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The Atonement of Christ: What did it REALLY Achieve ?2
- Thread starter Brightfame52
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Sorry about that. My Mistake
MB
Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
The Blood of the Covenant !
Scripture is clear that Christ's Blood is Covenant Blood ! Matt 26:28
28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
That word testament is the greek word diathēkē and is also translated covenant :
a disposition, arrangement, of any sort, which one wishes to be valid, the last disposition which one makes of his earthly possessions after his death, a testament or will
Notice that the word used has more to do with the last disposition or testament, the bequeathing of the possessions after the death of the Testator or the one making a will.
As far as a agreement between parties are concerned, another word for covenant is used ,it is the word suntithemi lit., "to put together, which means to agree or assent.
But the prominent feature in the Covenant Blood of Christ is its accomplishments, what it actually does for and unto those for which it was shed..
Heb 13:20
20 Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,
We want to look at some of the Accomplishments of the Blood of the Covenant unto its beneficiaries, those whom Christ has ordered the bestowal of the purchased possessions upon them.
Now one of the accomplishments is that His Covenant Blood abolished the need for further imprisonment.
Lets look at Isa 42:7
To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house.
First lets look at vs 6 I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;
Thats speaking about His Blood being given in Covenant for the People, and one of the accomplishments vs 7 is to bring out the Prisoners from the prison house. Note that it does not say to offer them a way out if they decide to accept it, but to actually bring them out !
That word phrase bring out in vs 7 is the hebrew word yatsa and literally means:
to cause to go or come out, bring out, lead out
Now what Prison house is meant here ? The Prison house of sin ! God hath concluded all under sin ! Gal 3:22
But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
Now the All here is speaking of the elect, and when they sinned in Adam, God concluded them under sin. Now this word concluded is the greek word sygkleiō and means:
to shut up together, enclose
a) of a shoal of fishes in a net
2) to shut up on all sides, shut up completely As in a prison Emphasis mine !
This was part of the Death we incurred when God told Adam, in the day that you eat, ye shall surely die. Well imprisonment and enslavement to sin is the outcome.66
And one of the Accomplishments of Christ Covenant Blood, it bring the Prisoners out of Prison, out of captivity to sin..
This is not accomplished by anything the prisoner did, their repentance, their faith, or none of that, but accomplished by the Blood of the Covenant !
Scripture is clear that Christ's Blood is Covenant Blood ! Matt 26:28
28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
That word testament is the greek word diathēkē and is also translated covenant :
a disposition, arrangement, of any sort, which one wishes to be valid, the last disposition which one makes of his earthly possessions after his death, a testament or will
Notice that the word used has more to do with the last disposition or testament, the bequeathing of the possessions after the death of the Testator or the one making a will.
As far as a agreement between parties are concerned, another word for covenant is used ,it is the word suntithemi lit., "to put together, which means to agree or assent.
But the prominent feature in the Covenant Blood of Christ is its accomplishments, what it actually does for and unto those for which it was shed..
Heb 13:20
20 Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,
We want to look at some of the Accomplishments of the Blood of the Covenant unto its beneficiaries, those whom Christ has ordered the bestowal of the purchased possessions upon them.
Now one of the accomplishments is that His Covenant Blood abolished the need for further imprisonment.
Lets look at Isa 42:7
To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house.
First lets look at vs 6 I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;
Thats speaking about His Blood being given in Covenant for the People, and one of the accomplishments vs 7 is to bring out the Prisoners from the prison house. Note that it does not say to offer them a way out if they decide to accept it, but to actually bring them out !
That word phrase bring out in vs 7 is the hebrew word yatsa and literally means:
to cause to go or come out, bring out, lead out
Now what Prison house is meant here ? The Prison house of sin ! God hath concluded all under sin ! Gal 3:22
But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
Now the All here is speaking of the elect, and when they sinned in Adam, God concluded them under sin. Now this word concluded is the greek word sygkleiō and means:
to shut up together, enclose
a) of a shoal of fishes in a net
2) to shut up on all sides, shut up completely As in a prison Emphasis mine !
This was part of the Death we incurred when God told Adam, in the day that you eat, ye shall surely die. Well imprisonment and enslavement to sin is the outcome.66
And one of the Accomplishments of Christ Covenant Blood, it bring the Prisoners out of Prison, out of captivity to sin..
This is not accomplished by anything the prisoner did, their repentance, their faith, or none of that, but accomplished by the Blood of the Covenant !
Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
In your opinion, They do not prove anything you've said so far I haven't given praise to anyone or thing but God and His son. There isn't a verse 61 in Isiah in chapter 42
Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
The Blood of the Covenant cont
Yes, The Blood of the Covenant brings out the Prisoners, those that were captive by the devil 2 Tim 2:26
26 And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.
The Blood of the Covenant opens blind eyes ! Isa 42:7
To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house.
We by Nature are Spiritually blind ! Acts 26:18
18 To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.
Thats the giving also the eye of Faith. To open their eyes, not to offer it.
Paul was a Minister of the New Covenant 2 Cor 3.. The Covenant Blood of Christ demands that all for whom He died be given Spiritual sight.. Hence Jesus says Jn 6:40
40And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Yes, The Blood of the Covenant brings out the Prisoners, those that were captive by the devil 2 Tim 2:26
26 And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.
The Blood of the Covenant opens blind eyes ! Isa 42:7
To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house.
We by Nature are Spiritually blind ! Acts 26:18
18 To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.
Thats the giving also the eye of Faith. To open their eyes, not to offer it.
Paul was a Minister of the New Covenant 2 Cor 3.. The Covenant Blood of Christ demands that all for whom He died be given Spiritual sight.. Hence Jesus says Jn 6:40
40And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
The only way that calvinists hope to prove their view is to grab out of context random verses and hope that you will just accept them as proof. Context is not the friend of calvinism.
They always say we do not understand calvinism but what we do not understand is how anyone in their right mind would follow calvinism. Calvinism is just a man made man glorifying theology. Their one of the elect don't you know, how dare you question their higher knowledge, their greater insight of the bible.
If they would just stop with the hyperbole and just use scripture in context then many of their errors would disappear.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
Austin perhaps you should do a bit more reading.
Salvation - the Gift from God Eph_2:8-9
Dr. William Mounce oversight committee of ESV
For centuries, Bible commentators have differed on the precise reference of the pronoun “that” in Eph_2:8. Does “that” (touto G5124) refer to faith, as many have stated (e.g., Augustine, Chrysostom, Westcott, Lenski, etc.), or, does “that” refer to salvation from sin? Is faith “the gift of God,” or is this gift salvation by grace through faith?
Admittedly, from a cursory reading of Eph_2:8, it may appear that the relative pronoun that has faith as its grammatical antecedent. Those who believe that faith is a gift (i.e., miraculous imposition) from God, often point out that in this verse “faith” is the nearest antecedent of “that” (“For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God”). However, when one examines Eph_2:8 in the language in which it was written originally (Greek), he finds that the pronoun that G5124 (touto) is neuter in gender, while the word faith G4102 (pistis) is feminine. Since the general rule in Greek grammar is for the gender and number of a relative pronoun to be the same as its antecedent (Mounce, 1993, p. 111), then some extenuating linguistic circumstance, special idiomatic use, or other mitigating factor would need to be demonstrated to justify linking “that” to “faith.” If such reasonable justification cannot be made, then one is compelled to continue studying the passage in order to know assuredly what “that” gift of God is.
When no clear antecedent is found within a text, Greek scholar William Mounce wisely recommends that the Bible student study the context of the passage in question in order to help determine to what a relative pronoun (like “that”) is referring (1993, p. 111). The overall context of the first three chapters of Ephesians is man’s salvation found in Christ.
“In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace” (Eph_1:7).
The heavenly “inheritance” is found in Christ (Eph_1:11).
After believing in the good news of salvation through Christ, the Ephesians were “sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise” (Eph_1:13).
Sinners are made “alive with Christ” and saved “by grace” (Eph_2:5).
Sinners are brought near to God “by the blood of Christ” (Eph_2:13).
Paul became a servant of Christ “according to the gift of the grace of God…by the effective working of His power” (Eph_3:7).
Not only is the theme of salvation the overall context of the first three chapters of Ephesians, but the immediate context of Eph_2:8-9 is of salvation, not of faith. Paul is talking about HOW A PERSON IS SAVED. The main idea of the sentence is found in the verb phrase "you have been saved" G4982. How is a person saved? Eph_2:8-9 answers this key question.
Salvation is by grace.
Salvation is through faith.
Salvation is not of yourselves.
Salvation is the GIFT OF GOD.
Salvation is not of works.
Paul is not giving a dissertation on faith, but he is giving a brief dissertation on salvation. SALVATION is his main subject. Faith is mentioned because you cannot answer the question "HOW IS A PERSON SAVED?" without mentioning faith. A person is saved by believing on the Lord Jesus Christ (Act_16:31). God's gracious gift of salvation must be personally received, and it is received by faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. But the main thing that Paul is talking about in these two verses is salvation, not faith
A sinner receives salvation through obedient faith. The main focus of Paul’s message in Eph_2:8-9 was salvation (the living “water that springs up into everlasting life”—cf. Joh_4:14), not the mode of salvation.
Faith is not a direct gift from God given to some but not others. Rather, as Paul wrote to the church at Rome, “faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God” (Rom_10:17). Faith in Christ as the Son of God is only found in those who have first heard the Word of God, and then believed (cf. Joh_20:31).
Mounce, William D. (1993), Basics of Biblical Greek (Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan).
Salvation is the gift not faith. It is only your theology that requires that. Your theology does not agree with the bible.
Not true at all Men are saved by Jesus Christ. after all He is our Savior
MB
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
I disagree, at least in the sense that everyone who confesses Christ with the mouth is genuinely saved.
According to the Scriptures, there must be true belief in the heart, and there must be the evidence of the Holy Spirit in a person.
If those two are not present, then they are not saved... no matter how much they may claim to be.
One evidence of someone's salvation is that they continue in the faith, grounded and settled, and are not moved away from the hope of the Gospel.
Do you honestly think that just because someone "makes a decision for Christ", "prays the sinner's prayer and really, really, really means it" or "raises their hand in an AWANA's meeting" that they are really saved?
You may, but I stopped believing that many years ago, MB.
So you went from faith before you were saved to being saved before you have faith. Strange since that is not how the bible puts it.
Rom 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
Rom 10:10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Note how the bible has it. I think you should rethink what you believe. Calvinism seems to disagree with the bible don't you think.
Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
Perfected forever !
Heb 10:14
14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
This is one of the many many ways we know the scripture does not teach that Christ died for all mankind without exception, the fact being, those He did die for [ one offering] he hath by that death, perfected them forever !
From the merits of His death effects their sanctification in time by the Holy Spirit. The text here states that He hath perfected forever them that are sanctified. The word sanctified here is the greek word hagiazo and means:
to render or acknowledge, or to be venerable or hallow
to separate from profane things and dedicate to God consecrate things to God
dedicate people to God
to purify
to cleanse externally
to purify by expiation: free from the guilt of sin
to purify internally by renewing of the soul
And its a present passive participle, meaning they are being sanctified or renewed.
This being set apart for the active purpose of God, the internal renewing as per Titus 3:5
5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
All this renewing and sanctifying work is being done as an accomplishment of the offering of Christ and its resultant perfecting forever.68
So either Christ death will eventually cause all to be renewed by the Holy Ghost [ Titus 3:5] which we know is not the case, or His death was limited to only some, who will be renewed by the Holy Ghost or we deny the Truth of the accomplishment of His offering [death] that it hath perfected forever them He died for.
Heb 10:14
14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
This is one of the many many ways we know the scripture does not teach that Christ died for all mankind without exception, the fact being, those He did die for [ one offering] he hath by that death, perfected them forever !
From the merits of His death effects their sanctification in time by the Holy Spirit. The text here states that He hath perfected forever them that are sanctified. The word sanctified here is the greek word hagiazo and means:
to render or acknowledge, or to be venerable or hallow
to separate from profane things and dedicate to God consecrate things to God
dedicate people to God
to purify
to cleanse externally
to purify by expiation: free from the guilt of sin
to purify internally by renewing of the soul
And its a present passive participle, meaning they are being sanctified or renewed.
This being set apart for the active purpose of God, the internal renewing as per Titus 3:5
5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
All this renewing and sanctifying work is being done as an accomplishment of the offering of Christ and its resultant perfecting forever.68
So either Christ death will eventually cause all to be renewed by the Holy Ghost [ Titus 3:5] which we know is not the case, or His death was limited to only some, who will be renewed by the Holy Ghost or we deny the Truth of the accomplishment of His offering [death] that it hath perfected forever them He died for.
Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
The only way to be saved is by Grace, even believing is because of Grace, Ive showed that.
Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
You exaggerate. We are saved by grace through faith as in Eph. 2:8 There is nothing in Calvinism that says we are saved by grace alone. There is no grace unless there is faith first. They go hand in hand Neither can save with out the other. Did Christ save the Pharisee's? They were definitely elect. No! He didn't save them because they rejected Him they did not believe in Him Most Jews rejected Him. even the elect.If Calvinism is true all the elect would be saved but they aren't
MB
Dave G
Well-Known Member
I went from believing that Scripture taught faith before salvation,
to believing that it teaches Him saving people before ( Ephesians 1:4-5 ) they come to their belief ( Ephesians 1:13 ).
He has chosen them, exactly as the Scripture lays out in Ephesians 1, before the foundation of the world.
They are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus ( Ephesians 2:10 )...not a product of a cooperative effort.
Respectfully,
That is exactly how the Bible teaches that people believe on Christ...
because the Lord moves upon a person, and they then respond in belief of His every word.
To me, you have it the other way around and are understanding ( and teaching others ) that a person's salvation and favor with God are rewards gained by the merit of placing their trust in His Son,
not unmerited gifts given to them freely by God, whom they love because He first loved them ( 1 John 4:19 ).
This violates Romans 4:4, making God a debtor to do the will of men,
and violates Romans 11:5-6, mixing our efforts as sinful men in with His holy work of choosing someone and causing them to approach Him ( Psalms 65:4 ) by His gracious act of the new birth.
It saddens me that you are unable to see it now,
but perhaps someday you will, by His grace.
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Dave G
Well-Known Member
Amen.
But my question to you is, why are you looking at it ( or apparently looking at it ) as a formula?
It's not a method that one uses to "get saved", my friend.
One cannot perform a set of acts in order to gain God's favor...
That would be seeking to please God by our works, which we cannot, and never could, do.
That's why even the ability and privilege to believe and confess are given to us by God ( Philippians 1:29 )...
Because they are not products of a rebellious heart that God has never changed.
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Dave G
Well-Known Member
Again I say, "Amen".
However, from other Scriptures I clearly see that, like Lydia, God must open the heart ( Acts of the Apostles 16:14 ) for us to even hear and obey His words...
It is from that opened heart that God's elect ( the ones in verse 8 ,His precious children ), believe unto righteousness, and they then, with the mouth, confess Christ as Saviour and Lord of all.
Because the word is near them...in their hearts and in their minds:
" But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;" ( Romans 10:8 ).
Have you not read what Paul told us in the prior chapters ( Romans 8:28-30, Romans 9:13-24 ), why a person believes?
Have you not read that no man can come to Him, unless the Father draws them ( John 6:44 )?
That no man can come to Christ unless it is given to them of the Father to do so ( John 6:65 )?
That Jesus Christ only saves those who have been given to Him by His Father ( John 17:2 )?
That one must be a sheep to believe, as John 10:26-27 lays out?
I think you've missed the reasons why anyone calls upon the name of the Lord at all...
It's because they are His, and He has saved them.
Romans 10 tells us what God's people do when confronted with His words, sir...
it does not give unbelievers a "formula" by which they can approach the Lord and gain something from His hands.
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Dave G
Well-Known Member
Note how the Lord Himself puts it:
" Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.
43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.
44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
45 And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.
46 Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me?
47 He that is of God heareth God’s words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God." ( John 8:42-47 )
In the above, the Lord Jesus is telling the unbelieving Jews why they do not love Him and believe His words.
Because they are of their father the devil, and not of God.
He that is "of God" ( His elect, Christ's sheep and the ones given to Him by His Father in the preceding chapters like John 6 ) are the ones who receive His words....the ones who are not His, reject Him and His words.
Another example:
" And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed." ( Acts of the Apostles 13:48 ).
As many as were ordained to eternal life, believed...
Not all who heard the word of God.
The same is true today.
Vast multitudes of people who hear the word of God, turn their ears away from it.
But His people still hear and believe them.
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Dave G
Well-Known Member
I urge you to study the Scriptures deeply, my friend.
The reasons why people believe in their hearts and confess Christ with their mouths, are all there.
The contents of Romans 10 cannot and should not be disconnected from any other thing that God says, and that is what I see you doing...
Using a piece of what God's word says, out of context, to demonstrate how one can "get saved".
Paul has told us why people have believed on Christ in the preceding chapters, and what their condition was before the Lord called them out of darkness and into the light...Please see Romans 1, Romans 2, and Romans 3.
He has told us why people have believed in other epistles, and it all comes together to prove one thing:
Salvation and eternal life are gifts that cannot be earned in any way, shape or form.
They are given to men and women by a God that has loved them from before the foundation of the world, when He chose them and gave them to His Son.
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