The Apostasy

[DeafPosttrib]

Dr. Bob,

I do not agree with you on your interpreting of 2 Thess. 2:1-3.

Christians of Thessalocia were not discuss about tribulation. They already know that they are appointed for tribulations, because Paul taught them earlier in 1 Thess. 3:3-4. They were rumour about Christ's coming, they thought Christ might come anytime soon, or already arrived. Paul told them, day(our gathering together/coming of our Lord Jesus Christ/day of Christ shall NOT come till we shall see two things to come to passed first - apostasy and revealed of Antichrist.

Reading 2 Thess. 2:1-3 is NOT difficult for you to understand?!

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[Dr. Bob]

Originally posted by DeafPosttrib:
Dr. Bob, I do not agree with you on your interpreting of 2 Thess. 2:1-3.

Somehow with the moniker of Deaf POST TRIB I didn't expect you to "Amen" Ed's approach. There is still much to discuss on it; I simply said I really liked it.

And as discussed earlier, "apostasia" does NOT mean "falling away". That is how some English translate it on occasion (and it seems valid). But it also means "taking away" or "moving away" just as correctly.

So could be a very easy term to describe what WE think of as "apostasy" [leaving the truth] OR the "catching away" of the Bride.

And I'm 'Hearing PRE-TRIB' Bob!

 

[DeafPosttrib]

Dr. Bob,

Notice 1 Thess. 4:17 says, 'caught UP'. Up means opposite of down.

Same with word, 'fall' is opposite of rise or ascend.

Word, 'falling away' does not support the idea meaning of rapture.

Same with Acts 21:21 tells us, Gentiles forsaked Moses' teaching. That means, they depart from Moses' teaching, never return back again.

There is an illustration for 'falling away'. During autumn time, there is a windy day, the leaves are falling away from tree, as they continue falling away down, down toward the ground, never ascend back to the same place where it belong to the same tree again. That what 'falling away' actual means.

You cannot saying two same words of rapture in same verse of 2 Thess 2:3. Also, you did not follow the Hermenutic Rule - Interpreting in contextually. I understand 'day shall not come' of 2 Thess 3 speaks of Christ's coming, 'day' of verse 3 is context with verse 1 and 2 speak of our gathering together/coming of our Lord Jesus Christ/day of Christ.

We cannot twisting words as what we interpreting verses, not what Apostle Paul actual saying. We let Scripture interpreting Scripture. That is hermenutic rule.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[carlaimpinge]

The context concerns false teaching and deception unto CORRECT DOCTRINE. Falling away is definitely apostasy FROM that which was heard in WORD, EPISTLE, and TRADITION from Paul. (2 Thess.2:17)

It's no more a reference to the rapture than to the Rugrats flying.

The gathering comes BETWEEN the falling away and revelation of the man of sin, for BOTH are necessary unto it. It could have occurred in Paul's day, as it NOW CAN in yours.

 

[DeafPosttrib]

Carl,

Yes, it was true that some Christians already depart from Paul's teaching. But, not just limited for Paul's doctrine only, also, many Christians already depart from the truth of God's Word(from Genesis to Revelation) throughout many Centuries to today.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[carlaimpinge]

Paul's speaking of HIS TEACHINGS to the Thessalonians. Not anyone elses. (2 Thess.2:15-17, 1 Thess.1:5-10, 2:1-2, 3:2, 4:1-2, 15-18, 5:12-13)

 

[Craigbythesea]

So could be a very easy term to describe what WE think of as "apostasy" [leaving the truth] OR the "catching away" of the Bride.

2 Thess. 2:3. Let no one deceive you in any way. For unless the apostasy comes first and the lawless one is revealed, the one doomed to perdition, (NASB, 1995)

Greek: Apostasia

When used in a political sense in the LXX this word means “rebel.”

1 Esr. 2:23. and that the Jews were rebels and kept setting up blockades in it from of old. That is why this city was laid waste. (NRSV)

When used in a religious sense in the LXX this word means “rebel or transgressor” against God and His Law,

2 Macc 5:8. Finally he met a miserable end. Accused Cn: Gk [Imprisoned] before Aretas the ruler of the Arabs, fleeing from city to city, pursued by everyone, hated as a rebel against the laws, and abhorred as the executioner of his country and his compatriots, he was cast ashore in Egypt. (NRSV)

2 Macc 5:8. At length he met a miserable end. Called to account before Aretas, king of the Arabs, he fled from city to city, hunted by all men, hated as a transgressor of the laws, abhorred as the butcher of his country and his countrymen. After being driven into Egypt, (NAB)

Josh. 22:22. "The Mighty One, God, the LORD, the Mighty One, God, the LORD! He knows, and may Israel itself know. If it was in rebellion, or if in an unfaithful act against the LORD do not save us this day! (NASB, 1995)

Josh. 22:22. "The Lord, God of gods! The Lord, God of gods! He knows; and let Israel itself know! If it was in rebellion or in breach of faith toward the Lord, do not spare us today (NRSV)

Josh. 22:22. The LORD, the God of gods, knows and Israel shall know. If now we have acted out of rebellion or treachery against the LORD, our God, (NAB)

2 Chronicles 29:19 "Moreover, all the utensils which King Ahaz had discarded during his reign in his unfaithfulness, we have prepared and consecrated; and behold, they are before the altar of the LORD." (NASB, 1995)

2 Chronicles 29:19 All the utensils that King Ahaz repudiated during his reign when he was faithless, we have made ready and sanctified; see, they are in front of the altar of the Lord." (NRSV)

2 Chron. 29:19. All the articles which King Ahaz during his reign had thrown away because of his apostasy, we have restored and consecrated, and they are now before the LORD's altar." (NAB)

In Acts 21 it is used very much like it is used in 2 Macc.

Acts 21:21. and they have been told about you, that you are teaching all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake (Greek = apostasian ) Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children nor to walk according to the customs. (NASB, 1995)

In 2 Thess. 2:3 “a Jewish tradition is adopted which speaks of complete apostasy from God and His Torah shortly before the appearance of the Messiah. This is applied to the apostasy of Christians from their faith to error and unrighteousness v. 11 f.) in the last days (Mt. 24:11 f.).” (Heinrich Schlier, TDNT, vol. 1, p. 513).

Matt. 24:9. "Then they will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name.
10. "At that time many will fall away and will betray one another and hate one another.
11. "Many false prophets will arise and will mislead many.
12. "Because lawlessness is increased, most people's love will grow cold.
13. "But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved.

And the BAGD lexicon agrees, “ rebellion, abandonment in relig. sense, apostasy ”

The highly imaginative and incorrect interpretations of the Greek word Apostasia found in some of the posts above (for example, "catching away" of the Bride) are not based upon either the Bible or the Apocrypha, nor upon other ancient writings (for these see the BAGD lexicon), but upon hand-me-down ignorance.

This is an important topic; let’s stick to the facts and abandon all silliness!

 

[Ed Edwards]

Ok, let me see if i got it straight.

The church will go into such an apostasy
that this will enable the bringing forth of the
man of sin: the personalization of
apostasy.

I'll stick with the "daparture" of the Geneva Bible

I hope Bro. DeafPosttrib never gets his
camera upsidedown. He will figure out
how falling down from the earth into
the arms of Jesus is JUST LIKE rising
from the earth into the arms of Jesus.

 

[Craigbythesea]

I'll stick with the "daparture" of the Geneva Bible

The translators of the Geneva Bible made the very same error that Kenneth S Wuest made in his 1961 translation of 1 Thess. 2:3,

3. Do not begin to allow anyone to lead you astray in any way, because that day shall not come except the aforementioned departure [of the Church to heaven] comes first and the man of the lawlessness is disclosed [in his proper identity], the son of perdition,

Compare this with the NASB, 1995,

3. Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,

And yes, the words in brackets appear just as they appear in brackets in Wuest’s The New Testament, An Expanded Translation. I did not add them.

So, where did the translators of the Geneva Bible and Kenneth Wuest go wrong? The answer is very obvious to anyone who is familiar with the Greek text of the New Testament. They based their translation of the noun Apostasia on the cognate verb which occurs 15 times in the New Testament, only three of which occurrences refer to a departure from religion. And E. Schuyler English writes in his book, Re-Thinking the Rapture, , p. 69, “And, since a noun takes it meaning from the verb, the noun, too, may have such a broad connotation.” But the translators of the Geneva Bible, Wuest, and English didn’t complete their homework. Nouns do NOT always take their meaning from the verb, but may have very specialized meanings. For example, apostasion , which is also a cognate noun of the same verb, means “divorce” or some other kind of legal separation rather than “a departure.” Precisely the same thing applies to the cognate noun apostasia which means “apostasy” and from which, of course, we get the English word “apostasy.” And that this is so has been proven by hundreds of years of lexical studies.

 

[Craigbythesea]

John Eadie, D.D., LL.D., a Scottish Secession and United Presbyterian Church minister was completing his work on a commentary on the Greek text of the Thessalonian Epistles when he died in 1872. The late Rev. William Young gave it the “final touches” and it was published in 1877. This very fine work includes a 42 page essay on “The Man of Sin” found in 2 Thess. 2:3-10. This essay is very detailed and summarizes and quotes the views of scores of early Christian writers and theologians throughout the history of the Church. John Eadie was a scholar and in his writings he addressed learned audiences that were fluent in English, Greek, and Latin, and many of his quotes are in Greek or Latin, but both his commentary and his essay are very much worth the effort required in reading them.

 

[HankD]

This question has slipped through the cracks:

What is and where is the "temple of God" in which the "man of sin/lawlessness" will sit showing himself to be god?

Any takers?

HankD

 

[carlaimpinge]

Very simple IF you look at the Book.

The temple of God IS found in Jerusalem,(Rev.11), which is in Judea (Matt.24), from where JEWS flee. This is according to the Lord Jesus Christ, who quoted Daniel the prophet, who speaks of the same thing. A Sanctuary where sacrifices and offerings are being made. (Dan.8,9,11)

This occurs at the MIDST of the week.

 

[HankD]

The temple of God IS found in Jerusalem,(Rev.11), which is in Judea (Matt.24), from where JEWS flee. This is according to the Lord Jesus Christ, who quoted Daniel the prophet, who speaks of the same thing. A Sanctuary where sacrifices and offerings are being made. (Dan.8,9,11)

This occurs at the MIDST of the week.

OK thanks. What does this mean to you in terms of the time line continuum Carl?

Is the "temple of God" the Herodian Temple just before its destruction in 70AD?

Not a litmus test just curious as to the different views.

HankD

 

[carlaimpinge]

Hank,

I answered both of those questions in my post. Time is MIDST of Daniel's week.

In Christ Jesus,
Carl

 

[HankD]

I answered both of those questions in my post. Time is MIDST of Daniel's week.

OK thanks but I am still not sure what you mean because of the many interpretations of "week" whether a week of days, years, centuries, millenia etc.

If what some folks call Daniels's 70th week is what you mean (dispensational view?),
I will assume Herod's Temple.

Anyone one else willing to be vulnerable and give a view (or even a guess) concerning the what where, and when of the "Temple of God" in 2 Thessalonians?


HankD

 

[carlaimpinge]

Hank,

Daniel's week is a week of years, which is seven. The person of Dan.7 and Rev.13 has power for 42 months, which is a time, times, and a dividing of time, which BEGINS in the MIDST of Daniel's week, according to Dan. 9,11, 12, and Matt.24. The EVENTS of the passages coincide.

Herod's temple is a misnomer. According to the Bible, it was built by Zerubbabel. (Ezra 3) That was the temple which the Lord visited. There was no destruction of that temple till Titus.

In Christ Jesus,
Carl

 

[Ed Edwards]

Carlaimpinge: "The person of Dan.7 and Rev.13 has power
for 42 months, which is a time, times, and a dividing
of time, which BEGINS in the MIDST of Daniel's week, ... "

I believe in the 3½-years from the revelation of the Antichrist (A/C)
to the mid-trib crisis A/C will establish his base of power.
I believe in the 3½-years from the mid-trib crisis (when the
A/C commits the Abomination of Desolation /AOD/) to the
end of the Tribulation Period, the A/C will have
power. But the power of this A/C beast from the sea will come
from the indwelling of the unholy spirit: Satan.

 

[carlaimpinge]

Ed,

You have used a term which is not biblical NOR scriptural truth. (Midtrib) The only future time of ESCHATOLOGICAL tribulation "begins" at the MIDST of the week. (Matt.24, Mark 13)

There is no revelation preweek. Paul teaches the revelation is midweek. It comes AFTER the working of Satan, who is cast down at the MIDST of the week. (Rev.12-13)

You have also separated the week EXACTLY in the middle. There is no biblical reference of a 31/2 year period of time BEFORE the revelation of the beast.

We're not dealing with EVERYTHING happening "simultaneously" in the MIDDLE, but SEVERAL things occurring in the MIDST of the week. Daniel and John's prophecies dictate that.

Example. Moses/Elijah START their prophecy of 1260 days BEFORE the beast is given power of 42 months for his. HE KILLS THEM AND IS STILL ALIVE. His 42 months is not over, but their's IS. They didn't start AT THE SAME TIME. (in the middle, as most preweek rapturists believe and teach.)

In Christ Jesus,
Carl

 

[Ed Edwards]

Carlaimpinge: "Herod's temple is a misnomer. According to the Bible, it was built by Zerubbabel. (Ezra 3) That was the temple which the Lord visited. There was no destruction of that temple till Titus."

Nevertheless, in the time of the Herods, this temple was restored.
And Jesus, our Master, visited there. This temple was
destroyed at the order of General (later Emperor) Titus of
the Roman Empire in 70AD.

In the Future, the Temple will be built again.
Here is the prophetic description of it:

Revelation 11:1-2 (HCSB):

Then I was given a measuring reed like a rod, with these words:
"Go and measure God's sanctuary and the altar,
and count those who worship there.
2 But exclude the courtyard outside the sanctuary.
Don't measure it, because it is given to the nations,
and they will trample the holy city for 42 months.

To start building the 3rd temple, it must first be
measured. If the outer court is not to be measured, then
nothing is to be built there. This is good, right now
there is a Dome of the Rock there. I believe the third
temple will be built alongside the Done of the Rock.

Carlaimpinge: "You have also separated the week EXACTLY
in the middle. There is no biblical reference of
a 31/2 year period of time BEFORE the revelation of the beast."

Sorry, i just gave the reference: Revelation 11:1-2.
You know 42 months = 3½-years. BTW, I make "½" by
holding down the ALT key typing (use the keypad at the
side and not the numbers at the top) "121" ALT-121 = ½.

 

[Ed Edwards]

Carlaimpinge: "Example. Moses/Elijah START their prophecy
of 1260 days BEFORE the beast is given power of 42 months
for his. HE KILLS THEM AND IS STILL ALIVE.
His 42 months is not over, but their's IS."

Carlaimpinge: "You have also separated the week EXACTLY in the middle.
There is no biblical reference of a 31/2 year period
of time BEFORE the revelation of the beast."

Your statements are mutually contradictory: only one can be true.
Which one?

Right after the pretribulation Period (first half) rapature/resurrection
the Antichrist is revealed (folks know who he is, but he
doesn't have absolute power yet).
In the middle of the tribulation, the Antichrist
(probably at the completition of the Temple) delcares himself
to be a god - the Jewish Israeli elect saints will see that
Messiah ANtichrist is a false messiah and most will look upon
the rejected cornerstone: Jesus as their true Messiah.