The Apostasy

[prophecynut]

2 Thess. 2:3-4 gives the timing of his revealing:

".... that day (day of the Lord) will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed ...... he sets himself up in God's temple proclaiming himself to be God."

The above is closely related to and probably precedes the AOD at mid point of the 7 year covenant.

He is not revealed when the covenant begins, he is a participant with other nations confirming the covenant with Israel. Its possible for us to know his identity, but he is not officially revealed until he proclaims himself to be God. This could happen any time after the temple is completed after the covenant is signed.

 

[Ed Edwards]

And when the Lord destroys the antichrist,
that will also be mid week? Come on,
read 2 Thess in light of Daniel 9:27.
Right after the rapture/resurrection
of the church age born-again redeamed
mostly gentile elect saints,
Antichrist will confirm the covenent
and be made known at the start of the week.
Antichrist will commit the AOD and
declare himself god midweek.
The real Christ will destroy the antichrist
at His Second Coming end of week.


HEre is an outline of eschatology:
--------------------------------
Pretrib pre-mill outline of time forward:

0. church age continues <-- you are here
1. rapture/resurrection
2. Tribulation time
3. Second Advent of Jesus event
4. literal MK=millinnial kingdom
5. new heaven & new earth


Expanded pretrib timeline:

0. church age continues

1. rapture/resurrection

2. The 7-year Tribulation Period

2a. Starting events
2a1. The seven year AC/Israel treaty
2a2. The revelation of the AC

2b. the first half (3.5years) - the Tribulation period
(these items are not necessarily in time sequence)

2b1. The Seal Judgments (Revelation 6)
2b2. Rise of the Antichrist
2b3. Ten nation confederacy (Daniel 2:42-44;
---- Daniel 7:7,24; Rev 12:3; Rev 17:12,16)
2b4. The ministry of Elijah (Rev 11:3, Malachi 4:5,6)
2b5. Ministry of the 144,000 Israeli (Rev 7)
2b6. The Trumpet judgements/wrath (Rev 8-9)
2b7. The false church (ecclesiastical Babylon)
----- (Revelation 17:1-6)

2c. the mid-tribulation events
(these items are not necessarily in time sequence)

2c1. The Little Scroll (Rev 10)
2c2. AC killed (Rev 13:3)
2c3. Satan cast out of heaven (Rev 12:7,9)
2c4. Resurrection of AC (Rev 13:3,4)
2c5. 3 kings killed, 7 submit to AC
2c6. destruction by AC of false church (Rev 7:16)
2c7. Death/resurrection of two witnesses
2c8. Worship of the AC starts (Rev 13:3,4,8)
2c9. Rise of the False Prophet (Rev 13:11-15)
2c10. MOB=mark of the beast (Rev 13:16-18)
2c11. 7-year covenant broken (Isaiah 28:18; Daniel 11:41)
2c12. AOD=abomination of Desolation
----- (Daniel 9:27; Matthew 24:15,16; 2 Thess 2:4)
2c13. Persecution of the Jews begins
----- (Rev 12:1-6)

2d. the second half (3.5years) - the Great Tribulation period
(these items are not necessarily in time sequence)

2d1. the Bowl Judgments/wrath (Rev 16)
2d2. protection of the Jewish Remnant
---- (Micah 2:12; Matthew 24:16; Revelation 12:6,14)
2d3. Armageddon (these items are in time sequence):

2d3a. - assembling the allies of AC
------- (Rev 16:12-16)
2d3b. - destruction of Babylon
------- (Isaiah 13; Jeremiah 50-51; Revelation 18)
2d3c. - Fall of Jerusalem
------- (Micah 4:11-5:1; Zachariah 12:1-9; 14:1,2)
2d3d. - Armies of AC at Bozrah (Jeremiah 49:13,14)
2d3e. - Conversion of Israel complete
------- (Zechariah 12:10; Romans 11:25-27)

(2e the end of the Trib, which is the Second Advent
---- of Jesus to defeat the AC and set up the MK)

3. Second Advent of Jesus event
3a. postrib gathering and resurrection of the trib saints
3b. antichrist and false prophet are cast alive into the Lake of Fire
- 19:20-22!
3c. The Judgment of the Nations= Matthew 25:31-46

4. literal MK=millinnial kingdom

5. Satan loosed for a little season to deceive the Nations - Revelation 20:7-8!

6. The final battle of God and Magog! - Revelation 20:8-9!

7. Satan cast into the lake of Fire. - Revelation 20:10!

8. The Great White Throne of Judgment! - Revelation 20:11-15!

9.new heaven & new earth - 2 Peter 3:10

10. The Eternal Kingdom! The New Heavens and New Earth
and the New Jerusalem! - Revelation 21:1-3!

 

[Ed Edwards]

I find these variation among various eschatologies:

1. The meaning of "Day" and "day" in 2 Peter 3:10

2 Peter 3:10 (HCSB):
But the Day of the Lord will come like a thief;
on that day the heavens will pass away with a loud noise,
the elements will burn and be dissolved,
and the earth and the works on it will be disclosed.


2. The meaning of "Day" in 2 Thessalonians 2:3

2 Thessalonians 2:3 (HCSB)
Don't let anyone deceive you in any way.
For that day will not come unless the apostasy comes
first and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction.

3. The meaning of "apostasy" (HCSB) or "fall away" (KJV1769)
in 2 Thessalonians 2:3

2 Thessalonians 2:3 (HCSB)
Don't let anyone deceive you in any way.
For that day will not come unless the apostasy comes
first and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction.

2 Thessalonians 2:3 (KJV1769):
Let no man deceive you by any means:
for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first,
and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;


4. The meaning of "first" in Revelation 20:6

Revelation 20:6 (HCSB):
Blessed and holy is the one who shares in the first resurrection!
The second death has no power over these,
but they will be priests of God and the Messiah,
and they will reign with Him for 1,000 years.

5. The meaning of the first "and" in Matthew 24:31

Matthew 24:31 (HCSB):
He will send out His angels with a loud trumpet,
and they will gather His elect from the four winds,
from one end of the sky to the other.

Interesting, the HCSB doesn't translate the Greek KAI that
starts this verse???

Matthew 24:31 (KJV1769):
And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet,
and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds,
from one end of heaven to the other.

-Interesting, the difference between eschatologies
is the meaning of a few key words

 

[James_Newman]

Originally posted by prophecynut:
Correct James, the only difference is the length of the Trib, both views has the Church out of here before God's judges the earth. All of Rev. 6-19 is crammed into the last 3.5 years.

A mid-week rapture negates the imminency of His return, a major tenet of the pre-week view.

So the real issue is whether our Lord delayeth His coming or not... If you could say that the 'rapture' must occur 'mid-week' and the week hasn't started yet, then the Lord can't possibly come back right now. Personally I believe in a possible mid-trib rapture, but that will be for the ones who woke up after missing the pre-trib rapture.

 

[carlaimpinge]

Ed,

Check your eyesight. They were IN THE POST above. (See 2 Thess.2) Rev.12-13 demonstrate that the REVELATION of the BEAST occurs AT THE FALL OF SATAN.

Who do you think the "his" refers to brother? What in the world do you think we are discussing?

He's the man of sin, the SON OF PERDITION, who is REVEALED, after the working of Satan. MIDST OF THE WEEK, not at the BEGINNING. Context bud.

Don't make me laugh. You're pitiful. You've EVADED the verses.

If the readers ACCEPT "your understanding" INSTEAD of the BIBLE TEACHING BY CONTEXT of the revelation, they will just as deceived as any Catholic who believes in the Assumption of Mary. They have the SAME VERSES as you, when it comes to prooftexting what they believe.

Your "riot act" is about as applicable to Christian practice as "naked mudwrestling". Paul didn't RESPECT the opinions or the understanding of Hymie and Phil in connection with the RESURRECTION, which occurs along with the LIVING being caught up! (See 2 Tim.2) Find the verses. Read the whole CHAPTER. He called them "vessels of dishonour".

I don't respect the opinons of Jehovah Witnesses, Mormons, Catholics, OR BAPTISTS, which deny, distort, and demean the words of the Holy Spirit. Heresy is where you find it. It was "certainly" prevalent among Christians. (1 Cor.11)

Got it?

You're doing ropey dope.

In Christ Jesus,
Carl

 

[carlaimpinge]

Ed,

Quit trying to dazzle everyone with deceitful dialogue.

YOU BELIEVE the rapture is preweek. YOU BELIEVE the revelation of the man of sin occurs at the BEGINNING of Daniel's week.

Where's your verses?


Quote:
I don't know how you got a believe in a preweek revelation.
The revelation of the antichrist is AFTER the rapture/resurrection.
The rapture/resurrection is at the start of the week.
Unquote.

Where's YOUR STATEMENTS with verses?

Don't play the simpleton. I quote from the Holy Scriptures, and you know from where the quotation comes.

Watch the "false" PRIVATE INTERPRETATION with no prooftext of corroboration. Mere opinion, speculation, and suppositition from a PREWEEK RAPTURIST. (Ed then desires to speak personally to me which I don't mind.) It's too bad that YOU "will not" exposit the context, and give us an eisogesis, INSTEAD of exegesis.

Quote:

This obviously means the revelation at the beginning of the
week and the destruction at the end of the week.
God knows the beginning from the end. He shares it with us.
To bad some of us can't get it.

Unquote.

Quote:
YOur failure to provide a better explanation means you loose the
point here that the revelation of antichrist is at the beginning
of the week.
Unquote.

Why you poor silly soul. You can't respond to the points, much less DEBATE anything. READ the statement of Paul's which I gave. (2 Thess.2:8-10)

Now I'm tired of your evasion.

In Christ Jesus,
Carl

 

[Bro Tony]

Interesting thread guys. Really no need to get nasty, why not just deal with differences in understanding of Scriptures, instead of the nastiness. 1 Cor 13----"...if I have all wisdom and do not love..."

Bro Tony

 

[James_Newman]

Why would we assume that the gathering in 2Thes 2 is not referring to the harvest?

Matthew 13:30
Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

Revelation 14:15
And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

 

[prophecynut]

Originally posted by James_Newman:

So the real issue is whether our Lord delayeth His coming or not... If you could say that the 'rapture' must occur 'mid-week' and the week hasn't started yet, then the Lord can't possibly come back right now. Personally I believe in a possible mid-trib rapture, but that will be for the ones who woke up after missing the pre-trib rapture.

The coming of the Lord will not be delayed and is not the issue, before the foundation of the earth God chose a particular day for the rapture that will be fulfilled according to his perfect will.

There seems to be confusion in your post as to the different pre Trib views. The popular view has the rapture as a pre-week, pre-7 year Trib event. My view has the rapture as a mid-week, pre-3.5 year Trib event.

Just how long is the Trib? The popular view is 7 years, I believe it's 3.5 years, the second half of the 7 year covenant. From Dn. 9:27 we know that this 7 years begins with a covenant accepted by many (Muslim) nations and not just between the Antichrist and Israel. Three and half years into this covenant the Antichrist will break it, forcefully putting "an end to sacrifice and offering" on the Temple Mount. At mid point of this covenant the AC assumes control over Jerusalem and begins his reign on earth. The second half of the covenant is the same period of time mentioned in Rev. 13:5 when the AC is given "authority for forty-two months." The first half of the covenant begins with peace and the second half with war initiated by the AC. This pattern of peace first and then war is confirmed by 1 Thess 5:3; "While people are saying 'Peace and safety'(first half), destruction (2nd half)will come on them suddenly , as labor pains on a pregnant woman (Mt. 24:8), and they will not escape."

Take notice that this "destruction" or the day of the Lord comes unexpectedly like a trap (Lk. 21:34-35), there will be no fore warning allowing time to prepare for it. If the rapture were to occur pre-week then people would have 3.5 years to prepare for the destruction in the second half of the 7 years. The rapture has to occur
"suddenly" without warning or immediately before the destruction of that day for it to come unexpectedly "upon all those who live on the face of the whole earth.'

1 Thess. 5:2 has the day of the Lord coming "like a thief in the night " to the unbeliever and not those who are prepared and waiting for the Lord's return (V. 4). I sincerely believe that this night time occurrence of the thief coming right after the rapture applies to America. If it were to occur at night time here, it would certainly trap people unexpectedly in the day of the Lord.

I hope my explanation is clear to you, if not then ask again.

 

[prophecynut]

James, you have three different harvests posted.

2 Thess. 2 is comprised of only those living and dead IN CHRIST when raptured.

Mt. 13:30 is the judgment of the nations on earth at the Second Coming when the sheep enter the earthly kingdom and the goats are condemned to eternal punishment (Mt. 25:31-46)..

Rev. 14:15 is Armageddon when the blood flowing out of God's "winepress" will rise as "high as the horses bridles for a distance of 1,600 stadia (v.20)." Or approximately the length of Palestine from north to south, the same as in Jer. 12:12.

 

[James_Newman]

Matthew 13
37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;
38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

Rev 14:15
And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

How do you figure that these are not the same harvest? How many times can you reap the same field?

 

[carlaimpinge]

Tony,

No nastiness is going on in this thread. Just simple IDENTIFICATION of evasive tactics which some take to be so. Paul's calls it rebuke, reproof and correction. (2 Tim.4)

Charity REJOICETH in the truth. (1 Cor.13) It doesn't back down from those "believers" who teach DIFFERENTLY. (See Acts 15, 2 Tim.2)

In Christ Jesus,
Carl

 

[Bro Tony]

Carl,

Have no problem with Truth. Have no problem with believer's struggling and debating Truth. This topic is an in house debate. There are good Christian teachers who hold all these views. No need to condesend toward others, use the word heretic or infer because one does not hold a view they may not be "believers". Deal with the issue and love one another. Come to one another in all humility rather than arrogance and pride. Assume that others are open to your view, also recognize that it is your view and is not infallible.

The truth is you may be right and others may be wrong. Or both may be wrong. Especially when it comes to this topic no one can claim to have figured out all the mysteries.

Bro Tony

BTW- I am not addressing this to Carl personally. Part of it is addressed to myself as I have not always done this on this board. I pray that the Lord will help me and others to approach issues in Truth and love.

 

[DeafPosttrib]

James is correct.

Christ tells us, there shall be harvest at the end of the world in Matthew chapter 13 & 25:31-46. There is the only one harvest at Christ's coming.

The harvest shall not come till we shall see apostasy and the revealed of Antichrist first according to 2 Thess. 2:1-8.

Reading Matthew chapter 13 is not difficult for us to understanding.

Unbelievers shall not be separated from believers till the end of the world at Christ's coming - Matt. 13:29-30, 38-43. Same with Matt. 25:31-46.

Rev. 14:14-20 tell the same passage as Matthew 13 & 25:31-46. All of these speak of a single harvest on the last day of this age.

Dan. 9:24-27 already fulfilled at Calvary.

We do not have wait for the coming 'week'. 'Week' was already determined by God nearly 2,500 years ago. God setted 70 weeks from Daniel's time to Calvary for 490 years. There was no 'gap time' between Dan. 9:26 & 27. Verse 26 tells us, Christ was cut off AFTER 69th week, that means he was crucified during 70th week, that was 490 years later after Daniel penned. Christ ended daily sacrifices DURING('in the midst of week') at Calvary, he said, "It is finished" - John 19:35. At the same the veil of the temple was tear down from top to bottom(Mark 15:37-38). Obivous, Christ already destroyed temple(John 2:19), because he is now our temple, and the new covenant.

We do not have to wait for the coming 'week' of either 3 1/2 or 7 years of Tribulation Period. Dan. 9:27 already fulfilled at Calvary 2,000 years ago.

Rapture shall be occured after the tribulation according to Matt. 24:29-31; Mark 13:24-27. Not by my own theory, opinion, or logical. I understand what Christ says according Matt. 24:29-31 & Mark 13:24-27. I agree with Christ's words, He tells us, he shall not come till after tribulation. Obivous, we must go through tribulation first before Christ comes. Even, we already see the signs of apostasy everywhere, also, we must see the revealed of Antichrist. He shall persecute against us (Rev. 13:7,10).

Reading Matt. 24:29-31; Mark 13:24-27 are not difficult for you to understand. You have to accept clear teaching from Jesus Christ, what he saying, believe and follow what He saying.

Also, you have to accept Christ tells us, that the resurrection shall be occured at the LAST day - John 6:39,40,44, & 54. John 6:39,40,44, & 54 are not difficult for you to read and understand what Christ saying. You have to accept what He saying.

Cannot you see the signs of apostasy are already happening everywhere right now? Apostle Paul was right. So, the next sign, that we shall see the revealed of Antichrist.

You have to accept what Apostle Paul saying of 2 Thess. 2:1-8, agree and follow what he saying.

2 Thess. 2:1-8 cannot be pretrib coming, because Paul tells, we must see the signs of apostasy and the revealed of Antichrist first, clear, Paul taught posttrib coming of Christ. You have to accept and believe what Paul saying.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[prophecynut]

James

Originally posted by prophecynut:
James, you have three different harvests posted.

2 Thess. 2 is comprised of only those living and dead IN CHRIST when raptured.

There is wheat and tares together in the field during the Church age. The wheat or good seed selected will be TAKEN to be with the Lord in the heavenly kingdom and the weeds LEFT behind to enter the Trib, they are not thrown into the fiery furnace like the weeds will be in Mt. 24-25 when Christ returns in judgment at the Trib's end.

Mt. 13:30 is the judgment of the nations on earth at the Second Coming when the sheep enter the earthly kingdom and the goats are condemned to eternal punishment (Mt. 25:31-46)..

This field is the same world as when the raptured occurred, but missing the Church wheat that was previously gathered into the heavenly barn. At the Second Coming the weeds that survive the Trib will first be collected and burned: then the wheat will be gathered into his earthly barn or kingdom (Mt. 13:30). The Second Coming is the "end of the world" or present age when the weeds/goats will be TAKEN into judgment and the wheat/sheep LEFT behind to enter the earthly kingdom


Rev. 14:15 is Armageddon when the blood flowing out of God's "winepress" will rise as "high as the horses bridles for a distance of 1,600 stadia (v.20)." Or approximately the length of Palestine from north to south, the same as in Jer. 12:12.

All the people harvested in this passage are weeds that die during Armageddon. They are harvested from the same field as the two harvests above, but include only the weeds that fight against Christ when he returns (Rev. 16:14,16; 19:19). The remaining weeds in the whole world still alive at the sheep/goat judgment, after Armageddon, will be the ones gathered and burned as stated in Mt. 13.

Same field of weeds, but harvested at different times for a specific reason according to God's will.

 

[DeafPosttrib]

Prophecynut,

How can you prove to us, there is different times of the harvest?

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[prophecynut]

Originally posted by DeafPosttrib:

Cannot you see the signs of apostasy are already happening everywhere right now? Apostle Paul was right. So, the next sign, that we shall see the revealed of Antichrist.

Actually the next major sign will be the construction of the third temple followed by the AC's revealing.

The NIV has "rebellion" instead of "apostasy," which is better considering the apostasy or rebellion is closely associated with the AC and contextually refers to unbelievers and not believers in the Church. Apostasy spoken of by Paul always referred to false doctrine in the Church, which is becoming more evident in these last days. Rebellion would be opposition to the things of God of which accumulates in the AC.

we must see the signs of apostasy and the revealed of Antichrist first

So True, this seems to throw the wrench in the works when it comes to a pre-trib rapture.

The third temple must be completed before the AC is revealed.

The 7 year covenant must be in place before the third temple can be built.

Minimum estimated time for construction is 6 months.

AC could proclaim to be God anytime up to three years before mid point of the 7 years when the rapture takes place. Most likely though, it will be several weeks or months before the rapture.

Paul told the Thessalonians to look for the AC, and so is the Church to look for him as evidence the day of the Lord is soon to follow.

This passage does not confirm a post-trib rapture, only his revealment before that day begins with the day of Christ and the rapture.

 

[James_Newman]

2 Thessalonians 2:7
For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

Here is your pre-trib rapture, not this 'falling off the earth' business. The apostasy is exactly that, and it is all around us already. The Thessalonians were being told not to worry that the day of the Lord was about to happen because the apostasy and the abomination of desolation would have to come first. The day of Christ that he is referring to is the one he was discussing just before in chapter 1.

2Thes 1
5 Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:
6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

That day is not the rapture, it is the day that Jesus returns to 'recompense' every man. He recompenses the wicked tribulation for troubling the saints, and He recompenses the saints rest, if they are accounted worthy. When? When the Lord Jesus is 'revealed' with his angels from heaven, in flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and obey not the gospel. This is the harvest.

As for the rapture, it says he who lets will be taken out of the way, then the antichrist will be revealed. It does not say this happens on the same episode of Oprah. The tribulation could be much longer than 7 years, but the last 3 1/2 is the 'Great Tribulation.' Where does this 'mid-week' timing for the rapture come from?

 

[DeafPosttrib]

Rapture is same as harvest, you know that.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[prophecynut]

James