The Apostasy

[Ed Edwards]

Prophecynut: "ME - Through out the OT and Rev. the length of time assigned to the "great tribulation" is "a time, times and half a time," "forty-two months," and "1,260 days," or 3.5 years. Daniel asked the pre incarnate Christ: "How long will it be before these astonishing things are fulfilled?" He was told, "a time, times and half a time," which is 3.5 years and not 7 years (Dn.12:6-7).//

Yes. But look at all those 3.5 year prophecies.
They cannot all be done at once.
How can gentiles overun temple mount 3½-years AND
the two witnesses testify there AT THE SAME TIME?
Even the source of the 70th week of Daniel shows two
each 3½-year time periods.
In my 5 TRibulations writing, i show the first 3½-year time
period as tribulation lite (which is a fate worse than death,
Revelation 6:16). Then things get worse: the last 3½-years
of the Great Tribulation Period.

 

[prophecynut]

Originally posted by Ed Edwards:

Yes. But look at all those 3.5 year prophecies.
They cannot all be done at once.

Oh yes brother, I came up with a chronology that fits all those prophecies in perfect order within the allotted 3.5 years.


How can gentiles overun temple mount 3½-years AND
the two witnesses testify there AT THE SAME TIME?

Rev. 11
The outer court of the Temple Mount is now in possession of the Gentiles with the Dome of the Rock. If its still there when the Trib starts they would not trample on the sacred Temple Mount. Instead they will trample on the "holy city" for 42 months.

Verse 5 says of the two witnesses "If anyone tries to harm them, fire comes from their mouths and devours their enemies." NIV. God will allow trampling of the city but not the two witnesses, not until their death near the end of the Trib. Their bodies will "lie in the street of the great city" and not specifically on the Temple Mount.

 

[James_Newman]

Prophecynut, you said:

The rapture cannot occur before the AC is revealed.

Where do you get this idea from? I think I had gotten the idea this was what you were saying, but I havent seen a proof text for this. This seems to be dependant on your interpretation that 'that day shall not come' is speaking of the rapture. What scriptures lead you to this conclusion?

 

[prophecynut]

The answer is found in 2 Thess. 2

Sorry to say this passage is live ammunition for posties that attempt to shoot down pre-tribbers.

Verse 1 speaks of the rapture, "our being gathered to him." Paul continues on this subject in verse 2 by telling the disciples not to be alarmed if someone claims the rapture or "day of Christ" or "day of the Lord" has already come, because "that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed..." He must be revealed before we are "gathered to him" on that day. His revealing does not occur in the time frame of the Trib, but before it.

It does not state the length of time after his revealing when that day begins with the rapture. I know the Church will be kept from the hour of trial that is coming upon the world (Rev. 3:10).
I conclude from the above that the rapture is between his revealing and the beginning of the Trib.

I know it will occur on Sunday, the Lord's day (Rev. 1:10), and possibly on a anniversary date for Pentecost.

 

[Ed Edwards]

Prophecynut: "The answer is found in 2 Thess. 2
Sorry to say this passage is live ammunition for
posties that attempt to shoot down pre-tribbers."

Actually on page 2 somebody mentioned the revelation of the
antichrist before the rapture theory. On page 3 i get
condemned for talking about what i think 2 Thess. 2 means:

Deafposttrib: "Your interpreting of 2 Thess. 2:1-3 ... "

Strange the anti-pretribber didn't get gigged for "interpreting".

The whole argument boils down to the meaning of "and"
in verse 1. Needless to say we are discussing the seperation/togetherness
of the rapture/resurrection coming and the defeat of the antichrist
coming in another thread in this forum. Does the Greek "KAI" here,
usually "and" in english (but can be when, then, but, etc.),
mean the two connected phrases are which?

1. two sets describing the same members
2. two similiar sets with overlapping membership
3. two different sets

If "3. two different sets" are described or if
"2. two similiar sets with overlapping membership"
are described, then we must wonder where is the repeated
discussion of the gathering? I believe it to be in the phrase where
the KJV1769 uses "falling away" and modern versions use "apostasy".
The falling away is the rapture/resurrection.

You wouldn't believe what kinds of contradictions you get if
call the two sets connected by "and" in 2 Thessalonians 2:1
equal sets -- what kinds of contradictions that leads to.

Anyway, it kind of blows away the theory of some arguing here
that every statement has to have a cast of supporting verses.
In short, we are discussing what 2 Thessalonilans 2 means,

Sorry to say but 2 Thess 2 is
live ammunition so pretribbers can
toast posties

 

[Ed Edwards]

If all the saved Jews are protected in the wilderness by God for 3.5 years, how come
there are two wild-eyed Jews preaching
in the center of Jerusalem? Sorry, i believe
these happen at two different 3.5 year
periods, each the half of Daniel's 70th week.

 

[rjprince]

I like that, Ed. To toast posties. Pretty good.

 

[carlaimpinge]

Paul refers to the GATHERING (used in 2 Thess.2) as being CAUGHT UP in 1 Thess.4, NOT "a falling away".

Paul uses two terms concerning departure from doctrinal teaching. (A falling away, fall away)

2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

The context concerns DEPARTURE from his teaching which is CLEAR and PLAIN from the FALSE TEACHING going on in Thessalonica.

He again CONFIRMS the context as departure from his teaching by VERSE 15 within the same context.

2 Thessalonians 2:15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

IN OTHER WORDS, STAND, don't fall! You stand with his teachings. Stand and fall is the opposites, not UP OR DOWN, as in caught up.

His other reference is found in the book of Hebrews.

Hebrews 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

The context of the statement is AGAIN departure from DOCTRINAL TEACHING, which leads to his statement of fall away.

Hebrews 5:12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.

Hebrews 5:13 For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.

Hebrews 5:14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

Hebrews 6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

Hebrews 6:2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.

Hebrews 6:3 And this will we do, if God permit.

Hebrews 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

Hebrews 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

Hebrews 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

The context, words, and supporting verses CERTAINLY demonstrate the falling away refers to BELIEF of FALSE TEACHING outside of that which was given by Paul the apostle.

Let God be true and every man a liar.


This goes HAND IN HAND with my first post on page 2 concerning this suject.

carlaimpinge
Member
Member # 8932

posted 01-12-2004 09:11 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The falling away is a departure from Pauline teaching, which is "prophesied" by Paul. (2 Thess.2:15) He was a PREACHER as Solomon and Noah bearing prophetic implication. (2 Tim.1) Apostasy was historical, which he witnessed (2 Tim.1-2), and is perennial (See his admonition in 2 Tim.4), which AGAIN restates the PROPHETICAL ASPECT. (the last days)

Teach no other doctrine. (1 Tim.1) It will save you. (1 Tim.4) It is from the Lord Jesus THROUGH Paul. (1 Tim.6) It was SOUND DOCTRINE. (2 Tim.1) Timothy FULLY knew it. (2 Tim.3)

The falling away is the OVERTHROW of Pauline dispensationalism among members of the body of Christ, which is being witnessed in this day among "fundamentalists, conservatives, evangelicals, blah, blah, blah, etc".

That tells me one thing. The gathering is IMMINENT.

 

[prophecynut]

Originally posted by Ed Edwards:
the KJV1769 uses "falling away" and modern versions use "apostasy".
The falling away is the rapture/resurrection.

Honestly, this is what I call warped theology.

The "falling away" or "apostasy" is an abandoning of what one believed in, as a faith, political party, principles, etc. A revolt or departure of position once held.

Do you realize if everyone abandoned their faith in Christ the Church would never get off the ground and would make God a liar. Of course this would never happen because once in Christ you will never abandon the faith, you are secure in Christ. This is a distortion of the Word typical of cults.

Apostasy has characterized the Church almost from its inception, but Paul referred to a specific distinguishable apostasy that will come in the future. This is a major event folks, on par with the AC's revealing.

This apostasy or "rebellion" is associated with the Antichrist and is in the context of the unbeliever, it is not associated with the Church. Rebellion means: an act or state of armed, open resistance to authority, government, etc., a defiance of or opposition to any control.
Christians who are truly in Christ will not fall away or permanently rebel against the One who saved them. Unbelievers who reject God are in defiance and are rebelling against him to a greater degree than in the past. This rebellion against God's control will accumulate in the Antichrist.

 

[Ed Edwards]

improperly quoted by carlaimpinge:
-------------------------------
2 Thessalonians 2:15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast,
and hold the traditions which ye have been taught,
whether by word, or our epistle.
-------------------------------

52 Years ago i hear about the pretribulation rapture from
a Southern Baptist Minister. I wanted to be one that was
taken and not one that was left behind. So i called Jesus
my Lord and He became my Savior.
My spiritual menotors taught the pretribulation rapture and
Paul taught the pretribulation rapture.
I have been faithful to this verse.

Now i'm going to do 2 Thessalonians 3:3:14-15 and
note that Carl still refuses to honor the request of an
elder and preform a common debate courtesy of
listing the source bible with the verse.
Like so:
-------------------------------
2 Thessalonians 2:15 (KJV1769):
Therefore, brethren, stand fast,
and hold the traditions which ye have been taught,
whether by word, or our epistle.
-------------------------------

 

[James_Newman]

Originally posted by prophecynut:
The answer is found in 2 Thess. 2

Sorry to say this passage is live ammunition for posties that attempt to shoot down pre-tribbers.

Verse 1 speaks of the rapture, "our being gathered to him." Paul continues on this subject in verse 2 by telling the disciples not to be alarmed if someone claims the rapture or "day of Christ" or "day of the Lord" has already come, because "that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed..." He must be revealed before we are "gathered to him" on that day. His revealing does not occur in the time frame of the Trib, but before it.

It does not state the length of time after his revealing when that day begins with the rapture. I know the Church will be kept from the hour of trial that is coming upon the world (Rev. 3:10).
I conclude from the above that the rapture is between his revealing and the beginning of the Trib.

I know it will occur on Sunday, the Lord's day (Rev. 1:10), and possibly on a anniversary date for Pentecost.

2Th 2:1-3
(1) Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
(2) That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
(3) Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

You havent shown that this 'gathering' is 'the rapture'. Even if it were, Paul already described the day of Christ that he is referring to in the previous chapter, and it really doesn't fit the description of the rapture. You couldn't prove a midweek rapture any more than you could prove a midweek end of the world with this passage.

This is the day he is speaking of in chap 2 verse 3.
2Th 1:7-10
(7) And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
(8) In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
(9) Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
(10) When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

You are ignoring plain context when you shift gears and say he is talking about the rapture 5 verses later. 'That day' in 2:3 is the same 'that day' in 1:10.

I think there is an assumption being made here? You should work your way back and prove the assumption first. Then your argument might hold water.

 

[prophecynut]

Originally posted by James_Newman:

You havent shown that this 'gathering' is 'the rapture'.

'That day' in 2:3 is the same 'that day' in 1:10.

Did you consider the meaning of "our" in "our being gather to him?" It is the possessive form of we ; belonging to those in question. The gatherering to him belongs to the Thessalonians and all believers in Christ. Those is question are the "brothers" in Christ, the recipients of Pauls letter (1:1-3)


1:10; 2:3 refers to the same day, as you said, but at different times within that day. As I printed out in another thread, that day begins with the rapture, includes the Second Coming and ends with the day of God or the great white throne.

The context of 5-9 points to earthly judgments at the Second Coming in that day.


When Christ "comes to be glorified in his holy people" (V. 10), the church saints, it will occur at the beginning of that day.

Remember, earthly judgements always in the context of the unbeliever and heavenly rewards in the context of the believer. Don't mix the two as if they were the same event.

 

[carlaimpinge]

Quote from Ed:

improperly quoted by carlaimpinge:
-------------------------------
2 Thessalonians 2:15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast,
and hold the traditions which ye have been taught,
whether by word, or our epistle.
-------------------------------

Unquote.

I too am an elder, along with being an ordained preacher since 1970.

The poor soul himself has turned to bleating; STATING everyone SHOULD FOLLOW what he "thinks" is proper, correct, and courteous. The man KNOWS from where the text came. It's the SAME ONE he has referred to also within this thread. (See his previous post.) I ONLY USE that one, unless I want to point out the "falsity" of others.

THE HOLY SCRIPTURES WERE NOT IMPROPERLY QUOTED.

Only "in his mind, manner, and method" of DOING.

He not only SLANDERED me, but also LIED, while "deceiving" you with that statement.

ALL this is "pious poop" (religious dung) to get away from the facts of the SUBJECT, which have repeatedly been denied, distorted, and demeaned.

I am most certainly glad that Bro. Ed has taught a pretrib rapture since his conversion. PRETRIB IS CORRECT, but preweek is not. It is NOW time for him to "go on unto perfection" as Apollos (Acts 18) and LEARN "finer details" which have since arisen past Darby, Scofield, and Larkin.

Revelation of biblical truth is ONGOING. It didn't end with them. There is plenty more to find out about the Book, IF you believe it.

IF NOT, you "become" a reprobate UNTO TRUTH, which has arisen. (See Spurgeon, along with many other BAPTISTS, who was a reprobate unto the TRUTH of the pretrib rapture.)

[ December 11, 2004, 05:34 PM: Message edited by: carlaimpinge ]

 

[prophecynut]

Originally posted by carlaimpinge:

Revelation of biblical truth is ONGOING. It didn't end with them. There is plenty more to find out about the Book, IF you believe it.

I'll give a big AMEN to that

 

[Ed Edwards]

Carlaimpinge: "I am most certainly glad that Bro. Ed has taught
a pretrib rapture since his conversion. PRETRIB IS CORRECT,
but preweek is not."

Interesting ??? I deny ever teaching the preweek rapture.
I teach the rapture/resurrection at the beginning of the
70th week of Daniel.

Obviously you never took a geometry course under a qualified
geometry teacher. In a line segment you can include or exclude
the end points. The pretribulation rapture sees the rapture
as an included start point of the 70th week of Daniel.

BTW, where have you misplaced the first half of the
70th week of Daniel?

The rapture/resurrection (AKA: the "falling away" in the KJV1769)
is the included start point of the WHOLE 70th week of Daniel
(AKA: the Tribulation period).

 

[carlaimpinge]

Quote:

Interesting ??? I deny ever teaching the preweek rapture.
I teach the rapture/resurrection at the beginning of the
70th week of Daniel.

Unquote.

Your doubletalk DEMONSTRATES your deceitfulness and incompetence. A preweek rapture IS a rapture at the BEGINNING of the 70th week of Daniel.

So now your blaming your foolishness on your geometry teacher?! My, my.

I don't "need" a geometry course to understand bible doctrine concerning the gathering. ALL I NEED is the Holy Spirit and the Holy Scriptures.

Quote:

The pretribulation rapture sees the rapture
as an included start point of the 70th week of Daniel.

Unquote.

NOT ACCORDING TO ANY BIBLE VERSE IN ANY BIBLE VERSION.

John Walvoord, the greatest teacher of the preweek rapture would not, could not, and did not state that.

That's the POINT in the subject which you evade. No prooftexts of scripture for a 7 year tribulation IDENTIFIED as the "whole of Daniel's week".

Quote:

The rapture/resurrection (AKA: the "falling away" in the KJV1769)
is the included start point of the WHOLE 70th week of Daniel
(AKA: the Tribulation period).

Unquote.

There he goes USING "false, unbiblical terms" (The tribulation period)

THE TIME OF TRIUBLATION which concerns the week of Daniel BEGINS in the MIDST OF THE WEEK, according to the Lord Jesus! (Matt.24, Mark 13)

IDENTIFYING it as 7 years WITHOUT corroboration is blatant falsehood. In other words, his OPINION based on nothing but thin air.

Why you poor soul, I have not misplaced ANY PART of Daniel's week. I have it coming up JUST AS YOU.

 

[Dr. Bob]

Carl - you have the right to believe anything you come up as your model of future events. I see Ed presenting his side clearly and YOU attacking and sniping at him.

Please be careful to deal with ISSUES and not with ED. Everybody picks on him and he's fragile!

And, of course, Ed is right here in his view. But like I said, you have the right to believe anything you want . . .

 

[Ed Edwards]

Said by a midweek rapture advocate:
"The timing is on the DAY of Christ, not to be
confused with the Day of the Lord."

II.Theffalonians II:2 (KJV1611):
That yee bee not soone shaken in minde, or bee troubled,
neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as
from vs, as that the day of Christ is at hand,

2 Thessalonians 2:2 (HCSB):
not to be easily upset in mind or troubled,
either by a spirit or by a message or by a letter as
if from us, alleging that the Day of the Lord has come.

Which of the different "Day of Christ" and
"Day of the Lord" is intended in this passage?

 

[James_Newman]

Originally posted by prophecynut:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by James_Newman:

You havent shown that this 'gathering' is 'the rapture'.

'That day' in 2:3 is the same 'that day' in 1:10.

Did you consider the meaning of "our" in "our being gather to him?" It is the possessive form of we ; belonging to those in question. The gatherering to him belongs to the Thessalonians and all believers in Christ. Those is question are the "brothers" in Christ, the recipients of Pauls letter (1:1-3)
</font>[/QUOTE]This is the assumption- all believers are gathered in the rapture BEFORE the final harvest. This wouldn't make much sense in light of the parable of the wheat and the tares, among others. If there is a general gathering of all believers, I would hesitate to say it is the rapture in absence of scriptural proof of this. This is 'Left Behind' theology and has little bearing on reality. Yes people will be left behind. It will not necessarily be because they were not saved.

If the rapture is conditional, there is no reason for us to think this verse is in any way referring to the rapture. It is referring to exactly what it purports to refer to, the day when the Lord comes to recompense the world. This would be the most common usage of day of the Lord in the bible.

'But this is the day of Christ, not the day of the Lord.' Yes, it is the day of Christ, who is the Lord. I don't know how you would show any mystical division between the day of the Lord and the day of Christ. If you do know how to do it, tell me which category this verse falls into:
(1Co 1:8) Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.

1:10; 2:3 refers to the same day, as you said, but at different times within that day. As I printed out in another thread, that day begins with the rapture, includes the Second Coming and ends with the day of God or the great white throne.


The context of 5-9 points to earthly judgments at the Second Coming in that day.


When Christ "comes to be glorified in his holy people" (V. 10), the church saints, it will occur at the beginning of that day.

Remember, earthly judgements always in the context of the unbeliever and heavenly rewards in the context of the believer. Don't mix the two as if they were the same event.

I could almost agree with this statement that the day of the Lord encompasses many events. Yes, the day of the Lord/day of Christ can refer to different aspects of the second coming. It could refer to the rapture in some instances, if you take such a view. Most people who do not believe in the rapture have no problem assigning the day of the Lord to something else and rolling right along with it. It has a general connotation of 'the end.' You do not pass the day of the Lord and collect $200, that is for sure.

Your idea of "earthly judgments always for the unbeliever" seems to be the driving force behind your interpretations. I can't blame you for believing this in this Laodicean age, but it doesn't really jive with what the bible teaches. The idea that you can take any warning passages and just toss them out because your a Christian is dangerous to say the least.

1Co 11:30 For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.

This is an earthly judgment for believers who were partaking of the Lord's supper unworthily. I find it almost funny (if not rather sad) that one of the best proof texts for any kind of rapture, luke 21:36, most people won't touch because it is clearly conditional.

 

[prophecynut]

Originally posted by James_Newman:

Yes people will be left behind. It will not necessarily be because they were not saved.


The idea that you can take any warning passages and just toss them out because your a Christian is dangerous to say the least.

Sir, you are the one not jiven with the Bible.