The Apostasy

[DeafPosttrib]

HankD,

You ask about 'temple of God'- 2 Thess. 2:4.

Pretrib interpreting verse 4 speaking of Antichrist shall sit in the building of temple in Jerusalem - literally.

I used to interpreting verse 4 literally. Now, I realized, it speaks of spiritual meaning.

I understand 'temple of God' speaks of Church. How do I know? Apostle Paul explained in 1 Cor. 3:16-17 "Know ye not that ye ARE the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy, for the temple of God is holy, which temple YE ARE." Paul tells us, that we are the temple of God, because the Holy Spirit dwells in us, when we asked Christ to forgive us our sins, and received him, Holy Spirit comes into our body.

When Christ was on earth, He told Jews, that He will destroyed that building of temple, and will rise it up in three days- John 2:19. They were not understand what He was talking about. John 2:21 - Christ spoken of His body as temple. When Christ was on the cross, he yelled and said, "It is finished" - John 19:30. At the same the veil of temple tore down from top to bottom - Mark 15:37-38, it shows us, that Christ already ended daily sacrifices, and He fulfilled it. Now He is the temple, that we as high priests have rights to ask Christ to forgive our sins daily 24 hours. We do not going into the building of temple - physical, but we communicate with Jesus Christ in spirit.

Paul teaches us that we are the temple of God - 1 Cor. 3:16:17; & 6:19-20.

About two years ago, I found there is a refer verse of 2 Thess. 2:4, it is refer in Rev. 13:6.

2 Thess. 2:4 tells us, that Antichrist being to be exalting up himself, as he is God. Shows that he blasphemy against God. 'Sitteth in the temple of God'- I understand, it is not speak of physical or literally, it shows the picture that he rules over the temple of God.

Word, 'sitteth' does not alway mean to sit literally, it means to rule over. I find a good example verse speak of 'sitteth' in Rev. 17:9. It says, "And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountians, on which the woman sitteth."

This verse is a symbolic and spiritually meaning.

Some saying, seven heads or seven mountians are represent Rome, which have seven hills. Some saying, they are represent Iraq. Some saying, they are represent Jersualem. Severeal have different opinions or views on their interpreting of seven mountians. I understand the seven heads or mountians are represent seven continents.

When I was a boy, I was in the class at school. I learned from a teacher taught me, continent means a large body of dry land. There are seven continents of the earth:

1. North America
2. South America
3. Africa
4. Europe/Russia/Asia
5. Austriala
6. Antractica(South Pole)
7. Greenland(I consider it is continent)

I understand Rev. 17:9 gives us the picture of a woman sitteth on seven heads or mountians.

Does it mean that a woman sits on a literal throne on literal seven mountians? No, I understand this verse speaks of a woman have power and rule over the seven mountians.

'Woman' being described in Revelation chapter 17, it speaks of wicked spirit system. Woman represents as beast. I understand Revelation chapter 17 gives us the picture of Satan shall have power and to rule over all nations of the world - one world government. I strong consider of Revelation chapter 17 being identify 'New World Order' movement.

Now back to 2 Thess. 2:4. It says, 'sitteth in the temple of God', I understand it speaks of Antichrist shall rule or persecute against Church.

How do I know? I find 2 Thess 2:4 have a refer verse in Rev. 13:6. 2 Thess. 2:4 tells us, Satan shall blasphemy against God, and Church. Same with Rev. 13:6.

Rev. 13:6 tells us, three things that Satan shall blasphemy against: 1. God 2. people dwell in heaven 3. tabernacle.

Will there a literal building of tabernacle somewhere in the wilderness during seven year of Tribulation same as in Moses' day? No. It speaks of spiritually meaning. I understand word, 'tabernacle' is same as temple. It represents God's people. Three things that Satan shall blasphemy against: God, God's people dwell in heaven 3. God's people on earth.

Next verse - 2 Thess. 2:5 says, "Remember ye not, that, when I WAS YET WITH YOU, I TOLD YOU THESE THINGS?" Where's a refer verse of 2 Thess. 2:5? I found there is a refer verse of 2 Thess 2:4 in 1 Thess. 3:4 says, "For verily, WHEN WE WERE WITH YOU, WE TOLD YOUBEFORE that we SHOULD SUFFER TRIBULATION, even as it came to pass, and YE KNOW(find refer of 2 Thess. 2:6)."

I understand 2 Thess. 2:4-5, Paul tells us, that Satan shall persecute against Church, earlier as Paul already told them - first epistle.

I find refer of 2 Thess. 2:4-5 with Rev. 13:6-7. Rev. 13:6-7 tell us, Satan shall be blasphemy against God, God's people in heaven, and God's people on earth, and he shall persecute against Church ("war with the saints").

Obivous, 2 Thess. 2:1-5 tell us, our gathering together/coming of the Lord/day of Christ shall NOT come till we must see three things come to passed first-apostasy, revealed of Satan, persecution. Clear, Bible teaches that we must go through tribulations and persecutions first before Christ comes- as what Paul told them of 2 Thess. 1:3-7.

What about Rev. 11:1 -'temple of God'? Rev. 11:1 does not take it into literally or physical as building of temple. Many teaching on Rev. 11:1 saying there will be a building of temple in Jerusalem in seven year of Tribulation Period. They misinterpreting what Rev. 11:1-2 actual saying.

Rev. 11:1-2 give us a picture of temple of God, it speaks of the temple of God is growing without measurement, as Christ is currently built his Church(Matt. 16:18).

I understand Rev. 11:2 speaks of the temple of God shall be tread (persecute) by Gentiles. Word, 'Gentiles' represent heathens or unbelievers as enemies well. Rev. 11:2 tells us, that the world persecute against Church.

Obivous, Rev. 11:2; & Rev. 13:6-7 tell us, that Satan shall persecute against us as Christians.

Conclusion: Apostle Paul tells us, Christ shall not come till we must see apostasy, revealed of Satan, persecutions in the context of 2 Thess. 2:1-8, it cannot be pretrib coming of Christ, we must go through tribulatons first before Christ comes - Matt. 24:29-31; Acts 14:22; etc.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[carlaimpinge]

Ed,

Your nevertheless about the temple is nice historical "trivia" but it has nothing to do with bible statements. I said the Lord went to Zerubbabel's temple. I certainly KNOW the temple will be rebuilt as my posts reflect.

No, your biblical reference in Rev.11 IS NOT the first part of the week, but the LATTER PART when the CITY is trod under foot 42 months. (Luke 21) That's explictly stated. The FIRST PART is not.
Boo boo, Ed.

No, my statements are not contradictory, but yours certainly are non-biblical doubletalk.

Quote:

Right after the pretribulation Period (first half) rapature/resurrection
the Antichrist is revealed (folks know who he is, but he
doesn't have absolute power yet).

Unquote.

Give us some scripture.

AGAIN you use non-biblical OR scriptural terms.

You're SURMISING a theory without prooftext. The MIDDLE OF THE TRIBULATION is a "false term".

Paul's not speaking of the MIDDLE OF THE TRIBULATION. He's speaking of the REVELATION of the man of sin after the working of Satan AT THE MIDST OF THE WEEK.

The great tribulation STARTS there, according to the Lord Jesus Christ WHO COINED the term, which refers to tribulation.

In Christ Jesus,
Carl

 

[DeafPosttrib]

Carl,

Often, you use term -'midweek rapture'.

I would like you to explain more clarify to us, why you saying it is 'midweek' rapture.

Does that mean you believe there shall be only three and half of tribulation period right after rapture of the church? I mean you believe there are 3 1/2 years apart between rapture and second coming?

Secondly, you have to show us verses to prove, why you believe 'midweek' rapture.

Thirdly, please prove to us, why you believe there will be the last 3 1/2 years of Rev. 11:2.

Fourthly, what Daniel 9:24-27 - 'week' mean to you?

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[carlaimpinge]

The gathering is CONNECTED to the revelation of the man of sin, according to Paul. (2 Thess.2:3) That revelation occurs in the midst of Daniel's week (Dan.9,11, 2 Thess.2:4), due to the working of Satan. The mystery of iniquity concerns Satan's INCARNATION as a MAN, which is found in Rev.12,13,17. Paul REFERENCES Isaiah 14. Those verses IDENTIFY the time as the midst of Daniel's week when Satan is cast down from heaven to EMPOWER the beast. Michael the archangel appears at the gathering (1 Thess.4),BEFORE the day of the Lord, which is the BEGINNING of the great tribulation. (Dan.12) That's the midst of the week from Daniel, according to the Lord Jesus Christ, who coined the term. The midst of the week is all over the text of 2 Thess.2 like a 5 gallon can of spilled paint. The ONLY biblical, eschatological TIME of tribulation starts at the midst of the week. My posts on this board and others have always stated these facts, which are repeatedly ignored, denied, and distorted by preweek, post-trib, and prewrath rapturists.

 

[DeafPosttrib]

Carl,

I want to make more clarify, what you really believe.

I ask you again one more question.

What 'WEEK' mean to you?

How do you know we will be rapture at MIDweek?

I am not playing question with you. I am serious want to know why do you believe rapture will be occur at 'midweek'.

It is very, very rare for me to hear pretrib Christians believe in rapture at 'midweek'.

'Midweek' rapture sounds to me it looks like midtrib rapture? HUH?

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[DeafPosttrib]

Carl,

I would like to add one more question for you.

Why not rapture at beginning of the week?

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[HankD]

Thank you Ed, Carl and DeafPosttrib,

Very interesting.

The diversity is amazing.


HankD

 

[carlaimpinge]

Hank,

You're welcome. It seems as if others have a time reading the posts which explain the repeated questions asked redundantly.

In Christ Jesus,
Carl

 

[Ed Edwards]

Carlaimpinge: "The gathering is CONNECTED to the revelation of
the man of sin, according to Paul. (2 Thess.2:3) "

Amen, Brother Carlaimpinge.
The gathering is followed by the revelation of
the man of sin.

Carlaimpinge: "That revelation occurs in the midst
of Daniel's week (Dan.9,11, 2 Thess.2:4), due
to the working of Satan."

I respectfully disagree.
The revelation means when folks know who he is.
The mid-week event is the Abomination of Desolation (AOD)
when the Antichrist declares that he is God and
profains the Jewish Temple in Jerusalem.

-----------------------
Pretrib pre-mill outline of time forward:

0. church age continues <-- you are here
1. rapture/resurrection
2. Tribulation time
3. Second Advent of Jesus event
4. literal MK=millinnial kingdom
5. new heaven & new earth

Postrib pre-mill outline:

0. church age continues <-- you are here
2. Tribulation time
1.3. Second Advent of Jesus event
(this is one event with the rapture/resurrection)
4. literal MK=millinnial kingdom
5. new heaven & new earth

Postrib a-mill outline:

0. church age continues - is the same as: <-- you are here
2. Tribulation time - is the same as: <-- you are here
4. spiritual MK=millinnial kingdom <-- you are here
1.3. Second Advent of Jesus event
(this is one event with the rapture/resurrection)
5. new heaven & new earth

Peterist a-mill outline:

0. church age continues <-- you are here
1. rapture/resurrection <done happened
2. Tribulation time <-- or maybe you are here
3. Second Advent of Jesus event <done happend
4. spiritual MK=millinnial kingdom <done happened
5. new heaven & new earth <-- or maybe you are here

Ed recommends the pretrib pre-mill
view as aligning most nearly with Holy Scripture.
Ed recommends:
get Rapture Ready!
Stay Rapture Ready!


Expanded pretrib timeline:

0. church age continues

1. rapture/resurrection

2. The 7-year Tribulation Period

2a. Starting events
2a1. The seven year AC/Israel treaty
2a2. The revelation of the AC

2b. the first half (3.5years) - the Tribulation period
(these items are not necessarily in time sequence)

2b1. The Seal Judgments (Revelation 6)
2b2. Rise of the Antichrist
2b3. Ten nation confederacy (Daniel 2:42-44;
---- Daniel 7:7,24; Rev 12:3; Rev 17:12,16)
2b4. The ministry of Elijah (Rev 11:3, Malachi 4:5,6)
2b5. Ministry of the 144,000 Israeli (Rev 7)
2b6. The Trumpet judgements/wrath (Rev 8-9)
2b7. The false church (ecclesiastical Babylon)
----- (Revelation 17:1-6)

2c. the mid-tribulation (mid-week) events
(these items are not necessarily in time sequence)

2c1. The Little Scroll (Rev 10)
2c2. AC killed (Rev 13:3)
2c3. Satan cast out of heaven (Rev 12:7,9)
2c4. Resurrection of AC (Rev 13:3,4)
2c5. 3 kings killed, 7 submit to AC
2c6. destruction by AC of false church (Rev 7:16)
2c7. Death/resurrection of two witnesses
2c8. Worship of the AC starts (Rev 13:3,4,8)
2c9. Rise of the False Prophet (Rev 13:11-15)
2c10. MOB=mark of the beast (Rev 13:16-18)
2c11. 7-year covenant broken (Isaiah 28:18; Daniel 11:41)
2c12. AOD=abomination of Desolation
----- (Daniel 9:27; Matthew 24:15,16; 2 Thess 2:4)
2c13. Persecution of the Jews begins
----- (Rev 12:1-6)

2d. the second half (3.5years) - the Great Tribulation period
(these items are not necessarily in time sequence)

2d1. the Bowl Judgments/wrath (Rev 16)
2d2. protection of the Jewish Remnant
---- (Micah 2:12; Matthew 24:16; Revelation 12:6,14)
2d3. Armageddon (these items are in time sequence):

2d3a. - assembling the allies of AC
------- (Rev 16:12-16)
2d3b. - destruction of Babylon
------- (Isaiah 13; Jeremiah 50-51; Revelation 18)
2d3c. - Fall of Jerusalem
------- (Micah 4:11-5:1; Zachariah 12:1-9; 14:1,2)
2d3d. - Armies of AC at Bozrah (Jeremiah 49:13,14)
2d3e. - Conversion of Israel complete
------- (Zechariah 12:10; Romans 11:25-27)

(2e the end of the Trib, which is the Second Advent
---- of Jesus to defeat the AC and set up the MK)

3. Second Advent of Jesus event
3a. postrib gathering and resurrection of the trib saints
3b. antichrist and false prophet are cast alive into the Lake of Fire
- 19:20-22!
3c. The Judgment of the Nations= Matthew 25:31-46

4. literal MK=millinnial kingdom

5. Satan loosed for a little season to deceive the Nations - Revelation 20:7-8!

6. The final battle of God and Magog! - Revelation 20:8-9!

7. Satan cast into the lake of Fire. - Revelation 20:10!

8. The Great White Throne of Judgment! - Revelation 20:11-15!

9.new heaven & new earth - 2 Peter 3:10

10. The Eternal Kingdom! The New Heavens and New Earth
and the New Jerusalem! - Revelation 21:1-3!

 

[carlaimpinge]

Ed,

You just gave a PRIVATE INTERPRETATION on the word revelation, which is the standard LeHaye line of falsehood. (See The Rapture/ Chart opposite page 81)

Quote:

I respectfully disagree.
The revelation means when folks know who he is.
The mid-week event is the Abomination of Desolation (AOD)
when the Antichrist declares that he is God and
profains the Jewish Temple in Jerusalem.

Unquote.

What you think the revelation means is not what we want. We want the TRUTH of the text.

The REVELATION of the man of sin in the context of 2 Thess.2 occurs at the MIDST OF DANIEL'S week for the EVENT proclaimed by Paul IDENTIFYING his revelation is him SITTING in the temple of God. That's the MIDST of the week, not the BEGINNING.

It is "not" when people know who he is, whatever NONSENSE that is. Who knows what? Where's the verses of prooftext for that incoherent statement?

Quote:

2a2. The revelation of the AC

Unquote.

The REVELATION concerns the MYSTERY OF INIQUITY, which is SATAN incarnate within the man himself. (Isaiah 14) There is a BODY OF A DEAD MAN in the temple WHO IS NOW ALIVE stating that he is God!Again, that's the MIDST of the week, when Satan is cast down. (Rev.12-13)

This passage is HERESY HIGHWAY which causes many carwrecks with fatalities among "bible students".

Call the ambulance.

In Christ Jesus,
Carl

[ December 04, 2004, 08:43 PM: Message edited by: carlaimpinge ]

 

[carlaimpinge]

2 Thessalonians 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

The revelation concerns that Wicked, who appears at least 42 months BEFORE the Lord comes back and DESTROYS him! (Rev.13, 19)

The gathering REFERS to his revelation, while the coming REFERS to his destruction in 2 Thess.2.

 

[Ed Edwards]

Carlaimpinge (bolding by ed, Caps by Carl):
"You just gave a PRIVATE INTERPRETATION on the
word revelation, which is the standard LeHaye
line of falsehood."

Sorry, "You (ed)" + "LeHaye" contradicts
"PRIVATE INTERPRETATION". You have made a self
contradictory statement.


Carlaimpinge: "(See The Rapture/ Chart opposite page 81)"

I don't have a LeHaye book called "The Rapture".

Carlaimpinge: "What you think the revelation means is not
what we want. We want the TRUTH of the text."

What i said is the meaning of "revelation" is four of the
six normal meanings of "revelation" and does not contradict
with the other two meanings. What dictionary did you find
"revelation = commiting the Abomination of Desolation"?
I'd like to see that dicitionary, it is unlike any i've seen.

Which of these mid-week crisis events is the "revelation"?

2c. the mid-tribulation (mid-week) events
(these items are not necessarily in time sequence)

2c1. The Little Scroll (Rev 10)
2c2. AC killed (Rev 13:3)
2c3. Satan cast out of heaven (Rev 12:7,9)
2c4. Resurrection of AC (Rev 13:3,4)
2c5. 3 kings killed, 7 submit to AC
2c6. destruction by AC of false church (Rev 7:16)
2c7. Death/resurrection of two witnesses
2c8. Worship of the AC starts (Rev 13:3,4,8)
2c9. Rise of the False Prophet (Rev 13:11-15)
2c10. MOB=mark of the beast (Rev 13:16-18)
2c11. 7-year covenant broken (Isaiah 28:18; Daniel 11:41)
2c12. AOD=abomination of Desolation
----- (Daniel 9:27; Matthew 24:15,16; 2 Thess 2:4)
2c13. Persecution of the Jews begins
----- (Rev 12:1-6)

-- item edited only to correct spelling

 

[carlaimpinge]

Ed,

I'm not dazzled by your doubletalk.

You teach the same thing as LeHaye on the REVELATION of the man of sin. (BEGINNING of the week.) You SHOULD have the book. It will show you YOUR OWN false teaching IN PRINT.

The revealing of 2 Thess.2 is not found in any dictionary. It is found in Thessalonians DEFINED by Paul through the words of the Holy Spirit in the Holy Scriptures through Isaiah. He connected it to the mystery of iniquity which is confirmed by John.

Don't circumvent your statements of foolishness AFTER they have been pointed out. There is no reference to REVELATION at the BEGINNING of Daniel's week in 2 Thess.2. There is no CORROBORATION for it anywhere else biblically. It is ONLY at the midst WHEN Satan is cast down. I didn't need Walvoord, Stam, Bullinger, or the boys at Dallas (Bible Knowledge Commentary) to tell me that, although they believe as myself. I had Paul. You missed his teaching, trying to put forth your belief.

By the way, his revelation IS NOT the abomination of desolation. That is an IMAGE which STANDS, while HE himself SITS. (Matt.24, 2 Thess.2, Rev.13)

Missed it again.

You really should stop using those nonbiblical terms when trying to teach the Bible. (midtribulation) No such thing, subject, idea, phrase, or term.

In Christ Jesus,
Carl

[ December 04, 2004, 10:22 PM: Message edited by: carlaimpinge ]

 

[Ed Edwards]

You speak with riddles.

 

[Ed Edwards]

Oh, I see how you got confused,
you are talking "revealed" in verse 6.
I've been talking "revealed" in verse 3.
Come to think of it, they are the
same pre-trib. Don't let God who knows
the beginning from the end get you
confused.

2 Thes 2:14 (HCSB):
He called you to this through our gospel,
so that you might obtain the glory
of our Lord Jesus Christ.

You, Brother Carlaimpinge, shall get your
glory in the pretribulation raputre/resurrection!

 

[carlaimpinge]

Ed,

Don't be silly. I speak PLAIN. The Holy Bible tied your lips, not me.

You have used false terms, neither biblical NOR scriptural.

You have circumvented EVERY POINT in my posts which contradicts your false teaching of revelation at the BEGINNING of the week.

You have given no biblical verification for your belief of revelation at that time. It is imagined.

I am a pretribulation rapturist. The ONLY ESCHATOLOGICAL TRIBULATION found in the Holy Bible BEGINS at the midst of the week, which was coined by the Lord Jesus Christ. (Matt.24) It is called the WRATH TO COME by Paul, John the Baptist, Matthew, and Luke which refers to the TRIBULATION. (Matt.3,24, Luke 3, 21, 1 Thess.1,5)

There's certainly no confusion with myself, brother. That's all yours. The revealing of verse 3, matches that of verse 6 and 8. That REVELATION is midweek which is connected to the GATHERING.

Good evening.

In Christ Jesus,
Carl

 

[Ed Edwards]

You have been obtuse and unclear.

What scripture in Isiaih?
The tribulation you missed is bolded
below:
---------------------------------------------
The Five Tribulations
of the Holy Bible
Contrasted and compared
by ed

The following terms are used in the Holy Bible to denote
tribulation: tribulation, distress, afliction, trouble

1. tribulation due to the human condition
WHO: all the sons and daughters of Adam & Eve
WHAT: heartaches, pains, troubles, distresses, disappointements,
affliction, trouble, ordeal, suffering, wretchedness,
misfortune, worry, care, hardship, agony,
anguish, torment, adversity,
travail of a woman giving birth, disease, cancer,
famine, plague, fatigue, depression, etc.
WHEN: From Adam's explusion from the Garden of Eden
to the day a new heaven & new earth is created by
God, AKA: time as opposed to eternity
WHERE: worldwide
WHY: God only knows why, it is just the way things are,
maybe it has to do with the fall of man in the Garden of Eden?

2. tribulation of Christian Martyrdom
WHO: those Christians chosen by the Holy Spirit for special honor
WHAT: persecution by non-Christians: Pagans, athiests, and
even people who call themselves "Christian" but aren't
WHEN: 33AD to the start of the millinnial kingdom of Jesus
WHERE: worldwide
WHY: many are called to follow Jesus;
few are chosen to the honor of the spiritual
gift of martyrdom

3. tribulation of the Jews scattered among the Gentiles
WHO: Yisrael dispersed among the goy
WHAT: persecution by non-Christians: Pagans, athiests, and
usually people who call themselves "Christian" but aren't
WHEN: during the time of the Gentiles
(from Mount Calvary to Mount Olivet)
WHERE: worldwide
WHY: punishment for rejecting Messiah Jesus

4. "The Tribulation period" of those ruled by the Antichrist
WHO: citizens of the world
WHAT: a fate worse than death (Rev 6:15-17, Rev 9:6)
WHEN: during the 70th week of Daniel (first half)
WHERE: worldwide
WHY: punishment for rejecting Lord Jesus

5. "The Great Tribulation period" of those ruled by the Antrichrist
WHO: people who take the mark of the beast
WHAT: the wrath of God
WHEN: during the 70th week of Daniel (last half)
WHERE: worldwide
WHY: punishment for rejecting Lord Jesus

Here are the names/descriptions of the Tribulation
Period found in the O.T.:

The tribulation in Deut 4:30
the day of Israel's calamity in Deut 32:35, Obadiah 1:12-14
the indignation in Isaiah 26:20, Daniel 11:36
the overflowing scourge in Isaiah 28:15,18
The Lord's strange work in Isaiah 28:21
The year of recompence in Isaiah 34:8
The day of vengeance in Isaiah 34:8, 35:4, 61:2
The time of Jacob's Trouble in Jeremiah 30:7
The day of darkness in Joel 2:2, Amos 5:18, 20; Zephaniah 1:15
See also Zephaniah 1:15-16.:

 

[OldRegular]

Since the topic of discussion here is “The Apostasy” I thought I would belatedly present my views. May I first say that apostasy has always been with us. I believe that it will just get worse as the Return of Jesus Christ approaches. I realize that this is a long essay and some may not want to wade through it, however, may I say that the quote from Hermon Hoeksema’s commentary on Revel;ation, presented at the end, is worth reading.

In the Book of Revelation the Apostle John presents two women in graphic and profound contrast. Both of these women are identified as cities and each is shown to have a significant impact on the conflict between good and evil in world history. In Revelation, Chapter 12 we were introduced to the first woman, a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars [Revelation 12:1, KJV]. I believe that this woman represents spiritual Israel of the Old Testament and the Church of the New Testament. She is the Bride of Jesus Christ, the total number of the elect, those who are redeemed to God through the sacrificial death of Jesus Christ. She is also identified as a city, the New Jerusalem. The Apostle Paul speaks of the Church as the Bride in 2 Corinthians 11:2. The Apostle John describes the Bride of Jesus Christ as a city, the New Jerusalem, in Revelation 21:2.

In Revelation Chapter 17 we are introduced to a second woman, the great whore [Revelation 17:1], stark contrast to the bride of Jesus Christ, a chaste virgin. This woman is not only a harlot with whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, she is the Mother of Harlots and Abominations of the earth. [It must be understood that the “fornication” under consideration in this passage is spiritual in nature, not sexual.] This woman, this harlot, is introduced briefly in Chapter 11 as the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified [Revelation 11:8]. In Chapters 14 and again in Chapter 16 we see the judgment of God on this woman.

In light of the sharp contrast presented between these two women we can only conclude that since the first woman represents the Church, the bride of Jesus Christ, the second must represent the counterfeit or apostate church, the bride of the antichrist. The use of the term ‘apostate church’ does not mean that those who constitute this group have ever been one with Jesus Christ and His Church, that is, truly saved and then ‘fallen away’ or lost that salvation. Rather, they were never one with Jesus Christ. Those who are truly saved, those whom God has accepted in the Beloved [Ephesians 1:6], will never fall away [John 6:37-40].

The true Church, the Bride of Jesus Christ, is the total number of the redeemed. This community of the redeemed is manifested in the world through each local body of believers, the local churches. The question now becomes: What constitutes an apostate church? This question can be answered more easily if we determine what constitutes a true, an apostolic, local church. [Because of the development of denominational structure the term ‘local’ church may include more than one group.]

In determining what constitutes a true apostolic church it must understand that, since a church is composed of fallible people, it is unlikely that such a church exists in a perfect sense. In the letters to the seven churches of Asia only two, Smyrna and Philadelphia, were without fault. It is reasonable to conclude that these two churches represent the ideal local church. It is said of the church at Smyrna:

Revelation 2:9, KJV
9. I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) ...

and of the church at Philadelphia:

Revelation 3:8, KJV
8. I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name.

Perhaps the most significant aspect of the testimony about these churches is the statement that the church at Philadelphia had kept the word of Jesus Christ and had not denied His name. We can conclude that the churches at Philadelphia and Smyrna are perhaps the best examples of true apostolic churches.

1. A true local church must recognize and teach that salvation is not by works but is accomplished completely through the atoning sacrifice of Jesus Christ, the Incarnate God. [John 3:16; 1 Peter 1:18,19; Philippians 2:6-8]

2. A true local church must recognize and teach that salvation is by grace alone, through faith, and is completely the work of God. [Ephesians 2:1-8; Romans 8:28-30]

3. A true local church must recognize and teach that Jesus Christ is the only mediator between God and Man and that reconciliation to God is through Jesus Christ alone. [1 Timothy 2:5; Acts 4:12]

4. A true local church should include only regenerate people within its membership. [Acts 2:41; Acts 2:47]

However, it is inevitable that within any congregation there will be members who are not truly regenerate - this is certainly true of those groups that practice infant Baptism or those groups that believe in Baptismal regeneration. Furthermore, there may be those within the local body whose lifestyle is not consistent with a regenerate spirit and brings reproach upon the Body of Jesus Christ It is, therefore, mandatory that an apostolic church:

a. Faithfully preach the whole counsel of God.
b. Exercise scriptural discipline within the church.

5. A true local church must recognize and submit to the Lordship of Jesus Christ and only to the Lordship of Jesus Christ.

There is currently a popular idea, particularly in dispensational circles, that a person can accept Jesus Christ as Saviour and yet reject Him as Lord. In his books, The Gospel According to Jesus and Ashamed of the Gospel, John F MacArthur, himself a dispensationalist, clearly refutes such a doctrine as unscriptural. If Jesus Christ is not Lord He is Not Saviour. [Colossians 1:18; Ephesians 5:24; Luke 6:46]

6. A true local church must submit to the authority of the Holy Scripture. [2 Timothy 3:16; Psalms 119:105; Romans 1:16; Ephesians 6:17]

7. A true local church must maintain separation from the world and its institutions.

Scripture does not teach that the Saints of God or the church are to withdraw from [or go out of] the world otherwise how would they be a witness to the world. However, they are to keep themselves separate from the world. That is true believers are not to become entangled in the sins of the world, neither is the church to bring the ways of the world into the church or ally itself with the world systems. [John 15:19; John 17:15-17; 2 Corinthians 6:14-18; Romans 12:1,2]

Hermon Hoeksema in his commentary on the Book of Revelation [Behold He Cometh, page 580ff] presents a description of the apostate church, Babylon, shows the deceptive nature of its appearance, and then shows the marks of its apostasy, as follows:

“The woman, we must remember, in her outward appearance is the instituted church of Christ on earth. Outwardly she is nothing but the church in her entire appearance in the world. In every respect she looks like the true church externally. She calls herself church of Christ. She has her church edifices, just as the true church. In those sanctuaries the congregation gathers, at least on every sabbath, for worship. As you enter, you find that on the pulpit lies the Word of God, the Scriptures, just as it is in the true church. There is no difference. Behind the pulpit stands the regularly ordained minister of the Word. Regardless now of what use there is made of that Bible on the pulpit, regardless too of how the minister accomplishes his task of administering the Word, fact is that outwardly there is no difference. The Bible on the pulpit and the minister of that Bible behind it, pretending to administer the Word of God to the congregation, and that congregation too, in outward appearance look like the true church. They sing and pray, confess, and listen to the preaching of the Word. And as they go, they receive the benediction in the name of God. Regardless, again, of the nature of their worship, they evidently gather for the worship of God in their sanctuary. Yea, you will find that not only the Word but also the sacraments are administered. The members of the church are baptized; and occasionally they gather around the table of communion solemnly to celebrate the supper of the Lord. We may have nevertheless, that the sacraments as well as the Word are administered, just as well as in the true church of Christ. In a word, the harlot woman represents the church, the church of Christ, with the Word and the sacraments, as she comes to manifestation here upon earth. The woman is the church as we know her. Just as well as any real harlot outwardly looks just like any other woman, so also does the harlot-church look like the true church of Christ on earth in her entire appearance. ......

....... And the church becomes the harlot, the apostate church, when she becomes of one mind with the beast. Negatively, she will begin by admitting that the blood of Christ is not necessary for the establishment of the kingdom of God. She will deny that the Holy Spirit only can truly make children of the kingdom. She will abandon the name of Jesus and the Word of God, and seek her hope in this dispensation and in this world. Positively, she will help in forming that great state for which also the world-power strives. She will offer her full services to the state, give her most hearty support to any movement that comes along, and be busy the things of this world instead of in the things of the eternal kingdom Christ. Concretely speaking, she will no more preach on sin and total depravity. She will no more teach the necessity of personal regeneration and the atoning blood of Christ, but be full of messages which pertain to this world. She will preach on the great topics of war and peace, on the betterment of humanity through all kinds of legislation, on prohibition and woman suffrage, on hygiene and health ordinances, on wages and labor, on business and industry. And she will try to picture before minds of her members how through all these things the great and glorious kingdom of God shall come in the earth. Thus she has abandoned her true, her spiritual, her eternal character, and become the great harlot.”

 

[carlaimpinge]

Ed,

Obtuse and unclear? Brother, if you couldn't read my last post, you need to make your reservation at Sylvan learning center.

You've been stuck by the sword of the Spirit, and you're BLEEDING profusely.

You should go back and READ my posts IF you're going to dispute what I state. (Isaiah 14) Refers to the incarnation of Satan AS A MAN at his FALL. (See Rev.12-13) MIDST OF THE WEEK.

Don't try to "dazzle" for I'm no dummy.

We're ONLY talking of the tribulation which concerns DANIEL'S WEEK, which is found given by the Lord Jesus Christ, STARTING at the midst. I didn't miss a single reference to tribulation, which is GIVEN in the Holy Bible concerning that fact.

Don't be obtuse and unclear, brother, for you didn't IDENTIFY which one I missed. Nor did you identify EACH with the verses from which you define them. You produced incomplete work.

Tribulation AS A PERIOD OF TIME relates to Israel in it's FIRST MENTION. It is PROPHETICAL in the latter days.

Deuteronomy 4:30 When thou art in tribulation, and all these things are come upon thee, even in the latter days, if thou turn to the LORD thy God, and shalt be obedient unto his voice;

Judges 10:14 Go and cry unto the gods which ye have chosen; let them deliver you in the time of your tribulation.

Tribulation is PROPHETICAl according to the Lord Jesus IDENTIFYING a period of time, which BEGINS at the midst of Daniel's week.

Matthew 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

Mark 13:24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,

Your preweek rapture teaching is phony foolishness, along with a TRIBULATION of 7 years. You have no verses of prooftext for it.

In Christ Jesus,
Carl

 

[Ed Edwards]

1 Peter 1:18-21 (HCSB):

For you know that you were redeemed from your empty way
of life inherited from the fathers, not with perishable things,
like silver or gold,
19 but with the precious blood of Christ, like that of
a lamb without defect or blemish.
20 He was destined before the foundation of the world,
but was revealed at the end of the times for you
21 who through Him are believers in God, who raised Him
from the dead and gave Him glory, so that your faith
and hope are in God.

When was Jesus revealed?
At the beginning of His ministry?
At His death on the Cross?
At the Resurrection?