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The Abomination of Usury and Interest, and the Slavery of Debt

Alcott

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Are Christians expected to follow the Mosaic law prescribed to the nation of Israel?

Yes, because the Law of God pertains to the entire world

For as many as are of the works of the Law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not abide by all things written in the book of the law, to perform them.” Now that no one is justified by the Law before God is evident; for, “The righteous man shall live by faith.” However, the Law is not of faith; on the contrary, “He who practices them shall live by them.” Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us—for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree”— in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we would receive the promise of the Spirit through faith [Galatians 3:10-14].
 
Are Christians expected to follow the Mosaic law prescribed to the nation of Israel?



For as many as are of the works of the Law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not abide by all things written in the book of the law, to perform them.” Now that no one is justified by the Law before God is evident; for, “The righteous man shall live by faith.” However, the Law is not of faith; on the contrary, “He who practices them shall live by them.” Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us—for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree”— in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we would receive the promise of the Spirit through faith [Galatians 3:10-14].

To no longer be under Law is only possible by being under Spirit, which happens at the baptism of the holy spirit. But even those who are baptized with the holy spirit, uphold Law, for it is written, "I will put my spirit in you and CAUSE you to obey my statutes...", hence why, "he who is born of God cannot sin", for it is impossible to ever sin again upon receiving the spirit of God. But until you attain the gift of the Spirit, if you do not stop breaking the Law, or think that you do not need to, you will never receive the Spirit.
 

Reynolds

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I would rephrase that as "Legality and morality are not necessarily the same thing
I was talking about the terms and not their application. Yes, If we are discussing application then "necessarily" would definitely be needed.
 

Reynolds

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The thing is, it was much easier to buy without borrowing back then, because the prices of everything have shot up so high, now.

I always used to wonder how Chrstians (who defended capitalism, some even saying it was God's system) squared away with the scriptures against “usury”. I not too long ago saw a rationale somewhere, and I forgot what exactlx what it was, but I think it was a point covered here, like maybe the whole corporations vs. “people” thing.
Inflation adjusted, things actually cost more then than they do now.
 
Something I was thinking about today as my daughter and I were talking about her student loans and how she is going to try to get through her 4th year of grad school without taking loans. If we are not to borrow money for school, that would leave some of the more expensive careers only to those who have money. Those who don't and struggle will not be able to become doctors or lawyers or, as in the case of my daughter, audiologists. Now I'm not talking about funding a ton of money to get a useless degree but my daughter will be able to make good money right off of graduation and will be able to pay back those loans quickly. If she had to save up the money first, she would not have been able to do so (and she is going to CUNY - City University of NY - where the entire doctorate will cost her under $40,000, although she did borrow for additional living expenses since she was not able to work enough to be able to pay for her apartment/commuting costs). Student loans are low interest and if you have a good plan to pay them off in a matter of a few years, I don't see that it is a poor decision and instead, it is more like an investment.
This (unafforablly-high college tuition costs) used to not be a problem, back before loans were forced upon us (a cure looking for a problem), but now it is an "aged old" problem - faced by one and all (except, as you suggest, the very rich).

However, even as high as college is anymore, I would not worry that your daughter would "leave some of the more expensive careers only to those who have money" if she were to go to a regular college. In fact, you can get just as good an education, but at far less of a cost, at a state university, as compared to an "Ivy League" school. Moreover, should she go to Community College her first two (2) years, should could save a bundle more! The interest may be a bit lower, but the garnishment powers are incredibly-high, the initial principal costs is high (due also to inflation as well as Predatory lending), and some even face unrealistic and Usurious late fees.

Perhaps, I misread your one comment above, where you said: "If we are not to borrow money for school, that would leave some of the more expensive careers only to those who have money. Those who don't and struggle will not be able to become doctors or lawyers or, as in the case of my daughter, audiologists."

At first, I thought that you meant you felt things were bad if she didn't go to a top-notch school, but now I think you are saying things are bad if she can't take out some loans to go to college.

If I misunderstood you, my apologies, Ann. Anyhow, if you meant the former, I would encourage you to not fret about regular state colleges. But, if (as it now seems, upon a 2nd reading) you mean that you meant the latter, then I would say "damned if you do (take out loans, and go waaay in debt) and damned if you don't (take out loans, and can't get an education to do anything other than a fast food job).

Back when we were kids, college was affordable, but then again, America was honest back then, and you could leave your front door unlocked and not have to worry about things; however, we are in the End Times - the Last Days -- the Last Times -- and the End of Days. LOL... :( May we all call upon Jesus for both eternal as well as temporal assistance with the true faith that He is able.
 
Yes, because the Law of God pertains to the entire world,

Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. (Romans 3:19 [NIV])

Not just the Israelites, hence why even before the Law was given to Moses, the commands of God were already known beforehand even from the times of Abraham,

Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.
(Genesis 26:5 [KJV])
What you say has merit. But, if this is so, then why did Paul and Peter eventually come to the agreement that the law was no longer binding, in the Scriptures that I quoted above.

I honestly don't know: The law has a purpose, but so does grace, and on this point I admit that I am confused, as both sides have valid points, and by that, I mean valid Scriptures to back up their arguments & claims.
 
But where did the interest come from? Where and how was it generated?
My guess would be that Interest was a counterbalance or a correction factor for Inflation, with the intent and goal to be that the lender get back the amount of money that had the same "buying power" as it had when lent. But I will go out on a limb, here, & guess that things went off-rail when people (with our sinful nature) went overboard, and used excessive force - MORE than was necessary for legitimate (financial) self-defense. Does this seem tenable?
 
Inflation adjusted, things actually cost more then than they do now.
Oh, really? With all due respect, Reynolds, since college was either free -- or very close to it, but is now **very** unaffordable, then facts argue against you. PROOF:

“Was college once free in United States, as Bernie Sanders says?,” PolitiFact, RATED “Mostly True” - By Amy Sherman on Tuesday, February 9th, 2016 at 4:00 p.m.http://www.PolitiFact.com/florida/statements/2016/feb/09/bernie-s/was-college-once-free-united-states-and-it-oversea

Now, I will add that while college has outpaced inflation much more than most (or all) other things, nonetheless, I believe that most things *do* cost more, even adjusted for inflation. This means that the wages have less purchasing power, and the decreased purchasing power of the middle-class & poor helps only the super-rich. This action (which I am alleging) is fulfilled in the following passages in the Old Testament - foreshadowing the evil end-times spoken of by James -- and fulfilled in Revelation, chapter 6, verse 6, which speaks of inflation so bad that a whole day's food ration would be costing a whole days' wages, implying inflation and/or some other disaster(s), such as contaminated food, famine, governmental oppression, and/or war:

Proverbs 18:23 (NIV)
23 The poor plead for mercy, but the rich answer harshly.

Ecclesiastes 5:13 (NASB)
13 There is a grievous evil which I have seen under the sun: riches being [a]hoarded by their owner to his hurt. {{Footnotes: [a.]Ecclesiastes 5:13 Literally: "guarded"}}

James 5:1-6 (ESV) [Warning to the Rich]
1 Come now, you rich, weep and howl for the miseries that are coming upon you. 2 Your riches have rotted and your garments are moth-eaten. 3 Your gold and silver have corroded, and their corrosion will be evidence against you and will eat your flesh like fire. You have laid up treasure in the last days. 4 Behold, the wages of the laborers who mowed your fields, which you kept back by fraud, are crying out against you, and the cries of the harvesters have reached the ears of the Lord of hosts. 5 You have lived on the earth in luxury and in self-indulgence. You have fattened your hearts in a day of slaughter. 6 You have condemned and murdered the righteous person. He does not resist you.

Revelation 6:6 (AMP)
6 And I heard something like a voice in the midst of the four living creatures saying, “A quart of wheat for a denarius (a day’s wages), and three quarts of barley for a denarius; and do not [a]damage the oil and the wine.” {{Footnotes: [a.] Revelation 6:6 This may be a warning to be very careful handling olive oil and wine, which ordinarily are basic commodities, because famine will make them very expensive. The vision indicates that famine and inflation will take such a toll that a laborer will earn only enough to feed himself with wheat, or to provide barley for a small family. He will have almost nothing left for clothing, shelter, and incidentals.}}

Proverbs 24 (KJV)
11 If thou forbear to deliver them that are drawn unto death, and those that are ready to be slain;
12 If thou sayest, Behold, we knew it not; doth not he that pondereth the heart consider it? and he that keepeth thy soul, doth not he know it? and shall not he render to every man according to his works?

Proverbs 31 (NIV)
8 "Speak up for those who cannot speak for themselves, for the rights of all who are destitute.
9 Speak up and judge fairly; defend the rights of the poor and needy."
Epilogue: The Wife of Noble Character
 

annsni

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However, even as high as college is anymore, I would not worry that your daughter would "leave some of the more expensive careers only to those who have money" if she were to go to a regular college. In fact, you can get just as good an education, but at far less of a cost, at a state university, as compared to an "Ivy League" school.

My daughter was blessed in being a good student and she was able to go to a local private college for only $5,000 a year and then she went to a city school (part of the state system) for her doctorate and in the end, she will have only spent $35,000 for her doctorate (4 years). Not too shabby, especially knowing that audiologists have a pretty high starting pay and continue to grow in their ability to earn as they continue to practice. I have no fear that she will be able to pay off the student loans she has within just a few years.

Perhaps, I misread your one comment above, where you said: "If we are not to borrow money for school, that would leave some of the more expensive careers only to those who have money. Those who don't and struggle will not be able to become doctors or lawyers or, as in the case of my daughter, audiologists."

At first, I thought that you meant you felt things were bad if she didn't go to a top-notch school, but now I think you are saying things are bad if she can't take out some loans to go to college.

If I misunderstood you, my apologies, Ann. Anyhow, if you meant the former, I would encourage you to not fret about regular state colleges. But, if (as it now seems, upon a 2nd reading) you mean that you meant the latter, then I would say "damned if you do (take out loans, and go waaay in debt) and damned if you don't (take out loans, and can't get an education to do anything other than a fast food job).

Yep - it was the latter. If loans are a sin, then it would mean that a regular Christian kid couldn't go into the fields that require more schooling because they just couldn't afford it. So my daughter went to 8 years of school after high school and had she not had loans, there is no way she would have been able to go into the field that she did. An Au.D. is not a degree you can grab one class at a time as you are working full time. She DID work as she was in school but it was a part time job at the grocery store (1 or two days a week) that gave her enough money to buy a train ticket and a little bit of food once in a while. After 8.5 years, she JUST quit that job this week because her residency starts up Wednesday and she will be working 45 hours a week plus commuting 2 hours each way into Brooklyn from Long Island. She is so blessed in that she is the highest paid resident in her program and she will be making a bit more than she did at the grocery store so she is looking to really smack down some of her loans this year and not take any more. :) She's got a good head on her shoulders and she's frugal....although she just took my credit card to go shopping at Macys and I about fainted at what she bought. LOL But it is work clothes that are VERY needed and she shopped the clearance rack so I'm OK with it - and she will pay me back in a few minutes.

Back when we were kids, college was affordable, but then again, America was honest back then, and you could leave your front door unlocked and not have to worry about things; however, we are in the End Times - the Last Days -- the Last Times -- and the End of Days. LOL... :( May we all call upon Jesus for both eternal as well as temporal assistance with the true faith that He is able.

I don't know. I graduated from high school in 1983 and I had to take loans because my family couldn't afford the state school I went to. It wasn't cheap back then either.
 

Earth Wind and Fire

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Ann, tell her to look to going to school in Germany......see if she is making the grade, they will pay her edu in total......even up to a doctorate. They will even teach he German before she goes.
 

Reformed

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What you say has merit. But, if this is so, then why did Paul and Peter eventually come to the agreement that the law was no longer binding, in the Scriptures that I quoted above.

I honestly don't know: The law has a purpose, but so does grace, and on this point I admit that I am confused, as both sides have valid points, and by that, I mean valid Scriptures to back up their arguments & claims.

Gordon, the Law is our tutor, pointing us towards Christ (Gal. 3:24). However, the Law cannot save because it is not of faith:

Gal. 3:12 However, the Law is not of faith; on the contrary, "He who practices them shall live by them."

Paul is saying that the person who uses the Law as their means of righteousness must live [keep] the Law. That is a problem because the Bible tell us, "all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" (Rom. 3:23).

There are three aspects of the Law:

1. Ceremonial
2. Judicial
3. Moral

The ceremonial aspect of the Law covered all the rituals that the nation of Israel had to perform.

The judicial aspect covered things like civil and criminal law in the covenant community.

The moral aspect of the law is the one that survives to this day. The moral law of God covers the knowledge of right and wrong, good and evil. It is this part of the law, codified in the ten commandments, that condemns us, because we are unable to keep it. It can never justify us, although it plays a key role in pointing us to the perfect law keeper, Jesus Christ. Are you familiar with the Greek mythological character, Sisyphus? Sisyphus personified the narcissist. As punishment for his lack of moral rectitude, he was forced to an eternity of rolling an immense boulder up a hill only to watch it fall back down again, and then repeating the action ad infinitum, ad nauseaum. That is what it is like to live by the law. It is something that no one can complete, save the Christ!
 

annsni

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Ann, tell her to look to going to school in Germany......see if she is making the grade, they will pay her edu in total......even up to a doctorate. They will even teach he German before she goes.

Too late! She is done with year three and she begins her residency in 2 days. :) She will be working in Brooklyn at Liberty Hearing Centers and SUNY Downstate Hospital. She still has to pay tuition but she will be making a bit more in her "stipend".
 

MennoSota

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The Federal government has their mitts elbow deep in nearly every school in America. Like health care facilities that are wedded to Medicare, colleges have artificially increased rates in order to garner more federal funding. It's a never ending game of increased costs that will, sooner than later, bankrupt our entire government system. At present we just keep generating more and more debt that we cannot pay back. We will eventually be called to account.
 

annsni

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OK but you have more than one daughter right?

Yep. One is done with her undergrad and is looking for a job again teaching art. This one has one more year for her residency then she is DONE with school FOREVER!!! Then I have a boy who is a junior in high school and so he's next up to the college game and finally a freshman in high school who looks to be following her sister's footsteps in art - although more practical art than teaching. :) We are encouraging state school (looks like my son might do SUNY Farmingdale for mechanical engineering) and if I can get my youngest to get her act together, she could go to school for free for art. :)
 

CertainSound

New Member
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I believe the OP and the essay it refers to has some faulty exegesis. Jesus clearly calls the servant that didn't at least get interest "wicked". To be a leander but never a borrower is not being consistent. Being wise about borrowing is good stewardship. To lend without expecting interest is the same as Jesus condemned and also gives no motivation for loan repayment. Many who take the position (followers of Gothard were big on this) that you should never borrow because "a borrower is servant to the lender" over look the fact that were are supposed to be servants (hey if they take things out of context I can too).. The point about having to serve a lender is simply stating that the loan will be another thing you have to be responsible about.
You have to live some where. If you don't borrow money to buy a house you will be paying more to rent one. Rent is notoriously higher than a mortgage payment. With a mortgage you are putting money into your own estate with the principle portion of your payment and the increase in value of the house due to appreciation. Where as with rent it is a total loss of the rent money and missed opportunity to see an appreciation of your investment.
 

gabriel smit

New Member
Obviously few people could ever buy a house without putting themselves in debt. Do you think it's wrong to collect interest, as on a CD or simple savings account? The circumstance of prohibition against lending to "my people" at interest made a lot of Jews wealthy over the centuries. But today, is there any difference between institutions of lending as compared with individuals borrowing and lending?
God's directives were given to His people; the Jewish people who became rich through the ages were not His people but those of which God spoke in Acts 2:36 "Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ."
 

Revmitchell

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Debt is not a sin, but it is not a good thing either. We grow quite comfortable with a 30 year mortgage and its not necessary. Getting a new care by going into payments for five years is also not necessary. Any debt we get into should be worked to pay off as soon as possible.
 

Reynolds

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Oh, really? With all due respect, Reynolds, since college was either free -- or very close to it, but is now **very** unaffordable, then facts argue against you. PROOF:

“Was college once free in United States, as Bernie Sanders says?,” PolitiFact, RATED “Mostly True” - By Amy Sherman on Tuesday, February 9th, 2016 at 4:00 p.m.http://www.PolitiFact.com/florida/statements/2016/feb/09/bernie-s/was-college-once-free-united-states-and-it-oversea

Now, I will add that while college has outpaced inflation much more than most (or all) other things, nonetheless, I believe that most things *do* cost more, even adjusted for inflation. This means that the wages have less purchasing power, and the decreased purchasing power of the middle-class & poor helps only the super-rich. This action (which I am alleging) is fulfilled in the following passages in the Old Testament - foreshadowing the evil end-times spoken of by James -- and fulfilled in Revelation, chapter 6, verse 6, which speaks of inflation so bad that a whole day's food ration would be costing a whole days' wages, implying inflation and/or some other disaster(s), such as contaminated food, famine, governmental oppression, and/or war:

Proverbs 18:23 (NIV)
23 The poor plead for mercy, but the rich answer harshly.

Ecclesiastes 5:13 (NASB)
13 There is a grievous evil which I have seen under the sun: riches being [a]hoarded by their owner to his hurt. {{Footnotes: [a.]Ecclesiastes 5:13 Literally: "guarded"}}

James 5:1-6 (ESV) [Warning to the Rich]
1 Come now, you rich, weep and howl for the miseries that are coming upon you. 2 Your riches have rotted and your garments are moth-eaten. 3 Your gold and silver have corroded, and their corrosion will be evidence against you and will eat your flesh like fire. You have laid up treasure in the last days. 4 Behold, the wages of the laborers who mowed your fields, which you kept back by fraud, are crying out against you, and the cries of the harvesters have reached the ears of the Lord of hosts. 5 You have lived on the earth in luxury and in self-indulgence. You have fattened your hearts in a day of slaughter. 6 You have condemned and murdered the righteous person. He does not resist you.

Revelation 6:6 (AMP)
6 And I heard something like a voice in the midst of the four living creatures saying, “A quart of wheat for a denarius (a day’s wages), and three quarts of barley for a denarius; and do not [a]damage the oil and the wine.” {{Footnotes: [a.] Revelation 6:6 This may be a warning to be very careful handling olive oil and wine, which ordinarily are basic commodities, because famine will make them very expensive. The vision indicates that famine and inflation will take such a toll that a laborer will earn only enough to feed himself with wheat, or to provide barley for a small family. He will have almost nothing left for clothing, shelter, and incidentals.}}

Proverbs 24 (KJV)
11 If thou forbear to deliver them that are drawn unto death, and those that are ready to be slain;
12 If thou sayest, Behold, we knew it not; doth not he that pondereth the heart consider it? and he that keepeth thy soul, doth not he know it? and shall not he render to every man according to his works?

Proverbs 31 (NIV)
8 "Speak up for those who cannot speak for themselves, for the rights of all who are destitute.
9 Speak up and judge fairly; defend the rights of the poor and needy."
Epilogue: The Wife of Noble Character
Yes, really. In the specific instance to which I refer anyway. You had a huge disparity between industrialized and agrarian. My grandparents farmed. I remember my grandmother told me that one year their net income was $1.15 per day of you based it in a 5 day work week. $300 a year. Making $300 a year, they owned a house.
 

Salty

20,000 Posts Club
Administrator
...Making $300 a year, they owned a house.
and how would their house compare with one builit in 2017

Did it have Central Heat, AC
Did it have dishwasher, ect
How many bathrooms?
How many kids / how many bedrooms.
ect...

What I am trying to say - is that the Standard of living has greatly increased,
and that is one reason why houses cost so much more.[/QUOTE]
 
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