did you hear that?
Matt you may have heard such words from your wife! But God is different!
There is no forgiveness without directing to Jesus Christ and what He did at the Cross!
Repeatedly I asked you what was the answer from God!
You could never answer me!

How could you confess your belief that all of my sins were forgiven, and thank God for the forgiveness, then quickly ask God to forgive? Was the previous confession a kind of show or lip service to God?
I am not pointing out asking forgiveness alone, and if you found a way to compromise this contradiction, you can ask God to forgive your sins.
But in general, I can discern between the fake Christian and True Christian if I ask this question. Could you find the forgiveness from God, away from the Cross?

 

[Eliyahu]

Here's another reason for always asking forgiveness for the forgivenes we already have in Jesus, that we constantly discover more sins of our own sinfulness, in our own sinfulness. I never thought I could be so bad; I imagined I, do not have this weakness or that -- now I see I'm just like the rest; it's one of my sins too ---- so I won't wait to ask God's forgiveness.

Did you get the forgiveness from God?

How did God forgive you?

 

[Eliyahu]

Fake Christians can never anwer my question :" What was the Answer from God when you prayed God to forgive your sins?"


Because they never heard the actual forgiveness from God!

 

[Eliyahu]

Many people misunderstand this verse, and therefore I would translate it here:

Acts 3:19.

Μετανοησατε ουν και επιστρεψατε, εισ το εξαλειφθηναι υμων τασ αμαρτιασ, οπωσ αν ελθωσι καιροι αναψυξεωσ απο προσωπου του Κυριου

Repent ye therefore, and turn to the fact that your sins were wiped out ( already), so that the time of refreshing soul may come from the face of the Lord.

The point is the word " exaleipsthenai "(wipe out). This word is aorist passive. Aorist means the past tense.

Why does Bible use the Past tense for the future?

I showed you John 20:23. How come Bible say the sins are forgiven for the future?

"Whosoever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them"

Bible is very much mindful about the tense.

Read John 5:24. The Elizabethan Tense is not the same as the modern tense.

"He that heareth my word, and believeth on Him that sent me, has everlasting life, and do not come into condemnation but has been passed from the death to the life."

Μεταβεβηκεν= moved, passed, perfect tense.

How come Perfect tense? How come does Jesus say the believer has Everlasting life while he or she may believe in the future?

How is the relationship and time sequense between Believing and getting Eternal Life ?

If you do not have the PERSONAL RELATIONSHIP with God, you can hardly answer my question, even though you may make some Guesswork.

 

[Eliyahu]

Eliyahu:

"Fake Christians can never anwer my question : What was the Answer from God when you prayed God to forgive your sins?"

GE:

Here's another reason for always asking forgiveness for the forgivenes we already have in Jesus, that we constantly discover more sins of our own sinfulness, in our own sinfulness. I never thought I could be so bad; I imagined I, do not have this weakness or that -- now I see I'm just like the rest; it's one of my sins too ---- so I won't wait to ask God's forgiveness.

I said here's another reason or example, because what you say here, exposes a proud and boastful spirit. If others cannot compare with my standards, they are 'fake Christians'.

Then also you place God under obligation; He must, give you an 'answer'. Doesn't that sound quite 'faky' to you?

Fake Christians can never answer that question!!!!!

They just beat around the bush, because they have never heard the Answer from God in person.

 

[Doubting Thomas]

"And it came to past that as He (JESUS) was praying in a certain place, when He ceased, one of His disciples said unto Him, 'Lord, teach us to pray as John also taught his disciples.' And He said unto them....
'When ye pray, say: Our Father who art in Heaven, hallowed be they name. Thy Kingdom come. Thy will be done on earth as it is in Heaven. Give us this day our daily bread, AND FORGIVE US OUR SINS, for we also forgive everyone who is indebted to us.'" (Luke 11:1-4)

So it's right here in the "red-letters" that Christ instructs us when we pray that, contrary to what certain posters in this thread have asserted, we are to ask our Father to forgive us our sins. He didn't say: ''...But after I die on the cross this prayer is null and void". (Nor did He say that after He died on the cross we were no longer obliged to forgive others in order to be forgiven by God.) I'm now waiting for the "creative" attempts that certain posters will make in order to spin Christ's words to mean the opposite of what He actually said. (And of course, others will no doubt self-righteously pontificate how they never pray this prayer despite our Lord's instruction to do so). I've come to expect nothing less from all the arm chair theologians on this message board who distort plain Scriptures when the words are counter to their pet doctrines (eg claiming that James really did NOT mean that we are justified by works and not by faith only---James 2:24). Of course, there is a word to describe the act of twisting the Scriptures to mean the opposite of what they are clearly saying in order to fit one's novel interpretative theory. It's called "HERESY".

I just pray that certain posters will repent of their false teachings and ASK FORGIVENESS of God for distorting His Holy Scriptures inspite of whatever their "testimony" may be.

DT

 

[BobRyan]

So it's right here in the "red-letters" that Christ instructs us when we pray that, contrary to what certain posters in this thread have asserted, we are to ask our Father to forgive us our sins. He didn't say: ''...But after I die on the cross this prayer is null and void".

That much is true sir. That is not a distinctive between Catholics and Protestants. There are those Christians in both groups that would agree with that statement.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Eliyahu]

"And it came to past that as He (JESUS) was praying in a certain place, when He ceased, one of His disciples said unto Him, 'Lord, teach us to pray as John also taught his disciples.' And He said unto them....
'When ye pray, say: Our Father who art in Heaven, hallowed be they name. Thy Kingdom come. Thy will be done on earth as it is in Heaven. Give us this day our daily bread, AND FORGIVE US OUR SINS, for we also forgive everyone who is indebted to us.'" (Luke 11:1-4)

So it's right here in the "red-letters" that Christ instructs us when we pray that, contrary to what certain posters in this thread have asserted, we are to ask our Father to forgive us our sins. He didn't say: ''...But after I die on the cross this prayer is null and void". (Nor did He say that after He died on the cross we were no longer obliged to forgive others in order to be forgiven by God.) I'm now waiting for the "creative" attempts that certain posters will make in order to spin Christ's words to mean the opposite of what He actually said. (And of course, others will no doubt self-righteously pontificate how they never pray this prayer despite our Lord's instruction to do so). I've come to expect nothing less from all the arm chair theologians on this message board who distort plain Scriptures when the words are counter to their pet doctrines (eg claiming that James really did NOT mean that we are justified by works and not by faith only---James 2:24). Of course, there is a word to describe the act of twisting the Scriptures to mean the opposite of what they are clearly saying in order to fit one's novel interpretative theory. It's called "HERESY".

I just pray that certain posters will repent of their false teachings and ASK FORGIVENESS of God for distorting His Holy Scriptures inspite of whatever their "testimony" may be.

DT

Does Lord's taught prayer teach you " I thank God for thy beloved Son who shed the precious blood at the Cross so that my sins were forgiven" ?
Have you ever thanked God for what Jesus has done at the Cross?

Have you ever heard the Answer from God when you ASKED God to forgive your sins? Did you just pray in vain? Have you ever prayed until you get the answer?

Remember and don't accuse me only with part of what I pointed out!

YOU CAN ASK GOD TO FORGIVE YOUR SINS! But tell me what was the Answer from God?

I mentioned " Catholic Mass is absolutely wrong, because Priests ever-ask God to forgive the sins, then never bring the Gospel that the sins were already forgiven at the Cross! If they bring such Gospel, then they have no reason to offer the Imitation Sacrifice from next week. They lose their business!

Why don't they bring the answer from God?

Again, tell me your experience and testimony, if your God forgave your sins at least once, how did God forgive you? What did He say to you?

As you pointed out, I wouldn't mind about ASKING God to forgive!, but if the priest continue to Ever-ASK God to forgive without bringing the Gospel, he doesn't know the Gospel.
If you ever asked God to forgive your sins, then you must have heard the Answer from Him, right? but did you go away from Him? What was the Answer? You can answer if you are not a fake Christian.

 

[Eliyahu]

That much is true sir. That is not a distinctive between Catholics and Protestants. There are those Christians in both groups that would agree with that statement.

In Christ,

Bob

You don't find the problem with Catholic Mass, apart from Transubstantiation, do you?
That's why I thought SDA is quite a lot based on Works, not what Jesus has done Once For All. You have to do a lot.
True Christians cannot sit in the Catholic Mass which mess up the Gospel.

 

[BobRyan]

Catholic Mass does contain error in the insistance on worshipping a piece of bread as though it were God --

However the Lord's Supper among non-Catholics does not serve that purpose.

The RC confessional - where people confess their sins to their priests to get absolution certainly is another form of RC error.

But I do not need to negate the Lord's Prayer to clearly define those RC doctrinal errors.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Eliyahu:

"Both of you have never answered me HOW GOD answered your prayer requests when you asked God to forgive your sins!"

GE:

Jesus said He would never show away anyone who would come to Him. So God has always answered our prayers, without fail, once. And He each time has answered favourably, affirming, "Your sins are forgiven you". If we go to the Father through the Son, God has no other answer; and He always has the same answer at hand, "Come unto Me and I shall give you rest!"

 

[Eliyahu]

Eliyahu:

"Both of you have never answered me HOW GOD answered your prayer requests when you asked God to forgive your sins!"

GE:

Jesus said He would never show away anyone who would come to Him. So God has always answered our prayers, without fail, once. And He each time has answered favourably, affirming, "Your sins are forgiven you". If we go to the Father through the Son, God has no other answer; and He always has the same answer at hand, "Come unto Me and I shall give you rest!"

I am very glad to hear your Answer after the repeated questions!

Let me clarify your answer a little further. Does Jesus say simply your sins are forgiven now because you demanded enough or prayed enough?

 

[Eliyahu]

You should remember that the issue on Catholic mass was started this way:


Is Catholic Mass correct?

The priests all the time request God to forgive their sins! They never bring the Gospel that such sins were already forgiven at the Cross. If they do so, they will find no reason to ask again God to forgive their sins next week. They keep their people in the darkness, without knowing the Gospel that Jesus paid all the price for the sins Once For All.

________________________

Don't you find the problem with Mass yet? I don't argue about the Transubstantiation here. I am focussing only on Mass itself where the Priests repeatedly ask God to forgive the sins without bringing the Gospel that all the sins were forgiven at the Cross!

It is like that some Japanese soldiers were still hiding themselves in the jungle of Philippines without knowing that the WWII was over already!

Were any sins which Cathloic priests asked the forgiveness for not included in the forgiveness offered at the Cross?

 

[Eliyahu]

Check my posts which caused the arguments on the Catholic Mass issue.

Post #234, 245, 253.

You will find this:
******************
If anyone was truly born again, it means she or he has experienced the Forgiveness of her or his sins. Then such person cannot sit in a Catholic Church, consenting to the Priests who ask God to forgive the sins without ever bringing the Gospel that all the sins were forgiven at the Cross when Jesus cried " IT IS FINISHED"

Catholic Mass has a fundamental and real problem with the Redemption at the Cross

****************


Catholic Mass has the real problem with Redemption and Forgiveness of the sins.

If you can sit in the Catholic church without find the problems with the Mass, you don't know the Redmption by Christ correctly, or even may be a fake Christian.

 

[DHK]

Does a police man forgive me of my fine for speeding just because I ask for forgiveness?
Does a judge forgive a criminal the consequence of his crime just because the crminal asks forgiveness and promises he will never do it again?

Do we not have our common people shouting from the streets for a fair justice system: "Do the crime; pay the time!"

So it is with God. If I come to God, will He automatically forgive my sins because I ask him to? The answer is no. "The wages of sin is death." There is an eternal consequence for sin--a penalty or wage that I cannot pay, unless I am willing to suffer in hell for all eternity. In God's justices system (as in man's) the crime must be paid for. Because God is eternal, the consequence for the sin will also be eternal--eternal punishment.

My sin can only be forgiven on the basis of someone who is (or was) able to pay the penalty of the sin (crime) for me. In this case it was Jesus Christ who took my sin upon himself and paid the penalty for it when he shed his blood and died upon the cross, sacrificing himself, dying for all the sins of mankind. Only those who accept that payment can be forgiven. You will rot in hell if you don't receive the gift of eternal life--his payment for your sin.
If you don't have the money for your speeding ticket and your father pays your ticket for you then your off the hook. The penalty has been paid for you. You don't have to worry about the consequences of that ticket any longer. If you refuse the help of your father, you may suffer the eventual consequence of a jail term.
So it is with God. He is longsuffering. But his mercy stretches only so far. If, by the time of your death you still have rejected Christ, the day of grace is no longer for you. The only thing that remains is to face a God of judgment. Jail time becomes eternal in the lake of fire.

 

[Eliyahu]

DHK,

That's exactly CORRECT!
God is different from human beings, and the restoration between God and man is different. Man can apologize to another, then another person accepts such apology. Otherwise, another man will be blamed as a bad man.

But God doesn't forgive our sins unless the price for the sins are paid. Why doesn't He? Because, if God forgive our sins without the payment for it or Redemption for it, then God damages His Holiness. No sinner can acces Him. Man can accept the apology without the payment for the sins, because even the man can make the same mistakes and is not Holy and Perfect as God.

Whenever anyone realize his or her sin and request God to forgive the sin, the sin is not forgiven by God until the sinner could realize the relationship between her or his sin and the Redmption at the Cross.

Catholic Mass has often failed in connecting their prayer for the forgiveness with what Jesus has done at the Cross, and therefore they repeat the prayer for the Forgiveness continuously again and again, without bringing the Gospel that their sins which they are praying God to forgive were already forgiven at the Cross.

There is no forgiveness without remembering what Jesus has done at the Cross.

If the Catholic Priest mention that those sins were already forgiven at the Cross, then he find no reason to repeat the Mock-Sacrifice next week again.