The Apostasy

[Ed Edwards]

Carlaimpinge: "WE ARE in the last days of 2 Tim.4."

Amen, Brother Carlaimpinge -- Preach it!
We have been in the last days since the
day of Pentacost 33AD (see Acts 2:17).
I also call these last days the Gentile Age,
the age of Grace, the Church age, etc.

Carlaimpinge: "The events of Rev.6 unto the fourth seal
occur unto the midst of the week."

This is your opinion, you have no proof text to support it.
Even if you had a prooftext to support it, it would still
be your opinion. So don't get on case that i also have
an opinion. My belief is that the first half of the
week is the events through the 7th trumpet.
The seals and the trumpets are tribulation lite
and wrath light and
are the first half of the week. The bowls are
tribulation heavy and wrath heavy and happen the second
half of the week.

Carlaimpinge: "That day (according to Paul) is the day of Christ
which concerns our gathering CONNECTED to the revelation
at the MIDST OF THE WEEK. (2 Thess.2:1-3)"

You have been totally incapable of showing that this is:
1. true
2. said in 2 Thess 2:1-3.
The revelation of the antichrist is at the first of the
week when he confirms a covenent between Yisrael and
the persecuters of Yisrael bringing peace to Yisrael.
The Jews are looking for a Messiah who will bring peace
to Yisrael. They will accept antichrist only if he brings
peace. So the covenent is a peace treaty. BTW, in 1993
President Cliniton signed a 7-year peace treaty with
Yisrael and the Palestine authority. All the antichrist
needs to do is get out that old treaty and get all the
Arab nations of sign up to it.
The Day of Christ/Day of the Lord here is the Second
COming of Jesus to earth in power and glory at the end
of the Tribualtion period/week. Sorry, nothing
in 2 Thess 2:1-3 about midst of the week. Now 2 Thess 2:4
is about the midst of the week as stated in Daniel 9:27.

The revelation of antichirst is a seperate event
from the AOD = abomination of desolation.

revelation of antichrist:
who - the man antichrist
When - beginning of the 70th week of Daniel
where - antichrist capital, probably Rome
how - with deception to non-believing Jews

AOD:
who - the Satan indwelt antichrist
when - middle of the 70th week of Daniel
where - Jerusalem
how - the were non-believing Jews will believe then
that Jesus is their Messiah, not the Antichrist.

 

[Ed Edwards]

IT is the testimony of most non-pretribs
that they used to be pretrib. I'll start
a poll to demonstrate that.

 

[carlaimpinge]

BACK TO THE SAME FALSE TEACHING WITHOUT PROOFTEXT. Just more "redundance" of falsehood.

Quote:

The revelation of the antichrist is at the first of the
week when he confirms a covenent between Yisrael and
the persecuters of Yisrael bringing peace to Yisrael.

Unquote.

The man can't prooftext that teaching by ANY VERSE.

Quote:

The revelation of antichirst is a seperate event
from the AOD = abomination of desolation.

Unquote.

Very true. HE IS RAISED FROM THE DEAD BEFORE THE IMAGE IS MADE. That is "why" the image is made. Revelation BEFORE abomination.

AGAIN, which puts it as the MIDST OF THE WEEK.

Quote:

Sorry, nothing
in 2 Thess 2:1-3 about midst of the week. Now 2 Thess 2:4
is about the midst of the week as stated in Daniel 9:27.

Unquote.

Sure it is. GATHERING CONNECTED TO REVELATION.

2 Thessalonians 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

2 Thessalonians 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Revealed, of following verses ALL RELATE to verse 3.)

2 Thessalonians 2:6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

2 Thessalonians 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

2 Thessalonians 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

2 Thessalonians 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

You teach the revealing of verse 3 is DIFFERENT from the others DENYING the context, without ANY OTHER VERSE OF CORROBORATION which shows he is revealed at the BEGINNING of the week. Private interpretation.

 

[prophecynut]

Originally posted by IveyLeaguer:
There are about 13 or 14 different opinions that I know of - yours would be one more.

If my view is one more to you then it must be new to you. I have many views that would be new to you, I call it knowledge, information about his Word that are new truths added to the foundation set forth by Church prophets and teachers.

Apostasy is a revolt, a departure, an abandoning of a position once held. True apostasy has characterized the church almost from its inception, but Paul referred to a specific distinguishable apostasy that will come in the future.

The Holy Spirit or "Comforter" will never leave or forsake the believer, we are secure in Christ never to loose our salvation. Those who are in Christ's body will never fall away from the faith.
If it were possible then God would be made a lier.

Since this apostasy is in the context of the unbeliever it cannot refer to the Church, which will remain faithful to him. You cannot lose your faith or fall away from it, you will remain in him until you are glorified at the rapture. When these truths are considered, the Church cannot be involved in this apostasy.

This apostasy will consist of people (unbelievers) turning from God's truth to worship the Antichrist, who will set himself up in God's temple and claim to be God (V. 4). If this is so, then the judgmennts of the day of the Lord will occur in the second half of the seven-year period preceding Christ's second coming.

The AC "will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped" (v.4) This rebellion against anything that is considered Godly is evident today in those who do not know the true God. They once held to a Godly standard, but are ever increasingly abandoning a belief in God to a denial of and opposition to "everything that is called God." This apostasy or falling away or rebellion will culminate in the appearance of the AC.

 

[HankD]

Brother Carl,

Would you please comment on these verses:

First the prophecy given by Jacob (Israel) to his sons, the progenitors of the 12 tribes:

Genesis 49:10 The sceptre shall not depart from
Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh come; and unto him shall the gathering of the people be.

Particularly the identity of Shiloh.
Presumably it is Jesus Christ.

The people?

Then the parable of the wheat and the tares given to the Apostles and disciples:

Matthew 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

Do you believe that the "gathering" of Genesis 49:10 and Matthew 13:30 are the same event. That is my present understanding.

Which brings this question to mind:
Why does Jesus say to gather "first" the tares?
My own answer would be because the gathering of the tares leaves them bound "in the field" while the gathering of the wheat is "into MY barn".

What/where is the "barn"? In Jesus day this was
a temporary garner where the crop was gathered into for protection from the elements and animals during the time of the harvest.

Luke 3:17 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and will gather the wheat into his garner; but the chaff he will burn with fire unquenchable.

This request is not a positional test but a sincere request of your point of view (if you are willing to answer, if not, I will understand).

HankD

 

[HankD]

Actually, anyone else of the Body of Christ who wants to hazard a public interpretation?

HankD

 

[carlaimpinge]

Bro. Hank,

Yes, Shiloh is Jesus Christ. Shilah concerns peace and rest, which is given through the Lord Jesus when he comes in the context. When Israel first came into the land, Shiloh was where the ark was stationed. (Joshua 18) It was typical of the FUTURE peace and rest AFTER getting the inheritance. (Deut.12, and see Heb.3-4, Psalm 132) It was typical of the rest, along with Solomon as the man of peace (1 Chron.22)which is typical of Jesus Christ and the millenial kingdom. (1 Kgs. 4)

The people of course is the seed of Jacob. It is the gathering of Israel AFTER Jesus Christ comes to earth. They are continually promised to be gathered throughout the OT. (See Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Deuteronomy, etc.)

The parables of Matt.13 are MYSTERIES of the kingdom of heaven which the Lord REVEALED. They are "new" things, along with old teachings.

No, the gatherings are different. One concerns saints which occurs after the tribulation (Matt.13, 24) BEFORE Armageddon, when the Lord comes back and PUNISHES his JEWISH enemies who would not have him to reign, while getting his others to take them BACK to heaven to attned a wedding (Matt.24-25, Luke 12, 19, John 10,14)

The other occurs AFTER Armageddon, when Israel is gathered according to OT prophecy, as found in Genesis. (Ez.37, Psalm 47, Isaiah 43, 54, Jer.31-32, etc.)

Luke 3 refers to the pouring out of the Spirit after the tribulation, WHEN believers are delivered, while the enemies are destroyed. (Joel 2)

Peter's quotation of Joel did not FULFIL the verse with the TIMING involved. He referenced it DUE TO THE MEN SPEAKING IN TONGUES BY THE SPIRIT.

We're kind of off topic from the apostasy aren't we?

In Christ Jesus,
Carl

 

[Ed Edwards]

Originally posted by carlaimpinge:
We're kind of off topic from the apostasy aren't we?

Just dealing with the details.
The apostasy mentioned in 2 Thessalonains 2:3
is the falling away of the true church
and the true saints from this earth,
falling away right into the arms of Jesus.
If you rotate your camera 180-degrees,
we will be rising into the sky to meet
Jesus in the air! This will occur
at the first moment of Daniel's 70th week.

-----------------------------------------

The New Testament Mysteries point to
the veracity of the pretrib rapture position.

1. Mysteries of the Kingdom of Heaven

Matthew 12:10-11 (nKJV):
10. And the disciples came and said to Him,
"Why do you speak to them in parables?"
11. He answered and said to them, "Because it
has been given to you to know THE MYSTERIES
OF THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN, but to them it has
not been given.

The parables of the Kingdom of Heaven are
given in Matthew 13:3-50 and in Mark 4:26-29

I believe the Mysteries of the Kingdom of Heaven
describe the Church Age. The Church Age
goes from Pentacost to Rapture/resurrection/transformation.
During that age the Holy Spirit moves among
humans convicting of sin, and calling humans
to salvation through Jesus, the Christ.
This period in HIS-story can also be called
"the age of the gentiles".

2. Mystery of Israel's blindness in the Church Age

Romans 11:25-26a (nKJV):
For I do not desire, brethren, that you
should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you
should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness
in part has happened to Israel until the
fullness of the Gentiles has come in.
26. And so all Israel will be saved,

I've had several interesting discussions
with Messianic Jews. They are thrilled at the
prospects that when the last possible gentile
(Hebrew: "goy") comes to accept Jesus, the Messiah,
as their personal savior -- then will Jesus
resurrect/rapture/transform the saved to that time.
Then will come the Tribulation, with the purpose
of Jesus finally winning the Jews unto Himself.


3. Mystery of the Rapture

1 Chrinthians 15:51a (NIV):
Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep,
but we will all be changed -- ...

1 Thessalonians 4:14,16

Titus 2:13 (nKJV):
looking for the blessed hope and
glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jeus
Christ

Of course, such a rapture must be pretrib
when 100s of millions of saints are still alive,
for after the tribulation there will only be a few
handfuls of living saints.


4. Mystery of His Will

Ephesians 1:9-12 (NIV)
And he made known to us the mystery of his will according
to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ,
10 to be put into effect when the times will have
reached their fulfillment -- to bring all things
in heaven and on earth together under one head,
even Christ.
11 In him we were also chosen, having
been predestined according to the plan of him who
works out everything in conformity with
the purpose of his will,
12 in order that we, who were the first to hope in
Christ, might be for the praise of his glory.

May God's will be done!

From Eternity past God has intended
to bring all things together in Christ.

This joining inclues the gentile church and
the race of Yisrael. At the pretribulation
rapture Jesus takes the gentile church out
of the world, and then uses the Tribulation
to bring Yisrael back to Him.


5. Mystery of Christ:
the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel

Ephesians 3:2-12 (NIV):

2 Surely you have heard about the administration
of God's grace that was given to me for you,
3 that is, the mystery made known to me by revelation,
as I have already written briefly.
4 In reading this, then, you will be able
to understand my insight into the mystery of Christ,
5 which was not made known to men in other generations
as it has now been revealed by the Spirit
to God's holy apostles and prophets.
6 This mystery is that through the gospel
the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel,
members together of one body, and sharers
together in the promise in Christ Jesus.
7 I became a servant of this gospel by the
gift of God's grace given me through the working
of his power.
8 Although I am less than the least of all God's
people, this grace was given me: to preach to
the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ,
9 and to make plain to everyone the administration
of this mystery, which for ages past was
kept hidden in God, who created all things.
10 His intent was that now, through the church,
the manifold wisdom of God should be made
known to the rulers and authorities in
the heavenly realms,
11 according to his eternal purpose
which he accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord.
12 In him and through faith in him
we may approach God with freedom and confidence.

This is interesting because both verse 5 and 9
define "mystery".

The gentile church and the race of Yisrael
are joint heirs of God's promise to Abraham.
At the pretribulation rapture Jesus takes the gentile church out
of the world, and then He uses the Tribulation
to bring Yisrael back to Him.

BTW, Ephesians 3:2 the word "administration"
in the NIV is rendered "dispensation"
in the KJV1769.


6. Mystery of Church the Bride of Christ

Ephesians 4:30b-33 (NIV):

for we are members of his body.
31 "For this reason a man will leave his father
and mother and be united to his wife,
and the two will become one flesh."
32 This is a profound mystery--but I
am talking about Christ and the church.
33 However, each one of you also must
love his wife as he loves himself,
and the wife must respect her husband

Revelation 19: (NIV):

Let us rejoice and be glad
and give him glory!
For the wedding of the Lamb has come,
and his bride has made herself ready.
8 Fine linen, bright and clean,
was given her to wear."
(Fine linen stands for the righteous acts of the saints.)

Does Jesus take his Bride out of the world
before the "wedding of the Lamb" (pretrib)
or after the "wedding of the Lamb" (postrib)?


7. Mystery of the Indwelling Christ in Believers

John 15:4 (NIV)
Remain in me, and I will remain in you.
No branch can bear fruit by itself;
it must remain in the vine.
Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me.

Galations 2:20 (NIV)
I have been crucified with Christ and I no
longer live, but Christ lives in me.
The life I live in the body, I live
by faith in the Son of God, who loved me
and gave himself for me.

Philippians 1:21 (NIV)
For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain.

Colossians 1:25-26 (NIV)
the mystery that has been kept hidden for ages
and generations, but is now disclosed
to the saints.
27 To them God has chosen to make known
among the Gentiles the glorious
riches of this mystery, which is
Christ in you, the hope of glory.

Woah! Christianity has the other mystery religions
beatten hands down! Christ who is God dwells
within each saint!

What glory is there in the Pretribulation Rapture?
ALL GLORY!

What glory is there in dragging into the Tribulation?


8. Mystery of God, Even Christ

Colossians 2:2b (nKJV):
attaining to all riches
of the full assurance of understanding, to the
knowledge of the mystery of God, both of
the Father and of Christ,

1 Chrinthians 2:7 (nKJV):
But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery,
the hidden wisdom which God ordained
before the ages for our glory.

Interesting, "before the ages". Well, then if
this wisdom of God was before the ages, it is
certainly before the Church Age.
And the infinite knowledge of God is incarnate
in Christ. And the infinite wisdome of God
which was incarnate in Christ is "for our glory".

How is it for our glory, we the saints of the Living
God, if have to traspe through the Tribulation
as some nay-sayers promote?


9. Mystery of Inquity/Lawlessness

This mystery deals with Satan's ongoing
master plan to bring forth the Antichrist
in the End Times, yet the outcome is clear.
Will Jesus let His Church be around when
the Antichrist is punished on the earth?

2 Thessalonians 2:7-8a (nKJV):
For the mystery of lawlessness is already at
work; only He who now restrains will do so
until He is taken out of the way.
And then the lawless one will be revealed, ... "

Interesting, this mystery is explained in the
pretribulation rapture book of the Bible:
2 Thessalonians. We repeat the timeline shown
in 2 Thessalonains that is clearly specified there:

[2]1. The Church Age (with it's tribulation)
2. Day of Christ:
-2a. falling away; our gathering together to Him;
--removal of the restrainer
-2b. the revelation of the man of sin
-2c. the period of deception; the Tribulation
-2d. the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ
-2e. the destruction of the man of sin[/2]

2 Thessalonians 3:2 (nKJV):
But the Lord is faithful, who will establish
you and guard you from the evil one.

And this is all summed up in one word:

'\o/' Maranatha! '\o/'


10. Mystery of Godliness

1 Timothy 3:16 (nKJV):
And without controversy great
is the mystery of Godliness:

God was manifested in the flesh,
Justified in the Spirit,
Seen by angels,
Preached among the Gentiles,
Believed on in the world,
Received up in glory.

And that is just what God had done up
to the time of the writing.
Later He will:

Rapture the Church, the Bride of Christ
Marry the Church in Heaven (Tribulation on earth)
Return to earth at the Second Advent
Destroy the Antichrist and bind Satan
Rule the earth on the Throne of David.


11. Mystery of the Seven Stars/Candlesticks

Revelation 1:20 (nKJV):
The mystery of the seven stars which you
saw in My right hand, and the seven golden
lampstands: The seven stars are the angels of
the seven churches, and the seven lampstands
which you saw are the seven churches.

Oh yes, Sweet Jesus! The 7-stars,
the 7-golden lampstands -- the Church age
in double completeness.
And when the church on earth is complete,
the Christ, Jesus, will rapture the church.
And the wedding supper of the Lamb will
take place in heaven as the Tribulation
takes place on earth.


12. Mystery, Babylon the Great:

This mystery forcasts the final
world apostate church of
the Tribulation after the Rapture.

Revelation 17:5 (nKJV), emphasis from the source:

And on her forehead a name was written:
MYSTERY,
BABYLON THE GREAT,
THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND OF THE
ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.


13. Mystery of God

This mystery announces the conclusion of God's
program to consummate history during the
the last days of the voice of the seventh angel".

All the mystery prophecies concerning the
Kingdom of Christ will be fulfilled,
relevant to Israel
and the world leading to the reign of the Messiah.

Revelation 10:7 (nKJV):
but in the days of the sounding of the seventh
angel, when he is about to sound, the mystery
of God would be finished, as He declared
to His servants the prophets.

 

[carlaimpinge]

Quote:

The apostasy mentioned in 2 Thessalonains 2:3
is the falling away of the true church
and the true saints from this earth,
falling away right into the arms of Jesus.
If you rotate your camera 180-degrees,
we will be rising into the sky to meet
Jesus in the air! This will occur
at the first moment of Daniel's 70th week.

Unquote.

2 Timothy 3:13 But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.

2 Timothy 3:14 But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;

2 Timothy 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

2 Timothy 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

The statement of teaching is against all references to the terms (fall away, falling away)in English, against the Greek word itself, against the context of the passages where they are found, against the usage of the term assoicated with the event itself (caught up),and WITHOUT corroboration from ANY OTHER SCRIPTURE VERSE. Mere distortion, fabrication of unscriptural and nonbiblical ideas (falling into the arms of Jesus), and corruption of the scriptures RULES this type of eisogesis.

The apostasy is GUARANTEED to be continued, and go into FULL BLOOM by the expositions of preweek rapturists, who can't PROOFTEXT their illusions, and offer nothing but confusion.

The "original" falsehood taught at Thessalonica was "the day of Christ is AT HAND". Paul associated two things with it.

The apostasy and REVELATION of the man of sin occurs in connection to it. That revelation is at the MIDST OF THE WEEK, according to EVERY VERSE which concerns the wording in the Thessalonian context COMPARED with the other scriptures. (Rev.12, 13, 17, Isaiah 14, Matt.24, Dan.8,9,11,12)

So much for the preweek rapturists.

 

[prophecynut]

Looking good there Carl

 

[HankD]

Thank you bro. Carl, especially for bringing back to mind "They are 'new' things, along with old teachings" concerning Matthew 13.

And also thanks Bro, Ed for your contribution, although for now I view "apostasy/apostacy" (Grk. apostasia) in the primary scriptural sense as a departure from a body of doctrine. See:

KJV Acts 21:21 And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs.

The word is also used in the LXX at:
Joshua 22:22 - "rebellion".
2 Chronicles 29:19 - "cast away in his rebellion".
Jeremiah 2:19 - "backslidings".

I do value and respect your views as well as Bro. Carl's.

We're kind of off topic from the apostasy aren't we?

"Gatering(s)" IMO,It's related - 2 Thessalonians 2.

HankD

 

[prophecynut]

To those who believe the apostasy or "falling away" are Christians abandoning the faith I give you Jude 24:

"To him who is able to keep you from falling and to present you before his glorious presence without fault and with great joy."

 

[HankD]

Judas started out as an "apostle" but later was found to be an "apostate".

Hank

 

[Ed Edwards]

Carlaimpinge: "So much for the preweek rapturists."

Verse Search Results (The King James Version (Authorized))
Search Error
Your search query for 'preweek' did not return any results.

Verse Search Results (The King James Version (Authorized))
Search Error
Your search query for 'rapturists' did not return any results.

By your own critera you are NOT allowed to speak of
"preweek rapturists" for neither of the terms are found
in the Scripture.

Carlimpinge: //The "original" falsehood taught at Thessalonica
was "the day of Christ is AT HAND".//

Amen, Brother -- Preach it!
Now figure out what it MEANS.
In the 21st century "is near" is use to
denote what "AT HAND" meant in the 18th century.

Ro 13:12 (KJV1769):
The night is nearly over, the day is at hand:
let us therefore cast off the works of darkness,
and let us put on the armour of light.

Romans 13:12 (HCSB):
The night is nearly over, and the daylight is near,
so let us discard the deeds of darkness and put on the armor of light."


Php 4:5 (KJV1769):
Let your moderation be known unto all men. The Lord is at hand.

Philippians 4:5 (HCSB):
Let your graciousness be known to everyone. The Lord is near


2Th 2:2 (KJV1769):
That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled,
neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us,
as that the day of Christ is at hand.

2 Thessalonians 2:2 (HCSB = The Holman Christian Standard Bible):
not to be easily upset in mind or troubled,
either by a spirit or by a message or by a letter as if from us,
alleging that the Day of the Lord has come.

The KJV1767 is in error here IN THE TWENTY-FIRST CENTURY.
In the 21st century "AT HAND" means nearby.
In the 18th century "AT HAND" means RIGHT HERE.

So, despite what the KJV1769 seems to say,
the Day of the Lord, the 70th week of Daniel, the Tribulation
Period, whatever you call it, IS AT HAND.
The pretrib (first of the week) rapture
was AT HAND when Paul Wrote 2 Thessalonains 2:2 in 62AD.
The pretrib rapture is AT HAND in 2004.
The pretrib rapture was AT HAND at all places inbetween.
The pretrib rapture will be AT HAND until Jesus comes to get us.

The teaching of 2 Thessalonians 2:2 is that until the pretribulation
rapture/resurrection happens, the Day of Christ (or Day of the Lord)
will not happen. Fortunately, in verse 3 here, the falling away
rapture is said to preceed the Day of the Lord.

As quoted: 2 Timothy 3:13 But evil men and seducers shall
wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.

As properly quoted:
2 Timothy 3:13 (KJV1769):
But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse,
deceiving, and being deceived.

This terminology describes HERESY not APOSTASY.

As quoted: 2 Timothy 3:14 But continue thou in the things
which thou hast learned and hast been assured of,
knowing of whom thou hast learned them;

As properly quoted:
2 Timothy 3:14 (KJV176):
But continue thou in the things
which thou hast learned and hast been assured of,
knowing of whom thou hast learned them;


this location

http://www.baptistboard.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php/topic/3/2634.html

shows that 84% of the respondants from this board
were taught the pretribulation (beginning of the week) rapture/resurreciton.
Almost half of those have continued in the things which they
learned and have assurance of.

 

[OldRegular]

Originally posted by HankD:
Judas started out as an "apostle" but later was found to be an "apostate".

Hank

Judas was never a "true believer"!

Matthew 26:24 The Son of man goeth as it is written of him: but woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born.

John 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

 

[Ed Edwards]

Originally posted by OldRegular:
Judas was never a "true believer"!

Agreed.
Judas commited heresy not apostasy.
Had he been saved, he would have
commited apostasy. He was not saved
so he commited heresy.

 

[HankD]

Judas was never a "true believer"!

I didn't say he was.

But he was called an apostle...

2 Now the names of the twelve apostles are these; The first, Simon, who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother; James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother;
3 Philip, and Bartholomew; Thomas, and Matthew the publican; James the son of Alphaeus, and Lebbaeus, whose surname was Thaddaeus;
4 Simon the Canaanite, and Judas Iscariot, who also betrayed him.
5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:

HankD

 

[carlaimpinge]

Folks, Have you caught on yet to the TYPICAL MANNER of preweek "serpentry"?

Willful DIVERSION, DISTORTION, DELUSION, and DECLARATION without prooftext.

The man knows quite well HE TEACHES a preweek rapture. (BEFORE DANIEL'S 70th WEEK, BEGINNING OF THE WEEK) It's written through all his posts.

The continual "conflicting" USE of multiple versions FROM OPPOSITE texts produce the CONFUSION due to different readings. That is another method of madness to distort.

The day of the Lord is not the day of Christ by Pauline teaching. (See 1 Thess.4-5 compared to 2 Thess.2) We ESCAPE the day of the Lord and are GATHERED on the day of Christ. One is BEFORE the other.

A new distortion is added now, by quoting TEXTS which deal with the Lord's EVERYDAY presence (Phil.4:5) and the PRACTICAL ILLUSTRATION of day/night relevant to our WORKS. Walk in the LIGHT, even though it is DARK. (Rom.13)

Pure subterfuge to DISTORT the day of Christ AS "both". The day of Christ IS NOT stated in either text.

The Lord is at hand (Phil.4) NOR the day is at hand (Rom.13) is the DAY OF CHRIST.

Paul DID NOT CONTRADICT himself! The day of Christ WAS NOT at hand in 2 Thess.2.

2 Thessalonians 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Watch the man CONTRADICT and BLASPHEME what Paul said.

Quote:

So, despite what the KJV1769 seems to say,
the Day of the Lord, the 70th week of Daniel, the Tribulation
Period, whatever you call it, IS AT HAND.

Unquote.

The man CAN'T PROOFTEXT that false teaching from any verses, expecially 2 Thess.2! Wild man wild.

Seems to say? No, no. IT SAYS, opposite of what you THINK AND TEACH! (See his next false statement)


Quote:

The pretrib (first of the week) rapture
was AT HAND when Paul Wrote 2 Thessalonains 2:2 in 62AD.
The pretrib rapture is AT HAND in 2004.
The pretrib rapture was AT HAND at all places inbetween.
The pretrib rapture will be AT HAND until Jesus comes to get us.

Unquote.

THE MAN CAN'T PRODUCE ANY PROOFTEXTS FOR A 7 YEAR TRIBULATION OR GATHERING BEFORE IT. Note AGAIN his contradicting blasphemy without any prooftext.

Quote:

The teaching of 2 Thessalonians 2:2 is that until the pretribulation
rapture/resurrection happens, the Day of Christ (or Day of the Lord)
will not happen. Fortunately, in verse 3 here, the falling away
rapture is said to preceed the Day of the Lord.

Unquote.

Note the false term, FALLING AWAY RAPTURE. (Good grief! What heresy AND apostasy!)

THE MAN REDUNDANTLY STATES the day of Christ is the same as the day of the Lord when one is an OT TERM referring to the Father, and the other is a NT term referring to the Son.

Again, the preweek rapturist HAS NOT produced verses, but INTERJECTED his DELUSION into them.

Quote:

this location

http://www.baptistboard.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php/topic/3/2634.html

shows that 84% of the respondants from this board
were taught the pretribulation (beginning of the week) rapture/resurreciton.
Almost half of those have continued in the things which they
learned and have assurance of.


Unquote.

That fact shows that BROAD is the way that leadeth to destruction AGAINST Pauline teaching. Paul DID NOT teach a gathering BEFORE the Daniel's 70th week by ANY PROOFTEXT.


2 Peter 3:15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;

2 Peter 3:16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

2 Peter 3:17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.

THERE'S THE FALL. It's "unbelief" of Pauline teaching! (False teaching)

Again, the preweek rapturists are OVERTURNED by the Holy Spirit.

[ December 18, 2004, 05:50 AM: Message edited by: carlaimpinge ]

 

[Ed Edwards]

Carlaimpinge: "Note the false term, FALLING AWAY RAPTURE. (Good grief! What heresy AND apostasy!)"

Verse Search Results (The King James Version (Authorized))
Search Error
Your search query for '"Good grief"' did not return any results.

This person uses a phrase not found in the Bible.
The term "falling away" is found in the KJV1769 at 2 Thess 2:3.
The term "rapture" is found in in the Latin Bible
at 1 Thess 4:17 and translated "caught up".

What is the difference between falling away and caught up?
NONE, except the orientation of Jesus'es head.
If Jesus'es head is pointed away from the earth, then
the person is caught up; if Jesus'es head is pointed toward
the earth, then the person is falling away. BTW, for those
of you who think the rapture will be in an instant for all
people, then one one side of the earth the falling away
will take place and on the opposide side of the earth the
caught up will take place. It is according to where you watch
at the time of the rapture/resurrection.

Jude 1:9-10 (KJV1769):
9 Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil
he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against
him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.
10 But these speak evil of those things which
they know not: but what they know naturally,
as brute beasts, in those things they corrupt themselves.

Things obviously not understood in this thread:
1. Various ways of looking at the same event
(180 degree turn of the camera)
2. inclusive versus exclusive start point
3. expanded exegesis by multiple Bible versions
4. poetic license
5. the change of meaning of english terms in the last 400 years
6. the difference between "apostasy" and "heresy"

To avoid excessive vexation of my spirit,
i'm boycotting reproducing the words
of Brother Carlaimpinge the rest of this year.
Maybe if he would find out how to use
a larger fount, his would would have more
meaning

 

[HankD]

Bother Carl, though my own leaning is toward the position you hold, IMO you are being overly harsh with Brother Ed concerning your different views on this matter.

In fact even if his view of what you call "a preweek rapture" turns out not to be correct, in my estimation it is not even "heresy".

I've been to your website and I appreciate your point of view over the more popular pretribulation preference, but a milder presentation would be much more effective.

IMO, of course.

HankD