The Atonement of Christ: What did it REALLY Achieve ?2

[MB]

That doesn't answer the question. Let me ask you again.

...so as long as the wise human fulfills all the steps prescribed to them they will be successful in being saved.

Is that correct, MB?

In your verse God drags them to belief. Look at the narrative that comes before that verse. What was it that caused the jailer to ask the question?

Now, back to that question, which simply needs a correct or incorrect answer...

...so as long as the wise human fulfills all the steps prescribed to them they will be successful in being saved.

Is that correct, MB?

Why don't you just admit the truth. Your not God though you pretend to be better than every one else. There simply is no salvation with out faith first. Accepting that Christ is who He claimed to be. You did it when you were freewill now you deny it was real. You said you were freewill but you wavered in your faith and became a Calvinist. You really can't see that you were misled in to Calvinism. Don't worry God forgives. You have to ask to receive
MB.

 

[AustinC]

Why don't you just admit the truth. Your not God though you pretend to be better than every one else. There simply is no salvation with out faith first. Accepting that Christ is who He claimed to be. You did it when you were freewill now you deny it was real. You said you were freewill but you wavered in your faith and became a Calvinist. You really can't see that you were misled in to Calvinism. Don't worry God forgives. You have to ask to receive
MB.

...so as long as the wise human fulfills all the steps prescribed to them they will be successful in being saved.

Is that correct, MB?

Faith is given to us by God.

Romans 12:3 For by the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think with sober judgment, each according to the measure of faith that God has assigned.[/i]

Hebrews 12:2 Looking to Jesus, the founder and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God.

 

[MB]

...so as long as the wise human fulfills all the steps prescribed to them they will be successful in being saved.

Is that correct, MB?

Faith is given to us by God.

Romans 12:3 For by the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think with sober judgment, each according to the measure of faith that God has assigned.[/i]

Hebrews 12:2 Looking to Jesus, the founder and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God.

You can't do anything with out the will to do it. The homeless are so because they don't have the will to do anything about it. If you have a Job you can't do it with out the will to do it. There is no one that can do anything with out the will to do it. You can't be saved with out the will to do it. Freewill is not what you claim it is. The term means we can believe but this only makes believers. God saves as in;

Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
This clearly says what I mean by being willing The Lord is the one who saves. Notice the underlined says even we believe that we might be justified by the faith of Christ. Salvation is still up to God not man nor His will. Paul wrote;
2Co_8:12 For if there be first a willing mind, it is accepted according to that a man hath, and not according to that he hath not.
You might say this verse wasn't for Salvation yet at the same time you were accepted because of your willingness. You were saved because you were willing.
MB

 

[AustinC]

You can't do anything with out the will to do it.The homeless are so because they don't have the will to do anything about it. If you have a Job you can't do it with out the will to do it. There is no one that can do anything with out the will to do it. You can't be saved with out the will to do it. Freewill is not what you claim it is. The term means we can believe but this only makes believers. God saves as in;

Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
This clearly says what I mean by being willing The Lord is the one who saves. Notice the underlined says even we believe that we might be justified by the faith of Christ. Salvation is still up to God not man nor His will. Paul wrote;
2Co_8:12 For if there be first a willing mind, it is accepted according to that a man hath, and not according to that he hath not.
You might say this verse wasn't for Salvation yet at the same time you were accepted because of your willingness. You were saved because you were willing.
MB

Perhaps you missed what Paul tells you.

Romans 11:33-36 Oh, the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments and how inscrutable his ways! “For who has known the mind of the Lord, or who has been his counselor?” “Or who has given a gift to him that he might be repaid?” For from him and through him and to him are all things.To him be glory forever. Amen.

We cannot do anything without the will of God giving us the capacity to do so. This includes God giving us over to our own sin.

You lift men far above their station. Far above what God says about man.

 

[MB]

Perhaps you missed what Paul tells you.

Romans 11:33-36 Oh, the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments and how inscrutable his ways! “For who has known the mind of the Lord, or who has been his counselor?” “Or who has given a gift to him that he might be repaid?” For from him and through him and to him are all things.To him be glory forever. Amen.

We cannot do anything without the will of God giving us the capacity to do so. This includes God giving us over to our own sin.

You lift men far above their station. Far above what God says about man.

Where do you think mans will comes from? Didn't God create everything we are made of. He gave us our personalities our reasoning and the capacity of original thought. All things do indeed come from God I agree. Yet with out original thought our sins would be God's fault. God did not create us for sin nor did He create us to commit sin. Yet we all sin.Because we are willing to sin. Even after Salvation man is not able to escape his will to sin. Paul said sin lives in his flesh and even though his flesh sinned it was no longer him that sinned but the sin in his flesh. We are indeed like two people in the same flesh. One a sinner and the other an observer of the sin his flesh commits
You are wrong here about myself trying to be better than God. There is no comparison
MB.

 

[AustinC]

Where do you think mans will comes from? Didn't God create everything we are made of. He gave us our personalities our reasoning and the capacity of original thought. All things do indeed come from God I agree. Yet with out original thought our sins would be God's fault. God did not create us for sin nor did He create us to commit sin. Yet we all sin.Because we are willing to sin. Even after Salvation man is not able to escape his will to sin. Paul said sin lives in his flesh and even though his flesh sinned it was no longer him that sinned but the sin in his flesh. We are indeed like two people in the same flesh. One a sinner and the other an observer of the sin his flesh commits
You are wrong here about myself trying to be better than God. There is no comparison
MB.

We have no original thought. Solomon tells us "there is nothing new under the sun." Outside of Christ, all our thoughts are evil, self-centered and corrupt. We have no capacity to save ourselves by our own choices.

 

[Brightfame52]

Can't you read with out placing your own thoughts in there to change what your reading in to what you want it to say. When Christ died he made it possible for all to be saved.No one was saved with out the blood of Jesus if He hadn't died for our sins we would all be hell bound.
MB

You put your own thoughts in your comment.

 

[Brightfame52]

It delivered us from wrath !

1 Thess 1:10

10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

Who is Paul speaking of here ? Lets look at vs 4-5

4Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God.

5For our gospel came not unto you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Ghost, and in much assurance; as ye know what manner of men we were among you for your sake

He is writing to the Election of Grace. Those that Christ died for and rose again, and by that, He delivered God's Elect from the Wrath to come !

The wrath here is that vindicative punishment that the wicked, unbelievers will receive as Per Matt 25:46

And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

2 Thess 1:8

In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

Matt 25:41

41Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

We know Christ could not have died for those whom He will yet say these words unto, for He calls them cursed !

Now all for whom Christ did die have been redeemed from the curse of the Law, Christ being made a curse in their room and stead Gal 3:13

13Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

The word for is the prep huper and means:

in behalf of, for the sake of

over, beyond, more than

more, beyond, over

So , for all those He died, God made Him a curse in behalf of them ! And this released them from the curse of the Law. Now the strength of sin being the law, no sin can they ever be condemned for ! He being made a curse for them, was their deliverance, their salvation from the wrath to come 1 Thess 5:9


9For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

Rom 5:9

Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

 

[Salty]

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[Brightfame52]

It delivered us from wrath !


1 Thess 1:10

10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.


Who is Paul speaking of here ? Lets look at vs 4-5


4 Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God.


5 For our gospel came not unto you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Ghost, and in much assurance; as ye know what manner of men we were among you for your sake


He is writing to the Election of Grace. Those that Christ died for and rose again, and by that, He delivered God's Elect from the Wrath to come !


The wrath here is that vindicative punishment that the wicked, unbelievers will receive as Per Matt 25:46


And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.


2 Thess 1:8


In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:


Matt 25:41


41Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:


We know Christ could not have died for those whom He will yet say these words unto, for He calls them cursed !


Now all for whom Christ did die have been redeemed from the curse of the Law, Christ being made a curse in their room and stead Gal 3:13


13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:


The word for is the prep huper and means:


in behalf of, for the sake of


over, beyond, more than


more, beyond, over


So , for all those He died, God made Him a curse in behalf of them ! And this released them from the curse of the Law. Now the strength of sin being the law, no sin can they ever be condemned for ! He being made a curse for them, was their deliverance, their salvation from the wrath to come 1 Thess 5:9

9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

Rom 5:9

Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

 

[ad finitum]

...so as long as the wise human fulfills all the steps prescribed to them they will be successful in being saved.

You make it sound as if walking to a Billy Graham crusade is somehow "working for your salvation".

 

[AustinC]

You make it sound as if walking to a Billy Graham crusade is somehow "working for your salvation".

This is only because your ears don't hear what I am saying.
...so as long as the wise human fulfills all the steps prescribed to them they will be successful in being saved.

Is that correct, adfinitum?

 

[MB]

You make it sound as if walking to a Billy Graham crusade is somehow "working for your salvation".

Austin is only trying to make you look foolish.
MB

 

[AustinC]

Austin is only trying to make you look foolish.
MB

I'm asking you both a question you will not answer.

...so as long as the wise human fulfills all the steps prescribed to them they will be successful in being saved.

Is that correct, adfinitum and MB?

 

[ad finitum]

This is only because your ears don't hear what I am saying.
...so as long as the wise human fulfills all the steps prescribed to them they will be successful in being saved.

Is that correct, adfinitum?

Fulfilling the steps would include getting out of bed in the morning. Also, being awake burns calories and thinking also burns more calories (you know, ENERGY). That's how much "work" is involved in "taking steps" to hear, ponder, and respond in faith to the Gospel. This is why the Calvinist cannot allow any of this to be of one's own free will or one's own faith. Because the air that our fallen bodies are efforting to breathe is "contributing" to our salvation. The only way to erase that is to make all of it God's effort. So the free will is manually switched by God and the necessary mustard seed is planted in us and so, at that moment, our eyes suddenly brighten and the Gospel no longer sounds like nonsense.

That's what this familiar Calvinist argument boils down to. The effort of breathing air while exercising faith is adding "works" or "helping in your own salvation". Horrors. Blasphemy.

You eventually have to stop reading this stuff so that your physiognomy can heal from all the face-palms.

 

[Salty]

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