The 5 Points that lead me out of Calvinism

[OldRegular]

I don't see how you are engaging with my actual argument given that I affirm God sovereignty... His level of meticulous control over creation is subject to Him and Him alone. Would you have us believe God could not have created a world that where He is not in meticulous deterministic control? Is that just not within God's abilities according to your perspective?

You said and I

sovereignty is not an eternal attribute of God.

Therefore if Scripture is inerrant then God cannot be Sovereign anytime since Scripture tells us: Malachi 3:6. For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.

That being said, since Scripture is inerrant and Scripture teaches that God is Sovereign and Scripture teaches that God does not change your statement that:

sovereignty is not an eternal attribute of God.

is false

 

[Skandelon]

You said and I Therefore if Scripture is inerrant then God cannot be Sovereign anytime since Scripture tells us: Malachi 3:6. For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.

That being said, since Scripture is inerrant and Scripture teaches that God is Sovereign and Scripture teaches that God does not change your statement that: is false

Did you read what I wrote? I ask because if what I said is true and God's sovereignty is (AS DEFINED) only related to his control over that which is created, then nothing about his eternal nature WOULD CHANGE even after creation. If sovereignty is an eternal attribute then a change would be necessitated given that creation hasn't existed eternally.

 

[JonC]

If sovereignty is an eternal attribute then a change would be necessitated given that creation hasn't existed eternally.

God's love and mercy is often, and rightly, considered eternal attributes although this love and mercy is revealed to and through God's creation (to the extent that the fullest revelation of God was becoming flesh). God is still love without and prior to Creation. Likewise, a change would not be necessitated if you consider God's sovereignty towards that creation as an expression of His own nature.

 

[thatbrian]

God's love and mercy is often, and rightly, considered eternal attributes although this love and mercy is revealed to and through God's creation (to the extent that the fullest revelation of God was becoming flesh). God is still love without and prior to Creation. Likewise, a change would not be necessitated if you consider God's sovereignty towards that creation as an expression of His own nature.

Jon,

Prior to creation the Godhead knew the fulness of love. The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit knew an eternal love. Mercy, (and wrath) on the other hand, were not yet demonstrated, which is what Romans 9 addresses.

This is a great distinction between monotheists, such a Muslims, and trinitarians, we have a God who already knew love and relationship without the need for creation. Love is His essence: God is love. The Muslim god does not have love as his essence, only power.

Brian

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Jon,

Prior to creation the Godhead knew the fulness of love. The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit knew an eternal love. Mercy, (and wrath) on the other hand, were not yet demonstrated, which is what Romans 9 addresses.

This is a great distinction between monotheists, such a Muslims, and trinitarians, we have a God who already knew love and relationship without the need for creation. Love is His essence: God is love. The Muslim god does not have love as his essence, only power.

Brian

Would you consider the Jews as monothiests

 

[savedbymercy]

I don't understand how rejecting the "why" is rejecting the "what."

The Doctrines of Grace, the Truths of TULIP demonstrate why those Truths are the Gospel of God's Grace ! The Truths set forth tenants as to why Salvation must be of Grace 100 % ! Why, Because man by nature is totally depraved, meaning no spiritual ability at all, liken unto a dead man or person, spiritually dead in sin, to the point that in order for a person to respond positively with Faith and Repentance, they must first be made alive from the dead, like as before Lazarus could obey the command of Christ to come forth Jn 11:43, it took a miracle of Christ's Power to facilitate it, he had to be resurrected from the dead to obey come forth ! Thats an example of why !

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I am still wondering why they call salvation by grace theology Calvinism. I certainly dontwant to be associated with infant baptism, with sacrimental stuff, with inherited grace yada yada. Rather, I am a sinner saved by Gods grace and mercy and through that I have been given a conscience and thus become a moral person responsible for my Christian walk. What always gets missed is Gods moral governance in mans spiritual development....that we are given the freedom to make moral decisions for ourselves.

 

[OldRegular]

Did you read what I wrote? I ask because if what I said is true and God's sovereignty is (AS DEFINED) only related to his control over that which is created, then nothing about his eternal nature WOULD CHANGE even after creation. If sovereignty is an eternal attribute then a change would be necessitated given that creation hasn't existed eternally.

I read the full article hurriedly and found much with which I disagree. You say:

Sovereignty means “complete rule or dominion over creation.”

So why should I accept your definition. I do not believe you cannot separate the Omnipotence of God from the Sovereignty of God. Philosophy can never trump Scripture and Scripture states that God does not change. If He only became Sovereign after He created that would be a change.

I posted the following on the thread: I'm scratching my head on this one

Originally Posted by OldRegular
As I said above I believe in the Sovereignty of God, however, I believe that frequently people in discussing that Sovereignty or the Decrees of God go far beyond what Scripture reveals and certainly beyond understanding! Let God be God, if we could understand Him He would not be God. He graciously reveals to us what we need to know!

God through ehe Apostle Paul tells us:

Romans 11:33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!

It seems to me in reading {hurriedly} the full article that your problem as a Calvinist is that you were one of those I describe above. Now I believe you have swung too far in the opposite direction.

In discussing your point #4 you state:

I recall a wise elder from my home church challenging me on this point by asking, “Why do you believe God’s choice of you for no apparent reason is less boast worthy than his choice of me for being a weak beggar?” I honestly did not know what he meant at the time, but I do now.

I have always believed, at least since I was old enough to understand, that Salvation was a supernatural act of God. I did when He saved me and I still do. I will tell you that I was a weak beggar, and a weak beggar for months, even years before He saved me.

You further state:

At the time of that encounter I had not reached the pigsty of my life. I was young and arrogant. I had never really been broken by my sin and brought face to face with my depravity. I thought I understood forgiveness and grace but truthfully it was not until much later in my life that I would be brought to the end of my self. I used to think the idea that God chose to save me before I was born and done anything good or bad was humbling, but it is not near as humbling as the reality that God would chose to save me in the middle of my worse sin, my brokenness, my humiliation and my shame.

It was after God saved me that I really began to understand the affront of my sin to God; that even though I had not consider myself a gross sinner, in the eyes of God I was. Perhaps I came to understand that it was my sin that put jesus Christ on the Cross! But that was not all. In time I looked around me and saw many good people who went through life apparently unconscious of their need for God as well as many good people who seemed antagonist to the belief in God. I asked myself: Why, Why Me O God?

Why did God save me and seemingly pass over others? Perhaps my upbringing had a significant impact on my experience of Grace. I believe it did! But that did not provide a complete answer to my WHY! My WHY in time caused me to recall a Scripture my Dad used to quote to me:

Acts 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

That passage led me to a further study of Scripture and to believe, not Calvinism, but the Biblical Doctrines of Sovereign Election and Grace. I will repeat what I presented earlier:

As I said above I believe in the Sovereignty of God, however, I believe that frequently people in discussing that Sovereignty or the Decrees of God go far beyond what Scripture reveals and certainly beyond understanding! Let God be God, if we could understand Him He would not be God. He graciously reveals to us what we need to know

 

[kyredneck]

Jon,

Prior to creation the Godhead knew the fulness of love. The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit knew an eternal love. Mercy, (and wrath) on the other hand, were not yet demonstrated, which is what Romans 9 addresses.

This is a great distinction between monotheists, such a Muslims, and trinitarians, we have a God who already knew love and relationship without the need for creation. Love is His essence: God is love. The Muslim god does not have love as his essence, only power.

Brian

Good points, excellent post.

Would you consider the Jews as monothiests

Excellent question.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Good points, excellent post.



Excellent question.

Well they are NOT Trinitarians....and I find most of them either agnostics and Aethiests. Therefore is not their god really power?

 

[BobRyan]

The Doctrines of Grace, the Truths of TULIP demonstrate why those Truths are the Gospel of God's Grace ! The Truths set forth tenants as to why Salvation must be of Grace 100 % ! Why, Because man by nature is totally depraved, meaning no spiritual ability at all, liken unto a dead man or person, spiritually dead in sin, to the point that in order for a person to respond positively with Faith and Repentance, they must first be made alive from the dead, like as before Lazarus could obey the command of Christ to come forth Jn 11:43, it took a miracle of Christ's Power to facilitate it, he had to be resurrected from the dead to obey come forth ! Thats an example of why !

That is the story that Calvinism tells - but the Bible never describes it that way. It never says that the lost are first made into born-again saved saints in communion with God -- and "then" they receive Christ or "and then they accept the Gospel" or "and then they believe".

Read Romans 10 and Rev 3 for the sequence and you will not find Calvinism there - you will find the Arminian Gospel model instead.


Romans 10
“The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart”—that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, 9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

The very sequence Calvinism forbids - the Bible affirms!

Calvinism is often expressed as an exact negation of scripture.

God sovereignly chose - free will and conditional salvation, conditional forgiveness.


the Bible says "IF WE Confess our sins HE is faithful and just to Forgive" 1John 1:9


The Bible says "I STAND at the door and knock - IF anyone hears My voice AND OPENS the door - I will come in" Rev 3

It never says "and such would be salvation by works"

In Calvinism there is no such thing as "He came to HIS OWN and HIS OWN received Him not" John 1:11 no matter what the Bible says to the contrary because in Calvinism the way that the lost person is saved is that first "HE comes to His OWN" those whom He abitrarily selects out from among the lost - causes "His own" to be born again - regenerated - THEN compels them to accept the Gospel for they are already regenerate - already born-again already saved, already the New Creation old things passed away all things become new.

In that form of Calvinism - no such thing as "He came to HIS OWN and HIS OWN received Him not" John 1:11

The Holy Spirit sovereignly and supernaturally by infinite power and wisdom "Convicts the WORLD of sin and righteousness and judgment" John 16 not just the "few" of Matt 7

God sovereignly and supernaturally by infinite power and wisdom 'Draws ALL unto Him" John 12:32

Thus enabling the still-lost the yet-lost the undecided to turn to confess repent and receive Christ.

The very thing that some forms of Calvinism claim God is not able to do - apparently.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[savedbymercy]

That is the story that Calvinism tells - but the Bible never describes it that way. It never says that the lost are first made into born-again saved saints in communion with God -- and "then" they receive Christ or "and then they accept the Gospel" or "and then they believe".

Read Romans 10 and Rev 3 for the sequence and you will not find Calvinism there - you will find the Arminian Gospel model instead.


Romans 10
“The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart”—that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, 9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

The very sequence Calvinism forbids - the Bible affirms!

Calvinism is often expressed as an exact negation of scripture.

God sovereignly chose - free will and conditional salvation, conditional forgiveness.


the Bible says "IF WE Confess our sins HE is faithful and just to Forgive" 1John 1:9


The Bible says "I STAND at the door and knock - IF anyone hears My voice AND OPENS the door - I will come in" Rev 3

It never says "and such would be salvation by works"

In Calvinism there is no such thing as "He came to HIS OWN and HIS OWN received Him not" John 1:11 no matter what the Bible says to the contrary because in Calvinism the way that the lost person is saved is that first "HE comes to His OWN" those whom He abitrarily selects out from among the lost - causes "His own" to be born again - regenerated - THEN compels them to accept the Gospel for they are already regenerate - already born-again already saved, already the New Creation old things passed away all things become new.

In that form of Calvinism - no such thing as "He came to HIS OWN and HIS OWN received Him not" John 1:11

The Holy Spirit sovereignly and supernaturally by infinite power and wisdom "Convicts the WORLD of sin and righteousness and judgment" John 16 not just the "few" of Matt 7

God sovereignly and supernaturally by infinite power and wisdom 'Draws ALL unto Him" John 12:32

Thus enabling the still-lost the yet-lost the undecided to turn to confess repent and receive Christ.

The very thing that some forms of Calvinism claim God is not able to do - apparently.

in Christ,

Bob

That's the story the Gospel tells from the scriptures, and you pawn it off as Calvinism, won't help in the day of Judgment !

 

[BobRyan]

Except there is no Gospel statement that says that you must first be born again before you can repent or confess or receive Christ.

In fact we have Romans 10 telling us the "sequence" - that 'results in righteousness" and the sequence that "results in salvation" and it does not say 'first God causes the new birth.

In fact in Rev 3 the Christless person must choose to open the door, and actually open that door before Christ comes in.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

The other big indication that the arbitrary selection combined with irresistible grace idea does not work is that God's own stated lament does not work in that model.

================================================




[FONT=&quot]“He CAME to HIS OWN and [/FONT][FONT=&quot]His OWN received Him not[/FONT][FONT=&quot]” John 1[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Matt 23[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]37“Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]38“Behold, your house is being left to you desolate![/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Luke 7[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]28 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]When all the people and the tax collectors heard this, they acknowledged God’s justice, having been baptized with the baptism of John. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]29 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]But the Pharisees and the lawyers rejected God’s purpose for themselves, not having been baptized by John.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Is 5:4[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
What could have been done more to my vineyard, that I have not done in it? wherefore, when I looked that it should bring forth grapes, brought it forth wild grapes?[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Response: [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] Well the Calvinist would have an answer for God's question on that one. An answer contrived via “extreme inference” in places like Deut 5:29. Calvinism would inform the world – and God Himself of just what God did to cause the lamentable result that God is complaining about in t[FONT=&quot]he verse above[/FONT].

[FONT=&quot]I[FONT=&quot]n Calvinism i[/FONT][/FONT]f the result is wrong if it is to be lamented if the question [FONT=&quot]is to be asked "What more could have been done" w[FONT=&quot]ell [/FONT][/FONT]then Calvinism argues He [FONT=&quot]knows exactly what He failed to do [/FONT] - [FONT=&quot]in effect [/FONT] sabotaging His own plans - the cause of His own "lament" - or at the very least - being forgetful to "do the necessary" as the saying goes in India.[/FONT]

 

[savedbymercy]

Except there is no Gospel statement that says that you must first be born again before you can repent or confess or receive Christ.

In fact we have Romans 10 telling us the "sequence" - that 'results in righteousness" and the sequence that "results in salvation" and it does not say 'first God causes the new birth.

In fact in Rev 3 the Christless person must choose to open the door, and actually open that door before Christ comes in.

in Christ,

Bob

Those in the flesh cannot please God, nor obey Him Rom 8:7-8 ! And all who have not been born again are in the flesh !

 

[BobRyan]

Those in the flesh cannot please God, nor obey Him Rom 8:7-8 ! And all who have not been born again are in the flesh !

Romans 8:4-9 makes the case between the saved and the lost.

the lost are not able to obey the Law of God.

I never claim that the convicting and enabling that the Holy Spirit does for the lost - enables them to live a sinless life - or to obey the Law of God.

It merely enables them to "Choose" the Gospel, choose eternal life.

To "receive Christ".

And at that point -the miracle of the new birth happens and then as the saints of the Romans 8:4-9 instead of the lost of Romans 8:4-9 they are next enabled to actual obey the Law of God -- as Romans 8 ways when contrasting the saved with the lost.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[JonC]

Jon,

Prior to creation the Godhead knew the fulness of love. The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit knew an eternal love. Mercy, (and wrath) on the other hand, were not yet demonstrated, which is what Romans 9 addresses.

This is a great distinction between monotheists, such a Muslims, and trinitarians, we have a God who already knew love and relationship without the need for creation. Love is His essence: God is love. The Muslim god does not have love as his essence, only power.

Brian

I disagree to an extent. For example, I view foreknowledge as being descriptive of a relationship rather than mere pre-knowledge. In this sense, even prior to Creation God was sovereign (sovereignty over creation being that expression of God). "In the beginning God" implies such sovereignty as evidenced by God's work in Creation.

 

[JonC]

they must first be made alive from the dead,

Although I agree to an extent, this is an illustration some Calvinists have taken much too far (and their doctrine has suffered).

Thats an example of why !

And this is not an example of why. What you stated was a rejection of TUIP was equally rejecting the Gospel of God’s grace in Christ. This is simply not true, although it is rejecting the view of some and perhaps most Calvinists (leaving room for those Calvinists who hold to the “Five Points” as expressed at Dort). Even Arminians may hold the same level of grace as do Calvinists…although IMHO they do so in a manner inconsistent with their theology.
This:

I believe that the Truths of Tulip, what they represent, are nothing short of the proclaiming the Truths of the Gospel of God's Grace and Why !

if fine…no problems here at all.

I believe therefore to reject them is equally rejecting the Gospel of God's Grace in Christ !

This, however, is error in your belief system that you may want to address.

 

[The Archangel]

When you say "sovereign over evil" do you mean He commands it? ordains? or that He permits it?

God ordains or permits evil. But, really, it's more than "ordains" or "permits," but it's also much less than "commands."

There are several facts that scripture presents:

1. God is absolutely sovereign.

2. Man is entirely responsible for his actions.

3. God intends the evil that men do for His own purposes, yet He doesn't cause the evil that they do.

These things do create a tension, but to have a truly biblical theology, there must be a proper synthesis of these facts into one cogent theology. If a proper synthesis doesn't happen, it is likely one will fall into Pelagianism or Hyper-Calvinism, neither of which is at all acceptable.

The Archangel

 

[savedbymercy]

Romans 8:4-9 makes the case between the saved and the lost.

the lost are not able to obey the Law of God.

I never claim that the convicting and enabling that the Holy Spirit does for the lost - enables them to live a sinless life - or to obey the Law of God.

It merely enables them to "Choose" the Gospel, choose eternal life.

To "receive Christ".

And at that point -the miracle of the new birth happens and then as the saints of the Romans 8:4-9 instead of the lost of Romans 8:4-9 they are next enabled to actual obey the Law of God -- as Romans 8 ways when contrasting the saved with the lost.

in Christ,

Bob

Those in the flesh cannot please God. Faith pleases God Heb 11:6 and those in the flesh, not born again of the Spirit, cannot exercise Faith , because it pleases God !