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The $100,000 Roman Catholic Question.

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Gerhard Ebersoehn

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Eliyahu:

"However, in case of Roman Catholics, they have so many theoretic human traditions like Threefold hat for the Pope, Ankh Cross, Purgatory, Maria's Ascension, Indulgence, Extreme Unction ( anointing at the deathbed), confession to the Priest ( while there is no priest system in NT), Hierchy system of Clergy, Black gowns for the priests which were worn by Idol worshipping priests ( Chemarim in Zephania 1: 4), Lent ( common practice in Babylonian goddess worship), compulsory celibacy, nuns, etc.
What are the human tradition in Protestants comparable to the above mentioned RC traditions?"

GE:

Kindly help us out, Eliyahu -- because it seems we others are not able, or perhaps too scared, to think of what could -- and tell us yourself? Maybe then we'll strike the topic head-on.
 

Gerhard Ebersoehn

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Or do you want us to believe, Eliyahu, that Christianity outside the Roman Catholic Church, owes Roman Catholicism nothing, and has nothing to be ashamed of over against the RCC? That the rest of Christianity is absolutely pure in both doctrine and tradition? Do you insinuate that, with this your last question?
 

Gerhard Ebersoehn

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Take the Anglican Church, for example. They retained much of RC 'tradition' in form and liturgy, e.g., yet they adhere to the Westminster Confession, which to the RCC is arch heresy.
 

DHK

<b>Moderator</b>
CarpentersApprentice said:
I think that one of the earliest Baptist traditions centered on whether Christ died for all, or just for the elect. Out of this question rose the General and the Particular Baptists.
CA
A discussion or debate on doctrne is not tradition. There was a split in the Baptists over doctrine. There have been many such splits. One of the most recent has resulted because of the KJVO movement. This is not tradition. It is doctrine. And it doesn't affect salvation. It is a matter of soul liberty.
Purgatory is not found in the Bible and it does affect salvation. It is extrabiblical doctrine coming from tradition, not the Bible. It affects the very doctrine of justification of faith. It denies that Christ paid the penalty for our sins, else why should we have to pay the penalty also, in a place called purgatory.
Having soul liberty to disagree on Biblical doctrine is far different than the extrabilblical doctrine or tradition that is founded solely on tradition and affects salvation.
 

gb93433

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Ps104_33 said:
I have thrown this question out there on this board numerous times in my approximte 5 years as a member. I have seen Romanists come and go here and have yet to receive a straight answer. So I'll keep tryin. Here goes:


Can you name one oral, extrabiblical tradition, demonstratively traceable to the apostolic age, which is necessary for the faith and practice of the Church of Jesus Christ?

None of the practice of oral tradition was written down until the Bible began to be written. Salvation was in Jesus Christ several years before the writing of James (the first book of the NT) and the gospels.
 

Ps104_33

New Member
18629550_575c25a714_m.jpg
 
RE Quote: Originally Posted by Ps104_33
OK, I'll dig that tome up and read it this evening. The Church Fathers arent inspired and you have to sift through alot of heresy. I have my own sources on the fathers and I have read enough to know that it is not a good source for church doctrine.

CarpentersApprentice said:
Ps104_33,

Please clarify. Judging by your response to my suggestion that you might consult the Encyclopedia of the Early Church, I'm not sure that I understood the original question. You asked for "demonstratively traceable" "extrabiblical traditions."

What other source than the writings of the early Christians would one use to show that a practice or belief considered by some to be outside the Bible can be outlined back to the apostolic age?

CA

2nd Request.

Ps104_33, Please clarify your response. Thank you.

CA
 

Ps104 33: Can you name one oral, extrabiblical tradition, demonstratively traceable to the apostolic age, which is necessary for the faith and practice of the Church of Jesus Christ?

HP: Why would you ask this question? If the answer was “I am sorry I cannot” what in your estimation would it prove?
 

Ps104_33

New Member
What other source than the writings of the early Christians would one use to show that a practice or belief considered by some to be outside the Bible can be outlined back to the apostolic age?

Im sorry I dont understand the question. Your question is clouded in obfuscation. Do you mean other than the New Testament? If so, there isnt any other source for which we have to find doctrines of the Church.
 

Ps104_33

New Member
HP: Why would you ask this question? If the answer was “I am sorry I cannot” what in your estimation would it prove?

It would prove that millions of Roman catholics are being fooled and lured into the fiery abyss by an organization designed by men in high positions to form a state religion and manipulate the masses for control and power through a system of pomp and mysticism.
 

Doubting Thomas

Active Member
Agnus_Dei said:
The problem is that Protestants cannot agree on "which is necessary for faith and practice" :laugh:
Indeed.

They (Solo Scripturists) all seem to agree that the Bible is all that is needed for faith and practice, yet they disagree on which doctrines purportedly found in the Bible are necessary for faith and practice.

For example, Lutherans and COCers believe that Baptism is necessary for salvation while others do not. Some think that in the Eucharist we participate in the Body and Blood of Christ and therefore Communion is "necessary for faith and practice"; others don't and treat the Lord's Supper as an optional ceremony. Some say just accepting Christ as Savior is all that is needed, while others state one must submit to Him as LORD as well (ie some say works aren't necessary, some say that they are). Examples can be multiplied, but the point is that contrary combinations of doctrines which are deemed "necessary for faith and practice" are as numerous as the groups who claim to be going "only by the Book". So even when one limits those dogmas necessary for salvation to what can be found in the Scriptures (which I agree with), the problem of interpretation--and thus coming up with a consistent authoritative list of necessary doctrines--remains.
 

DHK

<b>Moderator</b>
Doubting Thomas said:
Indeed.

They (Solo Scripturists) all seem to agree that the Bible is all that is needed for faith and practice, yet they disagree on which doctrines purportedly found in the Bible are necessary for faith and practice.

For example, Lutherans and COCers believe that Baptism is necessary for salvation while others do not. Some think that in the Eucharist we participate in the Body and Blood of Christ and therefore Communion is "necessary for faith and practice"; others don't and treat the Lord's Supper as an optional ceremony. Some say just accepting Christ as Savior is all that is needed, while others state one must submit to Him as LORD as well (ie some say works aren't necessary, some say that they are). Examples can be multiplied, but the point is that contrary combinations of doctrines which are deemed "necessary for faith and practice" are as numerous as the groups who claim to be going "only by the Book". So even when one limits those dogmas necessary for salvation to what can be found in the Scriptures (which I agree with), the problem of interpretation--and thus coming up with a consistent authoritative list of necessary doctrines--remains.
Mike (D28GUY) just shredded this argument on another thread. You throw it out. But the truth is that the Catholic Church has more doctrinal differences in it and is more disorganized than evangelical Christianity does. We are more united in our message than the Catholics are.
The gospel: the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ is preached by all of us. It is a message of salvation that is to be received by faith and faith alone. Salvation is by grace through faith, and not of works as the Catholic Church preaches. We are united in this great message of salvation. We are united in the great fundamentals of the faith concerning salvation and the person and work of Jesus Christ.

You mention the COC which in my mind is a cult and outside the true realm of Christianity, just as the J.W.'s are. They believe in baptismal regeneration just as the RCC does. Those that distort the message of salvation so, fall into that category, and others fall into the category of liberal churches--denying the very fundamental doctrines of the Bible such as the virgin birth, the deity of Christ, the existence of heaven and hell. We are speaking of the unity of evangelical Christianity as opposed to the RCC faith. You have a false misconception, and even a misconception or perhaps a deceiving lie about the RCC organization itself with all of its schisms and doctrinal differences from within.
 

Doubting Thomas

Active Member
DHK said:
Mike (D28GUY) just shredded this argument on another thread. You throw it out. But the truth is that the Catholic Church has more doctrinal differences in it and is more disorganized than evangelical Christianity does.
I won't deny that there are those with doctrinal differences within the Roman Communion and that Rome is not entirely the monolith of uniform truth that some of her apologists claim her to be, but it's just a little hyperbolic to claim that Rome is MORE disorganized than "evangelical Christianity" (however you may define that entity). Do you have any facts and figures to back that up?

We are more united in our message than the Catholics are.
Again an assertion. Now how about some real proof?

The gospel: the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ is preached by all of us.
And is believed by all historic churches-Roman, Byzantine, Anglican, Coptic, Syrian, etc--as well

It is a message of salvation that is to be received by faith and faith alone.
The faith "alone" part is the problem as it contradicts explicit Scriptures (James 2:24 for starters) and the consistant teaching of the historic Apostolic Church until Martin Luther.

It Salvation is by grace through faith, and not of works as the Catholic Church preaches.
Yet one is not saved without works which is what the Bible and the Historic Churches teach.

We are united in this great message of salvation.
Which message--that Jesus died for all or only the elect? that one only need receive Him as "Savior", or also as "LORD"? That repentence is necessary or isn't?

We are united in the great fundamentals of the faith concerning salvation and the person and work of Jesus Christ.
Not so, as I pointed out above. Also, Oneness Pentecostals, just "going by the Book" deny the traditional doctrine of the Trinity. They would deny the Trinity is "fundamental"--who are you to say otherwise other than just another private interpreter of Scripture? Who breaks the tie when you or another "solo Scripturist" come up with a different list of "the great fundamentals of the faith"?

You mention the COC which in my mind is a cult and outside the true realm of Christianity, just as the J.W.'s are.
(Ah...you're mind)
They believe in baptismal regeneration just as the RCC does.
As does Luther, and the Anglicans, all the historic Church down until the time when some Radical "Reformers" denied this biblical truth.

Those that distort the message of salvation so, fall into that category,
You mean the "message of salvation" as you interpret it.

and others fall into the category of liberal churches--denying the very fundamental doctrines of the Bible such as the virgin birth, the deity of Christ, the existence of heaven and hell.
Indeed, and such apostates can be found, unfortunately, officially on the roles of both Protestant and Catholic Churches.
 

DHK

<b>Moderator</b>
Doubting Thomas said:
Your arguments are frivilous, illogical, and historically wrong.
I won't deny that there are those with doctrinal differences within the Roman Communion and that Rome is not entirely the monolith of uniform truth that some of her apologists claim her to be, but it's just a little hyperbolic to claim that Rome is MORE disorganized than "evangelical Christianity" (however you may define that entity). Do you have any facts and figures to back that up?
I could do the research for you, but don't have the time right now. However, there are evangelical missions of different stripes and colors doing the same basic work that I am doing in different nations all over the world. I meet them in foreign nations all the time. They have the same basic message though a completely different background.
Again an assertion. Now how about some real proof?
Our message is the just shall live by faith. It is a simple message. Your message is confused. You can't even give a clear definition of what the new birth is. Almost every evangelical I meet, just the common person on the street can explain the new birth. My next door neighbors (Catholics) don't have a clue as to what the new birth is, and most Catholics don't know what it means, and those Catholics that remain on this board are probably confused as to its meaning as well. Yet without it you cannot enter the kingdom of God.
And is believed by all historic churches-Roman, Byzantine, Anglican, Coptic, Syrian, etc--as well
It isn't preached by all. It isn't preached by the RCC. As I have already testified to that fact. I was in the RCC for 20 years and never heard the gospel preached once. The mass does not preach the gospel. The sacrifice of the mass as it is called has nothing to do with the preaching of the gospel.
The faith "alone" part is the problem as it contradicts explicit Scriptures (James 2:24 for starters) and the consistant teaching of the historic Apostolic Church until Martin Luther.
I can't help you with your misunderstanding of the Scriptures. The blind lead the blind and they both fall into a ditch. The Bible does not contradict itself. The historic teaching of salvation is that it is by faith and faith alone, as Luther found out. We are justified by faith. He preached that message. It was consistent with the apostles and with Bible-believers from the early churches onward. We are not speaking of RCC revisionist historians.
Yet one is not saved without works which is what the Bible and the Historic Churches teach.
Take up your argument with God, the author of Eph.2:8,9 "without works"
Your problem is that you equate the "historic church with Catholicism." No wonder you are deceived.
Which message--that Jesus died for all or only the elect? that one only need receive Him as "Savior", or also as "LORD"? That repentence is necessary or isn't?
You are straining at a gnat. Both camps are evangelical. William Carey was a Calvinist, and one of the greatest missionaries known to manking. You may want to read his biography some time.
Not so, as I pointed out above. Also, Oneness Pentecostals, just "going by the Book" deny the traditional doctrine of the Trinity. They would deny the Trinity is "fundamental"--who are you to say otherwise other than just another private interpreter of Scripture? Who breaks the tie when you or another "solo Scripturist" come up with a different list of "the great fundamentals of the faith"?
Perhaps you don't read the threads here often enough.
Oneness Pentecostals were banned from the BB, because they are a cult spreading false doctrine. Why bring in red herrings and try to smear Christianity. Have you heard of Pope Joan?
As I said at the beginning Evangelical Christianity is united in their doctrinne more than Catholics are. But you are content to throw all the cults at us. There are quite a few Catholic offshoots also that are quite extreme. How about those who believe in four-person trinity that includes Mary? :rolleyes:
(Ah...you're mind)
No, not just my mind. Need I keep emphasizing to you it is the mind of Evangelical Christianity. If you don't know what that is by now, you had better study it out, and find out. Stop misaligning all of Christianity just because you don't know how to define Christianity.
As does Luther, and the Anglicans, all the historic Church down until the time when some Radical "Reformers" denied this biblical truth.
After the Reformation it is doubtful that Luther believed in baptismal regeneration. For you cannot believe in "the just shall live by faith." and "justification by faith alone," and baptismal regeneration at the same time. I think you have your facts mixed up. As for the others, you again resort to your historic "Catholic" church which is only historic in your mind. That is illogical reasoning. It is not the "historical" church. It is only what you consider to be historical. you are deceived.
You mean the "message of salvation" as you interpret it.
If you don't know the message of "Evangelical Christianity" then I feel sorry for you. You need to learn it, that you may be saved. For it is by that message that one is saved. It is not my message. It is the message of "Evangelical Christianity," which we all agree on, and are united on. If you don't know what it is, you better find out, and act upon it immediately.
Indeed, and such apostates can be found, unfortunately, officially on the roles of both Protestant and Catholic Churches.
That is a red herring and has nothing to do with this subject. Why bring it up. The differences are not between cults or apostate churches. The differences are between Evangelical Christianity and the RCC. Our claim is that Evangelical Christianity is more united in their message and doctrine than the RCC is in theirs.
 

av1611jim

New Member
Sheesh!

10 pages and still not one clear answer.

That figures since the RCC adhereants do not even know what their own organization stands for.
 

Eliyahu

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Gerhard Ebersoehn said:
Eliyahu:

"However, in case of Roman Catholics, they have so many theoretic human traditions like Threefold hat for the Pope, Ankh Cross, Purgatory, Maria's Ascension, Indulgence, Extreme Unction ( anointing at the deathbed), confession to the Priest ( while there is no priest system in NT), Hierchy system of Clergy, Black gowns for the priests which were worn by Idol worshipping priests ( Chemarim in Zephania 1: 4), Lent ( common practice in Babylonian goddess worship), compulsory celibacy, nuns, etc.
What are the human tradition in Protestants comparable to the above mentioned RC traditions?"

GE:

Kindly help us out, Eliyahu -- because it seems we others are not able, or perhaps too scared, to think of what could -- and tell us yourself? Maybe then we'll strike the topic head-on.

My post in other thread could cover this question partly.
There are many, many Catholic minded denominations and people even among the protestant groups.
I consider Church of England is a kind of deviation from RCC, created by Henry 8 so that he might divorce and marry again, even though the later development brought them a lot of reformation imitating the protestants reformations ( Henry 8 found some reason for the divorce in the Bible as he found he should not marry his brother's ex-wife), Presbyterian came out of Roman Catholic ( Calvin was grown by Catholic, had the infant baptism, killed the people who refuse the infant baptism), See this article ( His Ashes cry out against Calvin :
http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/ashes.htm ), Methodists came out of COE as Wesley remained as the priest of COE.
But John Wesley did very well in establishing the church organizations after he was saved by listening to the gospel preached by Peter Boehler and Moravians ( 1738), and the Wesleyans were split from Methodists before Civil War (around 1843) because of their objection to Slavery system.
Today's Lutheran get along very well with Roman Catholic, which is contrary to their ancestors.
Basically those leading groups of Protestants are mostly Catholic minded, and they are ready to return to their mother church, Roman Catholic, if RCC succeed in integration of all the pagan religions in the world.

This week it was reported that Bruce Metzger died who was the chair for translating NRSV and RSV, the professor of Princeton. If you read the report, you can find how closely RCC and Presbyterians are working, and the people who oppose KJV are closer to Roman Catholic.
Read this article.

http://www.ptsem.edu/NEWS/pr-bin/2006-2007/brucemetzgerobituary06.php

I don't think all Presbyterians will join the united church of the world led by RCC, and there must be many, many faithful Christians who refuse the union with RCC ( thru something like Ecumenical Movement etc).
Those true believers among Baptists( though there will be many apostates even among the Baptists and Brethren), Brethren, Wesleyan, Menonites, Moravians will refuse the obedience to the World Pope, but remain faithful to the Lord Jesus Christ who will eventually conquer the rebellious pagan followers.

As you may know, Baptists and Brethren are not from Roman Catholic, they or their ancestors existed before the Reformation, they were persecuted by RCC, but RCC deviated from the true Christianity as we read 1 John 2:19, and read thru the true Church history. Throughout the history, there have been true churches other than RCC all the time, let alone the Eastern Church in Middle East and East Asia ( Mongolia, China, Korea, Japan, and Central Asia like Samarcand area)

As for church history, I mentioned in other thread, Pilgrim Church by EH Broadbent

http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/thailand/PC-B-001.HTM
 
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Gerhard Ebersoehn

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Psalm 104_3:

""I have always felt that a politician is to be judged by the animosities he excites in his opponents" Churchill "

GE:

A Protestant is to be judged by the animosities he excites in his opponents!
 

Gerhard Ebersoehn

Active Member
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Eliyahu, you said, "What are the human tradition in Protestants comparable to the above mentioned RC traditions?", and you gave one specific: 'baptism'.
I agree one might test the accuracy of your allegation by the Scriptures.

The rest of what you have said is vague, except perhaps that it (the 'compare-ability') all boils down to the Scriptures, whether it really is considered of Final Authority by the various church-groupings.
So let's accept that as specific number two.

Does your finding stop here?

If yes, then I don't think it says much, because what could be brought in against the one might just as well be brought in against the other, by your own rule of, "What are the human tradition in Protestants comparable to the above mentioned RC traditions?"

It's a matter of "human tradition" against The Scriptures (preferably the KJV, according to your plea above).

Then I must think of other 'deviations' Christianity in general which in this thread it is not permitted to be mentioned.
 
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