The Atonement of Christ: What did it REALLY Achieve ?2

[Dave G]

Calvinism seems to disagree with the bible don't you think.

I'm not a "Calvinist" and never have been.

But I do agree with much of what that systematic theology teaches.
In the so-called "Five Points", I see the Bible agreeing with it right down the line, point by point.
But I see you agreeing with something that men have taught for many centuries now, and that most "denominations" ( especially in these last days ) are teaching more and more ...

The idea that sinful and rebellious men who will not and cannot ever be trusted to repent and obey the Lord, can, from those very same darkened and alienated hearts and minds ( Romans 1:18-32, Ephesians 4:17-19 ) actually affect a miracle from God... if we only "let Him";
That we can cooperate with God in order to "allow" Him to change our hard hearts...
That He extends His hand in friendship, and that we, as a race, actually have both the desire and the ability to choose between biting it off, and taking it in gratitude.

That my friend, is not taught anywhere in God's word.

Salvation is completely and totally "of" the Lord, and it is His holy work that He will not allow to be polluted by our own efforts at seeking to please Him;
Efforts that only end up not pleasing Him, because the only One who ever could, was put on a cross for the sake of His brethren.

It is to that set of teachings that I make my replies.



With that, I take my leave of this thread and wish you well.
May He bless you in many ways and with many good gifts, regardless of any disagreements that we may have.

 

[kyredneck]

Faith is not a work. Romans 10:13 is true.
MB

Who said faith was a work?

28 They said therefore unto him, What must we do, that we may work the works of God?
29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent. Jn 6

 

[37818]

28 They said therefore unto him, What must we do, that we may work the works of God?
29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent. Jn 6

The "work of God," not a work of man, Romans 4:4-5.

 

[kyredneck]

The "work of God," not a work of man, Romans 4:4-5.

You asked:

Who said faith was a work?

Well, Christ did!:

28 They said therefore unto him, What must we do, that we may work the works of God?
29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent. Jn 6

 

[37818]

28 They said therefore unto him, What must we do, that we may work the works of God?
29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent. Jn 6

Romans 4:4-5, ". . . Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. . . ."
Romans 11:6, ". . . And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work. . . ."
Matthew 7:21-23, ". . . Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. . . ."

The question needs to be asked what work and whose work is one trusting in. John 6:27-29. Romans 2:10, Philippians 2:13.

 

[kyredneck]

Romans 4:4-5, ". . . Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. . . ."

K. But his faith is a 'fruit of the Spirit', i.e., 'the work of God'.

3 Wherefore I make known unto you, that no man speaking in the Spirit of God saith, Jesus is anathema; and no man can say, Jesus is Lord, but in the Holy Spirit. 1 Cor 12

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. Gal 5

The faith comes just as naturally as the works to those born of the Spirit:

14 (for when Gentiles that have not the law do by nature the things of the law, these, not having the law, are the law unto themselves;
15 in that they show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness therewith, and their thoughts one with another accusing or else excusing them); Ro 2

 

[37818]

K. But his faith is a 'fruit of the Spirit', i.e., 'the work of God'.

3 Wherefore I make known unto you, that no man speaking in the Spirit of God saith, Jesus is anathema; and no man can say, Jesus is Lord, but in the Holy Spirit. 1 Cor 12

The faith precedes our having eternal life which precedes the having the fruit of the Spirit.

 

[kyredneck]

The faith precedes our having eternal life which precedes the having the fruit of the Spirit.

No. You've got it backwards. We must first be born from above before we can do any good thing.

I'm not going to go in circles with you again. Mostly what you do is pit scripture against scripture with no attempt to resolve or rightly divide seeming contradictions. You're a synergist. It appears you're incapable of thinking outside the synergist box. Fine. Stay where you're at. @MB will gladly go in circles with you.

 

[37818]

No. You've got it backwards. We must first be born from above before we can do any good thing.

You do errror. Romans 10:13-15 teaches, hearing precedes belief and the belief is prior to calling on the LORD being prior to being born again on the account of the promise of salvation following the asking.

 

[kyredneck]

Romans 10:13-15 teaches, hearing

12 The hearing ear, and the seeing eye, Jehovah hath made even both of them. Prov 20

16 But blessed are your eyes, for they see; and your ears, for they hear. Mt 13

15 He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.
27 All things have been delivered unto me of my Father: and no one knoweth the Son, save the Father; neither doth any know the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son willeth to reveal him. Mt 11

You do errror. Romans 10:13-15 teaches, hearing precedes belief and the belief is prior to calling on the LORD being prior to being born again

You're the one that errs greatly if you think 'saved' is synonymous with the heavenly birth. One must be born from above before they can be 'saved'.

 

[Brightfame52]

You exaggerate. We are saved by grace through faith as in Eph. 2:8 There is nothing in Calvinism that says we are saved by grace alone. There is no grace unless there is faith first. They go hand in hand Neither can save with out the other. Did Christ save the Pharisee's? They were definitely elect. No! He didn't save them because they rejected Him they did not believe in Him Most Jews rejected Him. even the elect.If Calvinism is true all the elect would be saved but they aren't
MB

You mean you dont understand that Salvation is 100% by the Grace of God ?

 

[37818]

12 The hearing ear, and the seeing eye, Jehovah hath made even both of them. Prov 20

16 But blessed are your eyes, for they see; and your ears, for they hear. Mt 13

15 He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.
27 All things have been delivered unto me of my Father: and no one knoweth the Son, save the Father; neither doth any know the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son willeth to reveal him. Mt 11



You're the one that errs greatly if you think 'saved' is synonymous with the heavenly birth. One must be born from above before they can be 'saved'.

Well we disagree.

 

[kyredneck]

You mean you dont understand that Salvation is 100% by the Grace of God ?

MB is GREAT. Special. Different from the rest of us. It is of MB that MB is in Christ Jesus.

 

[kyredneck]

Well we disagree.

...and that's fine. If you're as snug as a bug in a rug where you're at, stay there.

 

[37818]

...and that's fine. If you're as snug as a bug in a rug where you're at, stay there.

Well, what the word of God teaches.
Romans 3:10
Romans 3:23
Romans 5:12
Romans 6:23
Romans 5:8
Romans 10:9
Romans 10:13
Revelation 3:20

Many a Christian have been lead to their new birth using those passages.

 

[MB]

You asked:



Well, Christ did!:

28 They said therefore unto him, What must we do, that we may work the works of God?
29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent. Jn 6

Like I've always said God convinced me of Him Self. Convicted me of my sins and once I had faith He saved me. It is only Calvinist and people like you who accuse me of saving myself. This is what you accuse me of. It runs off me like water off a ducks back. No where in those passages does it teach that God saved me before I had faith..

 

[AustinC]

Like I've always said God convinced me of Him Self. Convicted me of my sins and once I had faith He saved me. It is only Calvinist and people like you who accuse me of saving myself. This is what you accuse me of. It runs off me like water off a ducks back. No where in those passages does it teach that God saved me before I had faith..

Whose faith did you have, MB?

 

[Brightfame52]

I have finished the Work !

The Lord Jesus Christ in contemplation of His impending death and subsequent resurrection from the dead for all whom the Father hath given Him in the Everlasting Covenant, as Surety for their sins against the Law of God, stated this ! Jn 17:4

4I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.69

The word finished here is the greek word Teleioo and means:

to make perfect, complete
to carry through completely, to accomplish, finish, bring to an end
to complete (perfect)
add what is yet wanting in order to render a thing full
to be found perfect
to bring to the end (goal) proposed
to accomplish
bring to a close or fulfilment by event
of the prophecies of the scriptures

Christ has left nothing undone, all completed. Now what is the Work that God the Father gave Him to do ?

It was nothing less than to seek and to save that which was Lost Lk 19:10

10 For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.

That is the work that God the Father gave to His Son to accomplish. Jn 6:38-40

38For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

39And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Not one Lost soul for whom the Father gave to the Son to seek and to save should be Lost, if it is, Christ is a liar and has left undone the Work which His Father gave Him to do.

 

[Sandyliara]

котлы наружного размещения Котлы наружного размещения | Sirius

 

[Brightfame52]

To seek and to save that which was Lost !

Lk 19:10

For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.

Now what was it that was Lost that Christ came to seek and to save ?70

It was the Sons of God that sinned in Adam, and Jesus Christ was successful in Saving all of them.

This has been Illustrated by the parable of the Lost Son Lk 15:11-32

The Father in this Parable would be God the Father, and the Lost Son would be all the Sons of God who went astray in Adam Lk 3:38

38Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.

Adam was the embodiment and Legal Federal Head of all the Sons of God at Creation in the Physical Lives.

They were Lost in Adam through his disobedience and became alienated from the Father.

Upon their reconciliation they are said to be found as in the Parable Lk 15:24,32

24For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry.

It was meet that we should make merry, and be glad: for this thy brother was dead, and is alive again; and was lost, and is found.

The Lost Son returning to His Father is the effect of the Work of Christ done on his behalf.. Lk 15:17-20


17And when he came to himself, he said, How many hired servants of my father's have bread enough and to spare, and I perish with hunger!

18I will arise and go to my father, and will say unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and before thee,

19And am no more worthy to be called thy son: make me as one of thy hired servants.

20And he arose, and came to his father. But when he was yet a great way off, his father saw him, and had compassion, and ran, and fell on his neck, and kissed him.

You see, that was the objective of Christ's Death, to bring back to God His Lost Sons 1 Pet 3:18

18For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

1 Pet 2:24-25

24Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

25For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.

The word returned here is the greek word Epistrepho and means:

to cause to return, to bring back

Thats what the Prodigal Son was experiencing when he made up his mind to return to his Fathers house.

This is the effect of Christ Death for each Son of God who sinned in Adam, they will be returned back to God, and that is what Christ came to do by His Death Lk 19:10

10For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.

If Each Son of God that was Lost in Adam does not convert as the Prodigal did in Lk 15:17-20 and it not be heard Lk 15:24

24For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry.

Then the Lord Jesus Christ failed in His Mission for His Father to seek and to save that which was Lost His death did not accomplish the objective !