savedbymercy
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The Gospel Paul preached is not hid to them that are saved, but to them that are lost 2 Cor 4:3-4 !
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The 5 Points that lead me out of Calvinism
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PreachTony
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The Gospel Paul preached is not hid to them that are saved, but to them that are lost 2 Cor 4:3-4 !
So, in your belief, were the people of Corinth who received the gospel saved before Paul got there?
That's the logical leap, based off your stated positions, as you say the gospel is hid to the lost, but Paul here says that these people were saved after receiving the gospel that he preached. Look at the order Paul lays out for them:
1. The gospel is preached
2. A person receives the gospel
3. The person is saved
That's the order Paul tells us about in that scripture. But according to your interpretation, as the gospel is permanently hidden to the lost, then salvation has to come before preaching, otherwise the person cannot understand the gospel.
savedbymercy
New Member
pt
Yes, those who believed, when he preached to them. Paul preached to the save, the Gospel of their Salvation Eph 1:13
13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
The Gospel is the word of Salvation to the saved ! Problem ?
If they were not saved, then the Gospel would have been hidden from them, because for the 1000th time, the Gospel is hid to them that are lost 2 Cor 4:3-4
3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
BTW, No Paul does not hide the Gospel to the Lost, the devil does, he is the one that has blinded their minds, it states that in the passage !
So, in your belief, were the people of Corinth who received the gospel saved before Paul got there?
Yes, those who believed, when he preached to them. Paul preached to the save, the Gospel of their Salvation Eph 1:13
13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
The Gospel is the word of Salvation to the saved ! Problem ?
If they were not saved, then the Gospel would have been hidden from them, because for the 1000th time, the Gospel is hid to them that are lost 2 Cor 4:3-4
3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
BTW, No Paul does not hide the Gospel to the Lost, the devil does, he is the one that has blinded their minds, it states that in the passage !
savedbymercy
New Member
pt
This is error. Christ saved them, by His Death, Burial and Resurrection. A Lost person, not born of God cannot hear the Word of God Spiritually Jn 8:47
47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.
Thats True, however what saved the Lost One ? Something he does or something Christ did for him or her ?
I say that what Christ done for a person saved them, and the Gospel informs them of the good news of it, now what say you ?
See, I read that as Paul saying that he preached the gospel to the people at Corinth, and they heard the word and received it, and that saved them. For a person to be saved they first have to be lost.
This is error. Christ saved them, by His Death, Burial and Resurrection. A Lost person, not born of God cannot hear the Word of God Spiritually Jn 8:47
47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.
For a person to be saved they first have to be lost.
Thats True, however what saved the Lost One ? Something he does or something Christ did for him or her ?
I say that what Christ done for a person saved them, and the Gospel informs them of the good news of it, now what say you ?
PreachTony
Active Member
Yes, those who believed, when he preached to them. Paul preached to the save, the Gospel of their Salvation Eph 1:13
13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
The Gospel is the word of Salvation to the saved ! Problem ?
If they were not saved, then the Gospel would have been hidden from them, because for the 1000th time, the Gospel is hid to them that are lost 2 Cor 4:3-4
3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
BTW, No Paul does not hide the Gospel to the Lost, the devil does, he is the one that has blinded their minds, it states that in the passage !
Okay, thank you for clarifying the fact that your theology is actually opposed to the established scriptures. Thank you for clarifying that Paul's statements about preaching being necessary prior to salvation were wrong. I'm glad to know that I was actually saved before I ever heard the gospel.
Ever notice how many vague, obscure, and arcane verses or passages are cited and claimed to clearly or explicitly teach Calvinism. Case in point, 2 Corinthians 4:3-4. Paul teaches the gospel is veiled to those who are perishing. Calvinists interpret this to mean the gospel is veiled to all men because all unsaved men are perishing. But another equally valid view is this refers to the first soil of Matthew 13, where indeed, the gospel is veiled, and just as clearly they, the first soil folks, are perishing.
Thus the verse does not address all lost folks, just the subset who have been blinded. Thus Paul, even if not everyone can understand due to spiritual blindness, continues to suffer for the sake of those of the lost who can hear, understand, believe and fully commit to Christ.
Thus the verse does not address all lost folks, just the subset who have been blinded. Thus Paul, even if not everyone can understand due to spiritual blindness, continues to suffer for the sake of those of the lost who can hear, understand, believe and fully commit to Christ.
savedbymercy
New Member
Ever notice how many vague, obscure, and arcane verses or passages are cited and claimed to clearly or explicitly teach Calvinism. Case in point, 2 Corinthians 4:3-4. Paul teaches the gospel is veiled to those who are perishing. Calvinists interpret this to mean the gospel is veiled to all men because all unsaved men are perishing. But another equally valid view is this refers to the first soil of Matthew 13, where indeed, the gospel is veiled, and just as clearly they, the first soil folks, are perishing.
Thus the verse does not address all lost folks, just the subset who have been blinded. Thus Paul, even if not everyone can understand due to spiritual blindness, continues to suffer for the sake of those of the lost who can hear, understand, believe and fully commit to Christ.
Yes, those who are Lost, doomed to perish ! The Gospel to them is hidden ! And its permanently hidden because they are permanently lost !
Thus the verse does not address all lost folks,
Yes it does, because all for whom Christ died for are saved. A Person Christ died for is reconciled to God while they are enemies/unbelievers Rom 5:10 !
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PreachTony
Active Member
Yes, those who are Lost, doomed to perish ! The Gospel to them is hidden ! And its permanently hidden because they are permanently lost !
Yes it does, because all for whom Christ died for are saved. A Person Christ died for is reconciled to God while they are enemies/unbelievers Rom 5:10 !
So are people born saved or does their salvation just kick in some day without them knowing it?
Ever notice how many vague, obscure, and arcane verses or passages are cited and claimed to clearly or explicitly teach Calvinism. Case in point, 2 Corinthians 4:3-4. Paul teaches the gospel is veiled to those who are perishing. Calvinists interpret this to mean the gospel is veiled to all men because all unsaved men are perishing. But another equally valid view is this refers to the first soil of Matthew 13, where indeed, the gospel is veiled, and just as clearly they, the first soil folks, are perishing.
Thus the verse does not address all lost folks, just the subset who have been blinded. Thus Paul, even if not everyone can understand due to spiritual blindness, continues to suffer for the sake of those of the lost who can hear, understand, believe and fully commit to Christ.
Biblical Calvinism would see that the Gospel message is given and intended by God to be shared with ALL sinners, and that the Lord will enable those to whom Jesus died on behalf of in order to get saved will be responding to it...
We share with all, in order that through the means of hearing the good news, some, those God intends to save, will be those receiving Jesus thru and by faith...
The issue is not that Calvinists believe they should share the gospel with those who are unable to understand and receive the gospel with joy.
Unbiblical Calvinism denies Jesus died for all men, that God desires all men to be saved, and that Jesus is the propitiation for the whole world.
2 Corinthians 4:3-4 teaches, even if not everyone can understand due to spiritual blindness, Paul continues to suffer for the sake of those of the lost, the second, third and fourth soils, who can hear, understand, believe and fully commit to Christ.
Unbiblical Calvinism denies Jesus died for all men, that God desires all men to be saved, and that Jesus is the propitiation for the whole world.
2 Corinthians 4:3-4 teaches, even if not everyone can understand due to spiritual blindness, Paul continues to suffer for the sake of those of the lost, the second, third and fourth soils, who can hear, understand, believe and fully commit to Christ.
savedbymercy
New Member
So are people born saved or does their salvation just kick in some day without them knowing it?
Yes, if Christ died for a person, they are born saved from the penalty of their sins, their sin debt before God has been paid because Christ died already for them. Do you believe that a person whom Christ died for is born into this world unforgiven by God for their sins Christ died for ? Yes or No !
savedbymercy
New Member
The issue is not that Calvinists believe they should share the gospel with those who are unable to understand and receive the gospel with joy.
Unbiblical Calvinism denies Jesus died for all men, that God desires all men to be saved, and that Jesus is the propitiation for the whole world.
2 Corinthians 4:3-4 teaches, even if not everyone can understand due to spiritual blindness, Paul continues to suffer for the sake of those of the lost, the second, third and fourth soils, who can hear, understand, believe and fully commit to Christ.
2 Cor 4:3-4 teaches that those who are in a Lost state, the Gospel is hid from them, and because the word hid is in the perfect tense, the hiding is permanent, which means their being lost is permanent, God has no good news for them of their salvation ! Why would God send a Lost Person the Good News of their Salvation when in reality they are Lost ?
PreachTony
Active Member
Yes, if Christ died for a person, they are born saved from the penalty of their sins, their sin debt before God has been paid because Christ died already for them. Do you believe that a person whom Christ died for is born into this world unforgiven by God for their sins Christ died for ? Yes or No !
You keep asking me, in essence, to condone your erroneous view. :BangHead: I do not hold to your brand of Calvinism (or are we truly now into hyper-Calvinism?) (Or, to quote Spaceballs, have we blown by that into Ludicrous-Calvinism?)
I do not believe anyone is born saved or lost. Without the ability to understand the law, there can be no sin imputed to a person. Babies, therefore, cannot possibly be pre-damned, as your theology seems to state, because babies lack both the ability to understand the law and the ability to repent.
We know from scripture that with the heart man believes unto righteousness and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Tell me, at what point did one of these pre-saved people make any sort of confession unto salvation?
savedbymercy
New Member
pt
You are backed up into a corner and you scared to answer ! Yes or No, or consider this debate over with ! And to make it clear on what the Yes or No answer is for, its this specific question:
You keep asking me, in essence, to condone your erroneous view. I do not hold to your brand of Calvinism (or are we truly now into hyper-Calvinism?) (Or, to quote Spaceballs, have we blown by that into Ludicrous-Calvinism?)
You are backed up into a corner and you scared to answer ! Yes or No, or consider this debate over with ! And to make it clear on what the Yes or No answer is for, its this specific question:
Yes, if Christ died for a person, they are born saved from the penalty of their sins, their sin debt before God has been paid because Christ died already for them. Do you believe that a person whom Christ died for is born into this world unforgiven by God for their sins Christ died for ? Yes or No !
PreachTony
Active Member
You are backed up into a corner and you scared to answer ! Yes or No, or consider this debate over with ! And to make it clear on what the Yes or No answer is for, its this specific question:
Nice tactic, savedbymercy. You come out spouting a theology that is directly opposed to scriptural evidence and years upon years of scripturally-founded tradition, you rattle off verses, skipping over certain words and claiming those verse fit only your ill-conceived definition, and then you have the nerve to claim the upper-hand in a discussion and to actually say someone failing to answer your question, which is skewed in its wording to begin with, means the discussion is over.
Your question is akin to asking someone "Yes or No: Do you still beat your children?" or "Yes or no: have you told your wife that you're cheating on her?" You've worded your question so that it forces any answer to either align with your point of view or to take an opposing stance to your point of view.
And here's the kicker: I did answer you. I answered you here:
http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=97576
I believe Jesus both CAN and WILL save all who call on His name, in accordance with further scriptures like Romans 10:
Romans 10:13-15 said:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
If, according to your theology, the people who hear the gospel are ALREADY saved, then what is the purpose of Paul saying "WHOSOEVER shall call upon the name of the Lord SHALL be saved?"
I did not give you a YES or NO answer, because I am not going to give in to your poorly worded question.
savedbymercy
New Member
pt
That figures, you are scared to because it will manifest your real belief about the Death of Christ and what it actually accomplished for them He died for, its over !
I did not give you a YES or NO answer, because I am not going to give in to your poorly worded question.
That figures, you are scared to because it will manifest your real belief about the Death of Christ and what it actually accomplished for them He died for, its over !
You keep asking me, in essence, to condone your erroneous view. :BangHead: I do not hold to your brand of Calvinism (or are we truly now into hyper-Calvinism?) (Or, to quote Spaceballs, have we blown by that into Ludicrous-Calvinism?)
I do not believe anyone is born saved or lost. Without the ability to understand the law, there can be no sin imputed to a person. Babies, therefore, cannot possibly be pre-damned, as your theology seems to state, because babies lack both the ability to understand the law and the ability to repent.
We know from scripture that with the heart man believes unto righteousness and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Tell me, at what point did one of these pre-saved people make any sort of confession unto salvation?
ALL of us were born into the sin nature state of sinning adam though, so we stand already found guilty before God!
pt
That figures, you are scared to because it will manifest your real belief about the Death of Christ and what it actually accomplished for them He died for, its over !
Can you point out ANY NT verse that supports a sinner is right with God apart from placing faith in Jesus Christ though?
Or that somehow the elect were all born NOT with a sin nature then?
2 Cor 4:3-4 teaches that those who are in a Lost state, the Gospel is hid from them, and because the word hid is in the perfect tense, the hiding is permanent, which means their being lost is permanent, God has no good news for them of their salvation ! Why would God send a Lost Person the Good News of their Salvation when in reality they are Lost ?
The issue is not that it is permanently hid form some, the issue is that it is not hid to all lost people, i.e. the second, third and fourth soils of Matthew 13.
Note that the first soil did not start out unable to understand, they lost their spiritual ability. The first soil is like the Calvinist who is blind to any argument that differs from Arminianism.
Recall the teaching where we are not supposed to uproot the tares, but continue to teach? This passage (2 Corinthians 4:3-4) teaches we are teach the lost, even if some can no longer grasp spiritual milk, for the sake of the rest. Yes, I know that is a radically different view of the passage than you have been taught.
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