The Apostasy

[carlaimpinge]

DHK,

My statement didn't LIMIT anyone from posting. It stated PLAINLY that I was not discussing the subject with that person, and that he could refer back to other posts concerning the subject.

You certainly should ask others to refrain from their "malicious" slurs AFTER you get through reading the whole thread. Don't single me out. If you can't find them, I'll be glad to repost them for you in a single thread.

The man's DOCTRINE is questioned. When you can find a way to SEPARATE a man from his doctrine, then let me know. As far as "gracious" posting, I am very gracious UNTIL not permitted to be so.

In Christ Jesus,
Carl

 

[carlaimpinge]

And there it is folks. JUST LIKE I SAID.

The man couldn't give the verses for his FALSE statement.

Quote:

Daniel's 70th week (AKA: DAY OF THE LORD, DAY OF CHRIST)
is the 7-year wide boundery between the Gentile Age
and the Millinnial Kingdom of Christ Age (AKA: DAY OF THE LORD,
DAY OF CHRIST).

Unquote.

He CAN'T, DOESN'T, and WILL NOT present ANY VERSE FROM ANY VERSION to document, prooftext, or corroborate that false teaching.

His teaching of a preweek rapture is an ILLUSION of a "mathematical, geometric" theorem FORMED from DELUSION.

No prooftexts.

You proved that you can't produce the verses.

2 Corinthians 2:17 For we are not as many, which corrupt the word of God: but as of sincerity, but as of God, in the sight of God speak we in Christ.

 

[Ed Edwards]

I note in the previous post, the verse
does not support any of the contentions.
None of the contentions are supported by
scripture.

I tryed to make an excuse for his behavior,
but he wouldn't buy it.

2 Thessalonians 2:1-4 (KJV1769):

Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord
Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled,
neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from
us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day
shall not come, except there come a falling away first,
and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above
all that is called God, or that is worshipped;
so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God,
shewing himself that he is God.

The subject of the sentence of verse 1 and 2 is "we", i.e.
the author(s) of the letter. The subject of the sentence
in verse 3 and 4 is "you" meaning "brethren" from verse 1.

II.Theffalonians II:1-4 (KJV1611):

Now wee beseech you, brethren, by
the comming of our Lord Iesus CHrist,
and by our gathering together vnto him,
2. That yee bee not soone shaken in
minde, or bee troubled, neither by spirit,
nor by word, nor by letter, as from vs,
as that the day of Christ is at hand,
3. Let no man deceiue you by any meanes,
for that day shall not come, except
there come a falling away first, and that
man of sinne bee reuealed, the sonne of perdition,
4. Who opposeth and exalteth himselfe
aboue all that is called God, or that
is worshipped : so that he as God, sitteth
in the Temple of GOd, shewing himselfe
that he is God.

The subject of the whole sentence is "we" meaning the
writer(s) of 2 Thessalonians.

Carlaimpinge: "The day of Christ is a NT term of revelation, while the day of the Lord is an OT term of prophecy. (See Phil. 2,2 Thess.2, Isaiah 2, Zeph.1)"

Show me in each passage that what you said is what the Bible said.

 

[Ed Edwards]

Carlaimpinge: "The day of Christ is a NT term of revelation, while the day of the Lord is an OT term of prophecy. (See Phil. 2,2 Thess.2, Isaiah 2, Zeph.1)"

Day of Christ in the KJV1769:

Philippians 1:6 (KJV1769):
Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath
begun a good work in you will perform
it until the day of Jesus Christ:


Php 1:10 (KJV1769):
That ye may approve things that are excellent;
that ye may be sincere and without offence till the day of Christ;

Php 2:16 (KJV1769):
Holding forth the word of life; that I may rejoice in
the day of Christ, that I have not run in vain,
neither laboured in vain.

2Th 2:2 (KJV1769):
That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled,
neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as
from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

Same verses in the HCSB:

Php 1:6 (HCSB):
I am sure of this, that He who started a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.

Php 1:10 (HCSB):
so that you can determine what really matters and can be pure and blameless in the day of Christ,

Php 2:16 (HCSB):
Hold firmly the message of life. Then I can boast in the day of Christ that I didn't run in vain or labor for nothing

2 Thessalonians 2:2 (HCSB):
not to be easily upset in mind or troubled,
either by a spirit or by a message or by a letter
as if from us, alleging that the Day of the Lord has come.


Carlaimpinge: "The day of Christ concerns the gathering while the day of the Lord concerns the woman in travail with child, the time of Jacob's trouble. (2 Thess.2, Phil.1, 1 Thess.4-5 Jer.30, Zech.1)"

Day of the Lord is not found in Jeremiah 30.
What are you talking about, specific verse please.
Show me what you say is in the Bible here. Thank you.


Carlaimpinge: "The day of Christ COMES BEFORE the day of the
Lord. (1 Thess.4-5)"

These passage do not mention the "day of Christ".
I agree with your statement, it just isn't this passage that
clearly shows it.

Carlaimpinge: "The day of Christ references the SON,
while the day of the Lord references the FATHER.
The SON is not the Lord of the OT or NT term,
the day of the Lord."

Agreed. But now that i have to have a verse for everything,
you have to have a verse for everything

Carlaimpinge: "The Son is referenced in the NT terms,
the day of Christ (Phil.2, 2 Thess.2),
the day of the Lord Jesus (2 Cor.1),
the day of Jesus Christ (Phil.1),
the day of our Lord Jesus Christ (1 Cor.1)
except 2 Thess 2 "

Thank you, good insite.

Carlaimpinge: "The OT term, day of the Lord is used two times in the NT, which is given by Paul and Peter. (1 Thess.5, 2 Peter 3) and 1 Cor 5:5; 2 Thess. 2:2 NIV "


Carlaimpinge: "Luke refers to the OT prophet Joel,
stating the great and notable day of the Lord, which
is the great and terrible OR great and dreadful day of the Lord (Mal.4)"

Agreed.

Carlaimpinge: "The distinguishing factors are clear and plain."

But you failed to make it so clear and plain for the rest of us.


Here is my take:
(read your verses, if you must read verses)
"Day of Christ" and "Day of the Lord" are interchangable.
(In fact, scriptures interchanges the two in 2 Thessalonians 2:2.

2 Thessalonians 2:2 (KJV1769):
That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled,
neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us,
as that the day of Christ is at hand.

2 Thessalonians 2:2 (nKJV):
2:2
not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled,
either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us,
as though the day of Christ F2 had come.
-------------------------------------------
FOOTNOTES:
F2: NU-Text reads the Lord.



2 Thessalonians 2:2 (NCV = New Century Version)
Do not become easily upset in your thinking or afraid
if you hear that the day of the Lord has already come.
Someone may say this in a prophecy or
in a message or in a letter as if it came from us.

"Day of Christ" = "Day of the Lord" for Christ is our Lord,
Master, and Savior.
Here are three meanings of the "Day of Christ" or "Day of the Lord":

1. The time when Christ our Lord will interfeere in the affairs
of mankind again
2. The 70th Week of Daniel (AKA: Tribulation period,
time of God's wrath, etc.)
3. The Millinnial Kingdom of Christ (AKA: the Millinnial Kingdom
of the Lord)

 

[prophecynut]

Originally posted by Ed Edwards:

Day of the Lord is not found in Jeremiah 30.
What are you talking about, specific verse please.
Show me what you say is in the Bible here. Thank you.

Maybe I can help Carl on this one. As to ED

Verse 3 - God will bring his people from captivity and restore them to the land I gave their forefathers to possess, says the LORD.

This captivity is not the 70 year Babylon exile, rather when "they will fall by the sword and will be taken as prisoners to all the nations" (Lk. 21:24), during "the time of punishment in fulfillment of all that has been written (v.22). "There will be great distress in the land and wrath against this people (v.23).

The possessing of the land of their forefathers will not come until the Millennium when they will be restored (vs. 17-18).

Verse 7 - "How awful that day (day of the LORD) will be! "None will be like it," which is the same as "For then there will be great distress , unequaled from the beginning of the world until now - and never to be equaled again (Mt. 24:21)

Verse 8 - " In that day " This is the second time ED, do you see it? This is the day of the Lord when "they will serve the LORD their God and (a descendant of) David their king whom I will raise up for them" during the Millennium (v. 21).. Did you get that ED, Mill is part of the day of the Lord.

Verse 11 - "Though I completely destroy all the nations among which I scatter you, I will not completely destroy you." This is God's wrath at the end of the Trib (Rev. 16:19).

But you failed to make it so clear and plain for the rest of us.

WHAT???? You're the only one here refusing to accept simple facts.

Here is my take:
(read your verses, if you must read verses)
"Day of Christ" and "Day of the Lord" are interchangable.
(In fact, scriptures interchanges the two in 2 Thessalonians 2:2.

Versions that use Day of Christ are in error, they goofed. Scriptures aren't responsible, the different versions are.

What is the CONTEXT of 2:1-12? It is the Man of Lawlessnes who will come "in accordance with the work of Satan" when the day of the Lord comes. "Jesus will overthrow (him) with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming (v.8).

Day of the Lord = Judgment of the wicked on earth.
Day of Christ = Grace extended to the Church

 

[IveyLeaguer]

FWIW: 2 Thessalonians 2:3

Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away (ἀποστασία) first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

G646 ἀποστασία
apostasia ap-os-tas-ee'-ah
Feminine of the same as G647; defection from truth, (“apostasy”): - falling away, forsake.

G647 ἀποστάσιον
apostasion ap-os-tas'-ee-on
properly something separative, that is, (specifically) divorce: - (writing of) divorcement.

 

[Ed Edwards]

Amen, Brother IveyLeageuer -- Preach it!

One of these days, and it might be soon, i'm
going to divorce this old earth and fall
away right into the waiting arms of Jesus.


1Co 16:22 (KJV1769):
If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ,
let him be Anathema Maranatha.

There is the pretribulation rapture/resurreciton
in ONE WORD, the word "Maranatha".

Look up "Maranatha". My dictionary
says "O Lord, come".

 

[carlaimpinge]

Originally posted by Ed Edwards:

Day of the Lord is not found in Jeremiah 30.
What are you talking about, specific verse please.
Show me what you say is in the Bible here. Thank you.


The day of the Lord, according to Paul, concerns the woman in travail with child.

1 Thessalonians 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
1 Thessalonians 5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

This will match the WORDS of Jeremiah 30 and Isaiah 13.

Jeremiah 30:5 For thus saith the LORD; We have heard a voice of trembling, of fear, and not of peace.

Jeremiah 30:6 Ask ye now, and see whether a man doth travail with child? wherefore do I see every man with his hands on his loins, as a woman in travail, and all faces are turned into paleness?

Jeremiah 30:7 Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble; but he shall be saved out of it.

Jeremiah 30:8 For it shall come to pass in that day, saith the LORD of hosts, that I will break his yoke from off thy neck, and will burst thy bonds, and strangers shall no more serve themselves of him:

Jeremiah 30:9 But they shall serve the LORD their God, and David their king, whom I will raise up unto them.

Isaiah 13:6 Howl ye; for the day of the LORD is at hand; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty.

Isaiah 13:7 Therefore shall all hands be faint, and every man's heart shall melt:

Isaiah 13:8 And they shall be afraid: pangs and sorrows shall take hold of them; they shall be in pain as a woman that travaileth: they shall be amazed one at another; their faces shall be as flames.

Isaiah COINED the day of the LORD of hosts, which is also referred to as "in that day".

Isaiah 2:12 For the day of the LORD of hosts shall be upon every one that is proud and lofty, and upon every one that is lifted up; and he shall be brought low:

Isaiah 2:13 And upon all the cedars of Lebanon, that are high and lifted up, and upon all the oaks of Bashan,

Isaiah 2:14 And upon all the high mountains, and upon all the hills that are lifted up,

Isaiah 2:15 And upon every high tower, and upon every fenced wall,

Isaiah 2:16 And upon all the ships of Tarshish, and upon all pleasant pictures.

Isaiah 2:17 And the loftiness of man shall be bowed down, and the haughtiness of men shall be made low: and the LORD alone shall be exalted in that day.

Isaiah 2:18 And the idols he shall utterly abolish.

Isaiah 2:19 And they shall go into the holes of the rocks, and into the caves of the earth, for fear of the LORD, and for the glory of his majesty, when he ariseth to shake terribly the earth.

Isaiah 2:20 In that day a man shall cast his idols of silver, and his idols of gold, which they made each one for himself to worship, to the moles and to the bats;

Isaiah 2:21 To go into the clefts of the rocks, and into the tops of the ragged rocks, for fear of the LORD, and for the glory of his majesty, when he ariseth to shake terribly the earth.

Jeremiah uses that term, IN THAT DAY, in reference to the the time of Jacob's trouble, which is the great tribulation, which BEGINS at the MIDST OF THE WEEK, according to the Lord Jesus. It also refers to the time when David is raised up.

Jeremiah 30:7 Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble; but he shall be saved out of it.

Jeremiah 30:8 For it shall come to pass in that day, saith the LORD of hosts, that I will break his yoke from off thy neck, and will burst thy bonds, and strangers shall no more serve themselves of him:

Jeremiah 30:9 But they shall serve the LORD their God, and David their king, whom I will raise up unto them.

Matthew 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand

Matthew 24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

Matthew 24:17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:

Matthew 24:18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.

Matthew 24:19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!

Matthew 24:20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

Matthew 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Daniel 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Daniel 11:30 For the ships of Chittim shall come against him: therefore he shall be grieved, and return, and have indignation against the holy covenant: so shall he do; he shall even return, and have intelligence with them that forsake the holy covenant.

Daniel 11:31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.

Daniel 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

Originally posted by Ed Edwards:

Carlaimpinge: "The day of Christ references the SON,
while the day of the Lord references the FATHER.
The SON is not the Lord of the OT or NT term,
the day of the Lord."

Agreed. But now that i have to have a verse for everything,
you have to have a verse for everything


You later DISREGARD your agreement by stating that Christ is the Lord MAKING the day of Christ the day of the Lord. AGAIN, Christ is NOT THE LORD in the term. It is the FATHER, for that is an OT term, not a NT term.

Quote:

"Day of Christ" = "Day of the Lord" for Christ is our Lord,
Master, and Savior.

Unquote.

No, Christ is not the Lord in that TERM. It is the OT term, the day of the Lord, which refers to the FATHER, not the SON.

That teaching overthrows the TRUTH by stating that Christ is the Lord OF THE TERM. The Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are ALL called the Lord in the NT. Paul used Lord Christ when the Lord (Father) was in the SAME VERSE.

Colossians 3:24 Knowing that of the Lord ye shall receive the reward of the inheritance: for ye serve the Lord Christ.

Originally posted by Ed Edwards:


Here is my take:
(read your verses, if you must read verses)
"Day of Christ" and "Day of the Lord" are interchangable.
(In fact, scriptures interchanges the two in 2 Thessalonians 2:2.

Now there's the PROBLEM. They are not interchangable. There are two different readings from two different texts. The King James states day of Christ, with other versions taking the alternate reading, day of the Lord.

Paul stated that believers ESCAPED the day of the Lord. (1 Thess.5) It would be a contradiction of Pauline teaching. The day of Christ CAN'T BE interchangable with that day. It is the day of our gathering which is BEFORE the day of the Lord. (1 Thess.4-5) We are not children of the day of the Lord, but of another day.

Originally posted by Ed Edwards:

Here are three meanings of the "Day of Christ" or "Day of the Lord":

1. The time when Christ our Lord will interfeere in the affairs
of mankind again
2. The 70th Week of Daniel (AKA: Tribulation period,
time of God's wrath, etc.)
3. The Millinnial Kingdom of Christ (AKA: the Millinnial Kingdom
of the Lord) [/QB]

The day of Christ (and all forms referencing the Son) refer to the gathering of the body of Christ, along with our judgment, blessing, rewards. That's why it's the judgement seat of Christ, AND NOT GOD, in the texts of 2
Cor.5 and Rom.14. (another example of new versions distorting the truth)

That day does not come unless there comes a falling away FIRST, and the man of sin be revealed. (2 Thess.2) The revelation occurs in the MIDST OF THE WEEK, when Satan is cast down (Rev.12), and the son of perdition is given power (Rev.13). The working of miracles are connected with his coming. (Rev.13) False prophet performing.

The day of Christ/day of the Lord IS NOT the 70th week of Daniel by any prooftext.

The millenial kingdom is not the day of Christ by any prooftext.

The day of the Lord BEGINS with the INVASION of Jerusalem which coincides with the abomination of desolation in the midst of the week. (Zech.14, Jer.30, Dan.9,11, Luke 21, Rev.11, Matt.24)

It INCLUDES the millenial reign of Christ. (Isaiah 2,11,12,etc.)

There is no 7 year period of tribulation IDENTIFIED by any prooftext.

 

[IveyLeaguer]

Originally posted by Ed Edwards:
Amen, Brother IveyLeaguer -- Preach it!

Hey, Brother Ed,

Thanks, but I wasn't trying to take an eschatological position or anything, and I don't want to get involved in this particular debate.

I was just reading the thread and thought some empirical evidence would be useful to further discern the meaning of 2 Thessalonians 2:3, which is referenced numerous times in the arguments. It proves nothing about the timing of the rapture, for example, either way.

The information I posted is from Strong's and clearly indicates that the "falling away" in that verse means a "defection from (the) truth", “apostasy”, a "falling away" (from the truth), or to "forsake" (the truth). So the proper interpretation is: "Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away, an apostasy, a defection from the truth, a forsaking of the truth first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition." It cannot mean "falling off" the physical earth, or a "forsaking" of the earth or a defection from it, nor a "divorce" from the earth, but clearly means a defection from the truth of the Word of God, and from the Truth, Christ Himself. In other words, an apostasy.

Apostasy, of course, began while our Lord was still on the earth and has been ongoing since. I have every reason to believe that this distinctive apostasy, referenced in this scripture, is ongoing now. This is something God has had on my heart for several years and I am already deep into the investigation and research of it. It's etiology and inner workings are complex and mind boggling. And it is growing at an astonishing rate. But this is another subject and I'll someday write about it, maybe on this board.

So, as already hinted, an exegesis of 2 Thessalonians 2:3 does not disprove your argument. But neither should it be used as evidence to support it.

Originally posted by Ed Edwards:One of these days, and it might be soon, I'm
going to divorce this old earth and fall away right into the waiting arms of Jesus.

About that, Brother Ed, there can be no doubt whatsoever.

God bless you.

 

[prophecynut]

Amen brother carlaimpinge -- Preach it!


A few comments on Daniel 11:30-32

Originally posted by carlaimpinge:
Daniel 11:30 For the ships of Chittim shall come against him: therefore he shall be grieved, and return, and have indignation against the holy covenant: so shall he do; he shall even return, and have intelligence with them that forsake the holy covenant.

Daniel 11:31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.

Daniel 11:32 - With flattery he will corrupt those who have violated the covenant but the people who know their God will firmly resist him.


(30) I understand the "ships of Chittim" to be Roman vessels under the command of Popilius Laenas. Those that "forsake the holy covenant" as Apostate Jews (descendants of Esau).

(31) The polluting of the temple and the sacrifices taken away and abomination set up as Antiochus Epiphanes setting up an altar to the pagan god Zeus Olympius, in December 16, 167 B.C.
He also sacrificed a pig at the temple.

(32) The Jews were compelled to offer a pig on the 25th of each month to celebrate Antiochus Epiphanes' birthday. Those that did "violated the covenant." The people who knew their God and firmly resisted Antiochus were the Maccabees.

I believe the Trib or "time of the end" begins with the king/AC who exalts himself in verse 36.

 

[Ed Edwards]

Ed: -----------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Ed Edwards:One of these days, and it
might be soon, I'm
going to divorce this old earth and fall away right into
the waiting arms of Jesus.
--------------------------------------------------------

IveyLeaguer: "About that, Brother Ed, there can be no doubt whatsoever.
God bless you." Amen, Berother IveyLeaguer -- Preach it!
And a DOUBLE "God Bless you" back!

In 2 Thessalonians 2:1 Paul says he is going
to speak about two things:
1) the departure of the saints
2) the Arrival of Jesus

The Day of Christ is mentioned again, in many details.
But the gathering is NOT mentioned again at all.
Well most people don't see it again. Well except
in the GreeK "apostasia". In the KJV it was translated
"falling away" though the English word "apostasy" had been
available for centuries. Why didn't the 48 KJV translators
select "apostasy"? Prior to the KJV the six translations
had some form of "departure". Again, these translators
also had "apostasy", a perfectly good English word. But
they chose "departure". Why? Do the translaors know
more about this than we do?

 

[Ed Edwards]

I would hear more of your strange doctrines.
My ears are itchy

Is the first half of Daniel's 70th week contigious with
the second half? What happens in the first half
of Daniel's 70th week?

Carlaimpinge: "That day does not come unless there comes
a falling away FIRST ... "

I take it "that day" (according to your eschatology) is
the second half of Daniel's 70th week.
Or does the apostasy start in the first half of
the 70th week? Most the other people who posted here
don't really seem to have a grip on the difference between
apostasy and heresy, but i know you do.
What level of apostasy will cause the Antichrist to
show up and claim to be God and thus commit the AOD?

Earlier i heard the Antichrist would be Roman, Syrian,
Egyptian, Muslim, Russian, etc. NOw is somebody telling
me that the Antichrist will be a Christian?

 

[IveyLeaguer]

Originally posted by Ed Edwards:
... these translators also had "apostasy", a perfectly good English word. But they chose "departure". Why? Do the translators know more about this than we do?

Brother Ed,

. Surely they knew more about it than I do. But I suspect the King James translators did a good job with it - 'falling away' is probably as good as any, and it works well even in today's English. I've seen a few versions that translate it 'departure' and the Wycliffe does (see below), with the qualification that 'departure' means 'dissension'. And that's what I see happening today - the professed church is falling away from the truth, departing from the faith "by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons", dissenting from the faith - apostasy. That's what this verse means. Though I'm always open to further evidence, I am satisfied this scripture makes no reference to the rapture, and further exegesis would only redundantly confirm that.

Here are a number of other translations - you may notice the congruency, or agreement in meaning, of words like 'falling away', 'revolt', 'rebellion', 'apostasy', 'departing away', and 'dissension'. I hope they are helpful.

In Christ, IveyLeaguer


Amplified: Let no one deceive or beguile you in any way, for that day will not come except the apostasy comes first [unless the predicted great falling away of those who have professed to be Christians has come], and the man of lawlessness (sin) is revealed, who is the son of doom (of perdition).

Analytical-Literal: Let no one deceive you* by any means, because [that Day will not come] unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of destruction [or, the one destined to be lost],

ASV 1901: let no man beguile you in any wise: for it will not be, except the falling away come first, and the man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition,

Darby: Let not any one deceive you in any manner, because it will not be unless the apostasy have first come, and the man of sin have been revealed, the son of perdition;

1899 Douay-Rheims: Let no man deceive you by any means: for unless there come a revolt first, and the man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition

English Majority Text: Let no one deceive you by any means; for that day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is unveiled, the son of perdition,

ESV: Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,

HCSB: Don't let anyone deceive you in any way. For that day will not come unless the apostasy comes first and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction.

ISV: Do not let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day cannot come unless the rebellion takes place first and the man of sin, who is destined for destruction, is revealed.

KJV: Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

LITV: Do not let anyone deceive you in any way, because that Day will not come unless first comes the falling away, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition,

MKJV: Let not anyone deceive you by any means. For that Day shall not come unless there first comes a falling away, and the man of sin shall be revealed, the son of perdition,

NASB: Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,

Webster: Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Young's Literal: let not any one deceive you in any manner, because--if the falling away may not come first, and the man of sin be revealed--the son of the destruction.

NIV: Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for (that day will not come) until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.

NKJV: Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition,

21st Century KJV: Let no man deceive you by any means, for that Day shall not come, unless there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition,

Wycliffe: [That] No man deceive you in any manner. For but dissension come first [For no but departing away, or dissension, shall come first], and the man of sin be showed, the son of perdition,

 

[prophecynut]

CONTEXT CONTEXT CONTEXT

You have two choices: 1. Church 2. World

What's in the context of 2 Thess. 2:1-12, let me count the ways:

Antichirst
Lawlessness
Destruction
Opposition
Earthly temple
Satan
Counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders.
Evil
Deception
Perishing
Refuse to love
Condemnation
Wickedness

Whether its "falling away" or "apostasy" or "rebellion" the context clearly points to the world and its active rebellion, the supreme opposition of evil to the things of God.

OK, you got that now, do you understand that the Church is not in the context of this passage?

 

[James_Newman]

Originally posted by prophecynut:
CONTEXT CONTEXT CONTEXT

You have two choices: 1. Church 2. World

What's in the context of 2 Thess. 2:1-12, let me count the ways:

Antichirst
Lawlessness
Destruction
Opposition
Earthly temple
Satan
Counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders.
Evil
Deception
Perishing
Refuse to love
Condemnation
Wickedness

Whether its "falling away" or "apostasy" or "rebellion" the context clearly points to the world and its active rebellion, the supreme opposition of evil to the things of God.

OK, you got that now, do you understand that the Church is not in the context of this passage?

What would the world be falling away from? Worldliness? That must mean they are going to start getting right with God, I suppose.

 

[IveyLeaguer]

Originally posted by prophecynut:
CONTEXT CONTEXT CONTEXT ... Whether its "falling away" or "apostasy" or "rebellion" the context clearly points to the world and its active rebellion, the supreme opposition of evil to the things of God.

OK, you got that now, do you understand that the Church is not in the context of this passage?

The interpretation of this scripture has been a matter of some debate for centuries. In fact, there are few, if any, NT scriptures which have given occasion to greater diversity of opinion than this one. I can see you have a rather strong opinion about it. There are about 13 or 14 different opinions that I know of - yours would be one more. It proves nothing, but I must say, having just checked, that I'm humbled and somewhat pleased at the company who sees it the way I've described.

I understand that context is very important. But I see no difficulty with the interpretation and the context. The apostasy of the "so called" Christian church fits very nicely in the context of 1-12 and with the things you point out. It goes right along with everything else that will be happening, and in like passages and contexts elsewhere.

There is little dissent anymore that, considering all the manuscripts, the most accurate translation of ἀποστασία is apostasy, and most exegetes believe this means the professed church. It's possible that 'apostasy' could refer to a non-religious entity, but most consider that a stretch. As someone who is not married to any particular view of prophecy, there would seem to be consistency with other Pauline writings, etc. Personally, I think the Holy Spirit would have used another word had He intended to say, the 'apostasy of the world'.

Believe what you will. I stand on my posts.

 

[carlaimpinge]

Ivyleaguer is correct in his STAND.

Quote:

The apostasy of the "so called" Christian church fits very nicely in the context of 1-12 and with the things you point out. It goes right along with everything else that will be happening, and in like passages and contexts elsewhere.

There is little dissent anymore that, considering all the manuscripts, the most accurate translation of ἀποστασία is apostasy, and most exegetes believe this means the professed church. It's possible that 'apostasy' could refer to a non-religious entity, but most consider that a stretch. As someone who is not married to any particular view of prophecy, there would seem to be consistency with other Pauline writings, etc.

Quote.

I will AGAIN give my FIRST POST on this thread.


carlaimpinge
Member
Member # 8932

posted December 01, 2004 09:11 PM
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The falling away is a departure from Pauline teaching, which is "prophesied" by Paul. (2 Thess.2:15) He was a PREACHER as Solomon and Noah bearing prophetic implication. (2 Tim.1) Apostasy was historical, which he witnessed (2 Tim.1-2), and is perennial (See his admonition in 2 Tim.4), which AGAIN restates the PROPHETICAL ASPECT. (the last days)

Teach no other doctrine. (1 Tim.1) It will save you. (1 Tim.4) It is from the Lord Jesus THROUGH Paul. (1 Tim.6) It was SOUND DOCTRINE. (2 Tim.1) Timothy FULLY knew it. (2 Tim.3)

The falling away is the OVERTHROW of Pauline dispensationalism among members of the body of Christ, which is being witnessed in this day among "fundamentalists, conservatives, evangelicals, blah, blah, blah, etc".

That tells me one thing. The gathering is IMMINENT.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posts: 80 | From: montgomery, alabama | Registered: Jul 2004 | IP: Logged |


I will AGAIN give my post concerning the "falling away" for those who haven't read it.

carlaimpinge
Member
Member # 8932

posted December 11, 2004 12:40 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Paul refers to the GATHERING (used in 2 Thess.2) as being CAUGHT UP in 1 Thess.4, NOT "a falling away".

Paul uses two terms concerning departure from doctrinal teaching. (A falling away, fall away)

2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

The context concerns DEPARTURE from his teaching which is CLEAR and PLAIN from the FALSE TEACHING going on in Thessalonica.

He again CONFIRMS the context as departure from his teaching by VERSE 15 within the same context.

2 Thessalonians 2:15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

IN OTHER WORDS, STAND, don't fall! You stand with his teachings. Stand and fall is the opposites, not UP OR DOWN, as in caught up.

His other reference is found in the book of Hebrews.

Hebrews 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

The context of the statement is AGAIN departure from DOCTRINAL TEACHING, which leads to his statement of fall away.

Hebrews 5:12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.

Hebrews 5:13 For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.

Hebrews 5:14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

Hebrews 6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

Hebrews 6:2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.

Hebrews 6:3 And this will we do, if God permit.

Hebrews 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

Hebrews 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

Hebrews 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

The context, words, and supporting verses CERTAINLY demonstrate the falling away refers to BELIEF of FALSE TEACHING outside of that which was given by Paul the apostle.

Let God be true and every man a liar.

Added note.

The "falling away" IN THE ENGLISH compared with it's similar words and term in scripture concerns apostasy of belief, while the the Greek word from the text is given as a forsaking. English and Greek texts confirm departure of once held belief.

The kicker of the passage is the fact that we have SOME TODAY teaching the "same heresy" as was taught in Thessalonica in years past. (The day of Christ is AT HAND!)

Paul's statement is that it IS NOT "at hand". There will come a falling away first, and the man of sin be revealed.

 

[Ed Edwards]

I don't know why we are repeating posts.
Repeating the same lame arguments as before
will not give them any strength.
I've defeated all objections to "falling away" meaning "apostosy".
Nobody touched the fact that the KJV translators had
"apostasy" in their English as well as we do.
Yet they choose "falling away". Why?

Nobody touched the argument that 2 Thessalonians 2:1 mentiones
two seperate events and Paul never talks about the gathering
again, unless the falling away means the gathering.

Carlaimpinge: //Paul refers to the GATHERING (used in 2 Thess.2)
as being CAUGHT UP in 1 Thess.4, NOT "a falling away".//

I'm sorry, Sir, but both metaphors are correct.
I'm going to fall into the arms of Jesus when i leave
this old world.

BTW "at hand" means "here" not "close".
So arguments about our blessed hope being what Paul is
talking against are just flat wrong.

In what units are apostacy measured?
I have no idea, neither does anybody else.
In what units is the falling away rapture/resurreciton measured?
I know the answer to the second: ALL GONE.
When you see the real Christians gone, you know the
man of sin will show up soon (some say it will be 3½-years later).

Why was the details of the 70th week written?
When i first studied the details of the Tribulation Period
i thought: Ah Ha - God is gonna get them bad guys! This
was after 1952 when i was saved by Jesus.
In 1964 man became first capable of destroying all life on
the earth with his nuclear weapons of mass destruction.
Then i realized that the 70th week of Daniel is about
God interceeding and keeping mankind from destroying itself.
I believe that the details of the Tribulation Period are
written that some might be saved, especially the Jews of that
time. The whole Tribualtion period is God's plan
for saving Jews.

 

[carlaimpinge]

Quote:

Ed Edwards

Member # 4203

posted 16-12-2004 12:03 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I would hear more of your strange doctrines.
My ears are itchy
Is the first half of Daniel's 70th week contigious with
the second half? What happens in the first half
of Daniel's 70th week?

Carlaimpinge: "That day does not come unless there comes
a falling away FIRST ... "

I take it "that day" (according to your eschatology) is
the second half of Daniel's 70th week.
Or does the apostasy start in the first half of
the 70th week? Most the other people who posted here
don't really seem to have a grip on the difference between
apostasy and heresy, but i know you do.
What level of apostasy will cause the Antichrist to
show up and claim to be God and thus commit the AOD?

Earlier i heard the Antichrist would be Roman, Syrian,
Egyptian, Muslim, Russian, etc. NOw is somebody telling
me that the Antichrist will be a Christian?

Unquote.

There are no halves of the week. That is an error. There are periods of time (week, time, times, and dividing of time, 1290 days, 1335 days, 2300 days) noted in Daniel, but NO HALF OF THE WEEK. That is assumed from Revelation concerning the 42 months. These periods do not all START at the same PRECISE POINT in time. There are times and seasons RELATIVE to their beginning, will all being found within the OT.

There could be a "break" IN THE MIDST of the week. Most use the term as MIDDLE or MIDPOINT, but that is not the case. Midst and middle are two different words. The week is seven years, with the midst as ONE YEAR. (Midweek) Wednesday is midweek in our week. (one day)

The events of Rev.6 unto the fourth seal occur unto the midst of the week. The rider on the white horse of Rev.6 is the 7th king of the mystery of the beast. (Rev.17) AFTER HIM, the son of perdition shows up for HIS 42 months. (Rev.17, 13) HE DOES NOT REIGN FOR 7 years. That is INTERPOLATED from Daniel.

That day (according to Paul) is the day of Christ which concerns our gathering CONNECTED to the revelation at the MIDST OF THE WEEK. (2 Thess.2:1-3)

The falling away is that FROM the reillumination of biblical truth which came from Pauline dispensationalism RESURFACING under Darby, Scofiedn, and Larkin. The biblical cycle can be seen from the Old and New Testaments. (Revelation-departure in apostasy-reillumination-departure in apostasy)

WE ARE in the last days of 2 Tim.4.

The IMAGE (abomination of desolation) is placed after the man is taken out of the way and revives. It is placed by JEWS at the leading of the false prophet. (Dan.11, Rev.13)

The beast will be Gentile ruler from the northern breakup of the Grecian kingdom. (The king of the North, which would be our modern day Turkey.) Dan.7,8,11, Rev.2,13,16

That's to WHO and WHERE John is writing his book of Revelation. (churches in Turkey)

 

[carlaimpinge]

Quote:

Ed Edwards

Member # 4203

posted 16-12-2004 07:42 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I don't know why we are repeating posts.
Repeating the same lame arguments as before
will not give them any strength.
I've defeated all objections to "falling away" meaning "apostosy".
Nobody touched the fact that the KJV translators had
"apostasy" in their English as well as we do.
Yet they choose "falling away". Why?

Nobody touched the argument that 2 Thessalonians 2:1 mentiones
two seperate events and Paul never talks about the gathering
again, unless the falling away means the gathering.

Carlaimpinge: //Paul refers to the GATHERING (used in 2 Thess.2)
as being CAUGHT UP in 1 Thess.4, NOT "a falling away".//

I'm sorry, Sir, but both metaphors are correct.
I'm going to fall into the arms of Jesus when i leave
this old world.

BTW "at hand" means "here" not "close".
So arguments about our blessed hope being what Paul is
talking against are just flat wrong.

In what units are apostacy measured?
I have no idea, neither does anybody else.
In what units is the falling away rapture/resurreciton measured?
I know the answer to the second: ALL GONE.
When you see the real Christians gone, you know the
man of sin will show up soon (some say it will be 3½-years later).

Why was the details of the 70th week written?
When i first studied the details of the Tribulation Period
i thought: Ah Ha - God is gonna get them bad guys! This
was after 1952 when i was saved by Jesus.
In 1964 man became first capable of destroying all life on
the earth with his nuclear weapons of mass destruction.
Then i realized that the 70th week of Daniel is about
God interceeding and keeping mankind from destroying itself.
I believe that the details of the Tribulation Period are
written that some might be saved, especially the Jews of that
time. The whole Tribualtion period is God's plan
for saving Jews.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posts: 5349 | From: central Oklahoma | Registered: Aug 2002 | IP: Logged |

Unquote.

The repetition of correct doctrine is to COUNTERACT the same "lame" teaching of false doctrine. The strength of them is that you haven't defeated ANYTHING in those two posts, nor have you BIBLICALLY PROVED that "falling away" is the GATHERING.

That's WHY my post is restated. Paul doesn't USE THE TERM, falling away, for gathering. He used CAUGHT UP.

Who in the world WOULD KNOW "why" the KJV translators used one word over another. Not you or me. The statement is a DIVERSION from the "facts" of the TEXT and the SUBECT IN IT'S CONTEXT. (FALSE TEACHING! NOT ADHERING TO PAULINE DOCTRINAL TEACHING! Those facts are the context with Paul's closing statement to STAND in his teachings by word and epistle.)

That's WHY the repetition of BOTH POSTS. To make sure someone around GETS THE TRUTH, and not falsehood.

Of course, there zre TWO EVENTS in verse one. Paul DOES talk about the gathering again. HE CONNECTS THOSE TWO EVENTS (coming and gathering) with TWO THINGS IN THE TEXT.

The REVELATION and DESTRUCTION of the man of sin, the son of perdition.

The revelation is CONNECTED to the gathering. (Verse 2-3), while the destruction is CONNECTED to the coming. (verse 8)

Caught up IS NOT a metaphor, but a FACTUAL ACTION, which will occur, while FALLING INTO THE ARMS of Jesus is not found in any biblical or scriptural sense. Your "fantasizing" your INTERPRETATION of terms "apart" from the context in which they are used.

At hand in the King James Bible is nearness in event, place, or person. (John 7, 19, Matt.26)

The gathering is an EVENT which will not occur until those things given by Paul.

Measurement of apostasy is not the issue. The REVELATION of the man of sin is the thing which KEEPS us from leaving. (2 Thess.2:2-3) It will not occur UNTIL the midst of the week.

Your theory is a "gross" denial of scriptural facts within the context, along with fantasized defintions of words. (Falling away INTO THE ARMS OF JESUS.)

Thanks for your thoughts about your belief, but we would rather have verses.