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The Atonement of Christ: What did it REALLY Achieve ?2
- Thread starter Brightfame52
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welcome to the club
Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
Dead people dont have faith. They dead. Faith is the fruit of the Spirit Gal 5:22, so Faith is the fruit of having been made alive.
37818
Well-Known Member
So am I to undersand you believe the stony gound believer was saved and lost.
Luke 8:13, ". . . when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away. . . ."
Dave G
Well-Known Member
To me, that depends on how one reads it.
" For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:
9 not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them." ( Ephesians 2:8-10 ).
For example,
I clearly see that it is by grace that I was saved through my faith ( not because of it ), and that my faith ( "that" points back to "faith" in the sentence ) was not "of" ( originating with ) myself, but was indeed the gift of God...
not "of" ( originating with or a product of ) my works, lest I should boast in those works.
As a believer,
I am His workmanship, created "in" Christ Jesus ( in the body of believers, His spiritual body ) for the purpose of doing good works, which God has ordained me to walk in.
Therefore, the gift of faith that is not of myself, but is indeed the gift "of" ( originating with or the product of ) God,
agrees perfectly with Hebrews 12:2 ( a faith that is authored and finished by Jesus Christ and not by the believer ) and many other passages that show me that without the Lord's grace, I would not even have the faith to trust in Him.
Further support can be found in other places ( such as Philippians 1:29 ), where it is given to believers in the behalf of Christ to both believe on Him and to suffer for his sake...
Given, as a gift,
Not produced as a requirement that the Lord demands in order to keep Him from casting us into the Lake of Fire.
Outside of God's work in a person, I see that no one would have true faith.
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Dave G
Well-Known Member
Of course MB can speak for himself,
But based on our many interactions over the short time that I've been here, I see him objecting to the idea that God saves someone "against their will" ( made kings and priests by God without their cooperation ),
which, according to Romans 1, Romans 2, Romans 3, Psalms 10, Psalms 14 and John 3:19-20, is already biased against God from birth.
In other passages we find that the "world" hates Jesus Christ and actually hates those who believe in Him, which condemns us ( as a race ) even further, and places us all squarely in opposition to Him and His commands.
Because of that inward bias,
God must indeed save a person "against their will", since that power of will ( which is a product of a darkened mind and a heart which loves to do evil ) must be overcome in order to have a relationship with God that is not littered with disobedience on our part.
God making us a new creature "in Christ" is the only way that He could possibly guarantee that we will approach Him in reconciliation and genuine repentance.
In other words, we will not and cannot clean the inside of the cup ( Matthew 23:25-26, Luke 11:39-40 ), so the Lord is forced to do it for us...
because we will not come to Him, so that we might have life;
Just as the Lord pointed out to the Pharisees in John 5:40.
In my opinion,
MB also sees that to understand the Scriptures this way is to be a "Calvinist" ( which I assume means to take one's understanding of the Scriptures from the man, John Calvin ) whether or not one has even read John Calvin's Institutes or taken their teachings from him and others like him.
I've assured him that I do not,
but he seems not to believe that a person can actually reach this understanding all by themselves, completely uninfluenced by the writings of men.
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I'm not dead nor was I ever unable to respond to the gospel. Your phony idea of an inability is not provable from scripture. Those you call dead can believe as did the Jailer in Acts 16:31. As did Cornelius, and Paul. No where in scripture does it ever say we are saved with out first believing.
You are wrong about ;
Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
No where does it ever say faith is the fruit of being made alive.
You really don't Know scripture very well because in order to get what you do . You have to add to it.
Like I said before this is what is wrong with Calvinism and that is you have to add or take away from scripture to come up with your nonsense able theology.MB
I couldn't help but notice you ignored proving you are elect. or acknowledging what scripture says.
MB
. You add nothing to the conversation but a snicker
MB
Indeed, God must first speak into your deadness and make you alive.
Ephesians 2:4-9 But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.
MB, you keep fighting against the bit when the Spirit tells you that you are wrong.
37818
Well-Known Member
It is my understanding the subject of Ephesians 2:8 are the words translated, ". . .saved . . ." ". . . that . . ." ". . . the gift . . . ."
Why are you worried?
MB
Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
37818
Well-Known Member
Luke 8:13, " . . . when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away."
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