How can Salvation be meaningless? Salvation being eternal it cannot be meaningless. Once a man believes he is sealed he can never be lost again.
MB
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The Atonement of Christ: What did it REALLY Achieve ?2
- Thread starter Brightfame52
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MB
You seem to be obsessed with demons. What a demon believes does not work for demons because they all had there chance and blew it. They could have chosen to stay and be angels but they followed after Satan. They will all suffer the same fate as Satan for it.
MB
Dave G
Well-Known Member
I agree.
To all outward appearances, they really did believe.
But when the tests and trials came, they didn't believe "to the saving of the soul" .
" Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.
39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul." ( Hebrews 10:38-39 )
They did not persevere in their faith, they did not grow in grace and knowledge, they did not bring forth true spiritual fruit and they did not continue in the word, showing that they were His disciples in deed.
Evidentially, they will have shown that they are not God's children and never were, that they were not kept by His power through faith unto salvation, and were not ready to be revealed at the appointed time.
When all is said and done, there will be many for whom Christ did not die, who will say to Him,
"Lord, Lord..." at the Judgment, and He will tell them, "I never knew you", and " Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:"
But He will never tell those for whom His Son died and made appeasement to God for,
that He never knew them.
He will tell them:
" ...Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:"
His atonement for them is part of why they are called "blessed".
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Once a man believes he is saved in that moment. For you to disagree shows you don't know much about Salvation, do you?
MB
So while they believed would they have gone to heaven if they died right then? Or would they burn in hell?
MB
Dave G
Well-Known Member
I disagree, at least in the sense that everyone who confesses Christ with the mouth is genuinely saved.
According to the Scriptures, there must be true belief in the heart, and there must be the evidence of the Holy Spirit in a person.
If those two are not present, then they are not saved... no matter how much they may claim to be.
What that indicates is that you and I understand salvation ( and how God's work is accomplished in a person ) very differently from one another...
and the way that I see you understanding it is almost exactly as I was taught growing up in Independent Baptist churches,
and attending them for almost 28 years.
Matthew 7:21-23.
Matthew 13:18-23.
Matthew 13:36-43.
Mark 4:1-20.
Luke 8:4-15.
" And he said unto them, Take heed what ye hear: with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you: and unto you that hear shall more be given.
25 For he that hath, to him shall be given: and he that hath not, from him shall be taken even that which he hath." ( Mark 4:24-25 ).
" Take heed therefore how ye hear: for whosoever hath, to him shall be given; and whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken even that which he seemeth to have." (Luke 8:18).
That depends upon whether or not they really believed,
which is why Paul told us this:
" And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled
22 in the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:
23 if ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;" ( Colossians 1:23 ).
One evidence of someone's salvation is that they continue in the faith, grounded and settled, and are not moved away from the hope of the Gospel.
Do you honestly think that just because someone "makes a decision for Christ", "prays the sinner's prayer and really, really, really means it" or "raises their hand in an AWANA's meeting" that they are really saved?
You may, but I stopped believing that many years ago, MB.
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I disagree, at least in the sense of everyone who confesses Christ with the mouth.
There must be true belief in the heart, and there must be the evidence of the Holy Spirit in a person.
If those two are not present, then they are not saved... no matter how much they may claim to be.
What that indicates is that you and I understand salvation ( and how God's work is accomplished in a person ) very differently from one another...
and the way that I see you understanding it is almost exactly as I was taught growing up in Independent Baptist churches for almost 28 years.
Matthew 7:21-23.
Matthew 13:18-23.
Matthew 13:36-43.
Mark 4:1-20.
Luke 8:4-15.
" And he said unto them, Take heed what ye hear: with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you: and unto you that hear shall more be given.
25 For he that hath, to him shall be given: and he that hath not, from him shall be taken even that which he hath." ( Mark 4:24-25 ).
" Take heed therefore how ye hear: for whosoever hath, to him shall be given; and whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken even that which he seemeth to have." (Luke 8:18).
That depends upon whether or not they really believed,
which is why Paul told us this:
" And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled
22 in the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:
23 if ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;" ( Colossians 1:23 ).
The evidence of someone's salvation is that they continue in the faith, grounded and settled, and are not moved away from the hope of the Gospel.
Do you honestly think that just because someone "makes a decision for Christ", "prays the sinner's prayer and really, really, really means it" or "raises their hand in an AWANA's meeting" that they are really saved?
You may, but I stopped believing that many years ago, MB.
So you lost faith in it and that is why your a Calvinist.
I've never been to AWANA meeting I prayed the sinners prayer and I made a decision for Christ. I've been saved for over 63 years. I may not be the best Christian that ever lived but I still believe in Jesus Christ and I always will. Works does not save..
MB
Dave G
Well-Known Member
No, I'm what you call a "Calvinist" because I see from every word of God how and why He bothered to save a wretch like me.
My discouragement about a certain teaching or another wasn't the reason, neither was reading a book other than the Bible.
I did all that as well...
I now know, deep down, that none of that was what saved me...
God did, because He loved me and chose me in Christ from the foundation of the world.
As do I, MB.
I will never stop following Him, even if I end up paying for it with my life.
On that much we agree.
Good evening to you.
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Jesus saves the willing.
God did, because He loved me and chose me in Christ from the foundation of the world.
You don't know that for sure.
I've read Eph. 1 thru chapter 6. You would have to be a Jew to be fore known of God, You are not elect nor can you prove you are.
If you're not right. Then what?
What exactly convinces you that you are now saved.where you weren't before?
For me it's the eternal peace I have about it, and how God provides for me.. Answered prayers and His guidance. I don't believe God does such things for the lost
MB
Then God saves N
NE!You openly ignore scripture with your assertion, MB.
Romans 3:9-18 What then? Are we Jews any better off? No, not at all. For we have already charged that all, both Jews and Greeks, are under sin, as it is written: “None is righteous, no, not one; no one understands; no one seeks for God. All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good, not even one.” “Their throat is an open grave; they use their tongues to deceive.” “The venom of asps is under their lips.” “Their mouth is full of curses and bitterness.” “Their feet are swift to shed blood; in their paths are ruin and misery, and the way of peace they have not known.” “There is no fear of God before their eyes."
Romans 9:15-16,18-19 For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy.
So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills. You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?”
MB, you seem to be the one who is complaining against God.
Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
A Ransoming
This Eternal Redemption is also a ransoming ! The blood was the ransom price, redemption is the effect or result. Remember the term ransom is used here Mk 10:45
For even the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.
1 Tim 2:6
Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
Now in Mk 10:45 the word for ransom is lytron and means:
the price for redeeming, ransom
a) paid for slaves, captives
b) for the ransom of life
2) to liberate many from misery and the penalty of their sins
In 1 Tim 2:6 the word is antilytron:
) what is given in exchange for another as the price of his redemption, ransom
This definition zero's in on the fact that a Life has been given for a life.
Once the ransom price has been accepted, then Justice has been served for the ransomed, all the penalties must cease by Divine Justice. Those ransomed are freed from all penalties. One such penalty was death, all facets of it. To be ransomed is to be set free from death
Hosea 13:14
I will ransom them from the power of the grave; I will redeem them from death: O death, I will be thy plagues; O grave, I will be thy destruction: repentance shall be hid from mine eyes.
Sin brought Death Rom 6:23
23For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
But, all for whom Christ gave Himself a Ransom in place of They as a matter of Justice must now Receive Life, Spiritual Life, because spiritual death no longer can be a penalty for their sins, They have by the blood of Christ liberated or set free from the penalty of sin.
Now that Christ has paid the ransom price, death must be abolished in behalf of those persons 2 Tim 1:10
10But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:
This word abolished is the greek word katargeō and means:
to render idle, unemployed, inactivate, inoperative
a) to cause a person or thing to have no further efficiency
b) to deprive of force, influence, power
2) to cause to cease, put an end to, do away with, annul, abolish
a) to cease, to pass away, be done away
b) to be severed from, separated from, discharged from, loosed from any one
c) to terminate all intercourse with one
Because of the ransom blood and the redemption through the blood of Christ, death is caused to cease, its done away with.
Since death is abolished, Life must be communicated, Life is the antithesis of death. Spiritual Life must be communicated to all for whom Christ gave Himself a Ransom. This Life is given by the Spirit in a New Birth. The New Birth is an evidence that Christ's ransom price of His Life, His blood has satisfied all the Justice of God for our sins. This Life that God gives is Eternal Life, an immortal Life, and this Life of immortality is brought to Light by the Gospel 2 Tim 1:10
10 But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:
This Eternal Redemption is also a ransoming ! The blood was the ransom price, redemption is the effect or result. Remember the term ransom is used here Mk 10:45
For even the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.
1 Tim 2:6
Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
Now in Mk 10:45 the word for ransom is lytron and means:
the price for redeeming, ransom
a) paid for slaves, captives
b) for the ransom of life
2) to liberate many from misery and the penalty of their sins
In 1 Tim 2:6 the word is antilytron:
) what is given in exchange for another as the price of his redemption, ransom
This definition zero's in on the fact that a Life has been given for a life.
Once the ransom price has been accepted, then Justice has been served for the ransomed, all the penalties must cease by Divine Justice. Those ransomed are freed from all penalties. One such penalty was death, all facets of it. To be ransomed is to be set free from death
Hosea 13:14
I will ransom them from the power of the grave; I will redeem them from death: O death, I will be thy plagues; O grave, I will be thy destruction: repentance shall be hid from mine eyes.
Sin brought Death Rom 6:23
23For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
But, all for whom Christ gave Himself a Ransom in place of They as a matter of Justice must now Receive Life, Spiritual Life, because spiritual death no longer can be a penalty for their sins, They have by the blood of Christ liberated or set free from the penalty of sin.
Now that Christ has paid the ransom price, death must be abolished in behalf of those persons 2 Tim 1:10
10But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:
This word abolished is the greek word katargeō and means:
to render idle, unemployed, inactivate, inoperative
a) to cause a person or thing to have no further efficiency
b) to deprive of force, influence, power
2) to cause to cease, put an end to, do away with, annul, abolish
a) to cease, to pass away, be done away
b) to be severed from, separated from, discharged from, loosed from any one
c) to terminate all intercourse with one
Because of the ransom blood and the redemption through the blood of Christ, death is caused to cease, its done away with.
Since death is abolished, Life must be communicated, Life is the antithesis of death. Spiritual Life must be communicated to all for whom Christ gave Himself a Ransom. This Life is given by the Spirit in a New Birth. The New Birth is an evidence that Christ's ransom price of His Life, His blood has satisfied all the Justice of God for our sins. This Life that God gives is Eternal Life, an immortal Life, and this Life of immortality is brought to Light by the Gospel 2 Tim 1:10
10 But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:
Dave G
Well-Known Member
Yes, He does.
Now, how is it that unwilling people change their minds and become willing?
God's word tells us, but it seems that you disagree with it.
Why, I cannot say.
1 John 5:13 tells me that I can know ( provided I "fit" the things that are described in what is written before that verse ) if I am among the saved, MB.
" These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God."
What "things"?
The things he describes in the passages prior.
How is it that the Bible itself tells me that I can know, but you tell me that I cannot?
I'm sorry, MB, but I'll trust the Scriptures which tell me that I am saved if I have the evidence described by God's word, in my life.
One of those evidences ( Hebrews 11:1 ) is the faith God gave to me as a gift ( Ephesians 2:8 ).
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Dave G
Well-Known Member
I've read the Bible through and through, MB, dozens of times.
I've believed on Christ for the forgiveness of my sins, and my faith has only grown over the years.
Since anyone who truly believes on Christ from the heart is one of God's elect, then anyone who truly believes on Christ is also saved.
But if that doesn't convince you, perhaps Someone else will.
I was saved before, MB.
I think you're misunderstanding what I'm saying.
Did you think I was telling you that when I believed something different before, that I was any less saved than now?
That's not how it works.
God's children can and are often times sidetracked with false doctrines ( Ephesians 4:11-16 ).
They start out uninformed about the details of how and why He has saved them, and they progress in their growth over time...from error, to truth.
Neither do I, and I've experienced all of that myself.
For example, His Spirit bears witness with my Spirit, that I am His.
I'll make this my final reply to you in this thread, MB.
I wish you well, and may God bless you with many good and perfect gifts.
Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
Dave g
Ps 110:3
3 Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth.
Ps 110:3
3 Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth.
37818
Well-Known Member
Our works of faith is not what saves us. The promise of Romans 10:13 is still nevertheless true. That work is a result of the faith which precedes the work and it is really the faith through which God gives one the salvation to the promise of that work. So Romans 10:13 is a case of hearing, then faith, tben asking which is a work having the promise preceding that salvation which God gives without any merit regarding that work of promise. And that the same faith that preceded the asking remains the same faith from regeneration the Calvinist sees as the believers saving faith.
Dave G
Hearing God's word is what made me willing. I've never claimed I saved myself although Calvinist accuse me of it. The only reason they do this is because they don't believe what scripture says about it We can believe, pray and God can accept our willing confession and repentance and save us, it is the Lord Jesus that saves. Now watch your going to tell me again I saved my self.
MB
Hearing God's word is what made me willing. I've never claimed I saved myself although Calvinist accuse me of it. The only reason they do this is because they don't believe what scripture says about it We can believe, pray and God can accept our willing confession and repentance and save us, it is the Lord Jesus that saves. Now watch your going to tell me again I saved my self.
MB
You're wrong as usual. This verse below is what makes us willing and we believe it.
Rom 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Once we begin to believe we are saved and that is what faith is all about.
MB
MB, I made bold the statement that shows you agree with Calvinists. All who are Reformed will agree that God must speak His word into our heart before we can be willing. This shows that God must make you alive with Christ before faith will be activated.
Perhaps you cannot see it, but you have confirmed Reformed faith. Please note that it is not so bad as you seem to think.
"Hearing God's word is what made me willing."
That is the work of God, which initiates your ability to confess with your mouth and believe in your heart.
MB, you sound like a closet Reformer. [emoji16]
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