The Atonement of Christ: What did it REALLY Achieve ? 9

[Silverhair]

Those who stand against God's grace in causing one to be saved always quote sentences out of context as prooftext to glorify themselves as the cause of their own salvation.
Unwittingly, they do the same thing that Satan does in quoting scripture. In so doing they deny the grace of God and praise the work of man.

@taisto you say the verses were quoted out of context so you must think that the context will change what those verses tell us. So show us where the context alters the meaning of those verses. I have provided numerous verses and you have yet to prove your point.

Here are verses you disagree with and say I have taken them out of context. Show how context changes the meaning Taisto. You make the claim now prove it.

But I do have a question for you Taisto, where are the verses that clearly show God causes one to believe? Remember context has to support your view.

 

[taisto]

He died for all, yet all are not saved, because all do not have faith in Christ.

Calvin was wrong.

I am arguing from the Bible, not from Calvins commentary.

Christ certainly died for all who believe, who are the children of God. He did not shed his blood needlessly for the damned.

All do not have faith in God, unless and until God causes them to believe.

Even you have admitted that you did not believe until God so moved you to believe. This is the teaching of the Bible without exception.

 

[taisto]

God calls all to repentance are you @taisto saying that all are saved. Are you a universalist?

Has God called the islander, where no missionary has ever shared the gospel, to repentance? If so, how does the Bible say they are called, since no one has gone (Romans 10)?

The only universalist is the one who claims that Jesus died for all humanity. You know I am not in your camp of universal atonement.

 

[taisto]

@taisto you say the verses were quoted out of context so you must think that the context will change what those verses tell us. So show us where the context alters the meaning of those verses. I have provided numerous verses and you have yet to prove your point.

Here are verses you disagree with and say I have taken them out of context. Show how context changes the meaning Taisto. You make the claim now prove it.

But I do have a question for you Taisto, where are the verses that clearly show God causes one to believe? Remember context has to support your view.

The whole of scripture, understood to be without contradiction, shows you your error. It is not always the writer's intention to go over the elementary points of salvation in every passage. Yet, it seems you miss the elementary truths as you quote without discernment.

 

[MrW]

You just said: "The Father thought it, the Son bought it, and the Holy Spirit wrought it, when He sought me."

"God called; I answered."

This is God causing you to believe.

You would NEVER have believed without God moving you to faith. Like Adam and Eve, you would have remained in hiding had God not called you out and clothed you in Christ's righteousness.

This is the theme of redemption from the garden to the new world. God redeems and we react in worship.

I disagree. I’ve no more to say, seeing you’re intent on rejecting Bible truth and accepting the errant ideas of failed men instead.

 

[taisto]

I disagree. I’ve no more to say, seeing you’re intent on rejecting Bible truth and accepting the errant ideas of failed men instead.

You're being disingenuous. I hold to Bible truth and you also hold to Bible truth. We have different interpretation of the same Bible passages. You think my interpretation is wrong and I think yours is wrong. I have provided ample support to my view and connected the view to the context of scripture. You have relied in scripture devoid of context and when I correct your context for you, you make up excuses.

 

[CJP69]

Has God called the islander, where no missionary has ever shared the gospel, to repentance? If so, how does the Bible say they are called, since no one has gone (Romans 10)?

Romans 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse,​

 

[taisto]

Romans 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse,​

Nature does not share the gospel of repentance. Nature reveals that there is a God. Paul's question of how can they hear if no one is sent still is relevant. In addition, Paul tells us that nature reveals God's existence, but man's response to God is always corrupt and it leads to many worshipping creation, not the Creator. As such, God either gives them up to their corruption, or God redeems them by his gracious, willful choice alone.

Thanks for sharing these verses as they strengthen my position.

 

[CJP69]

Nature does not share the gospel of repentance.

Of course it does!

I understand you have no problem with an arbitrary (i.e. unjust) god throwing people into Hell for no reason at all but my bible says that they are WITHOUT EXCUSE. If your doctrine was even close to correct, that would be a lie and the bible would be falsified inside of one single sentence in the first chapter of the most doctrinally important book in the New Testament.

Nature reveals that there is a God.

Your ignorance is astounding. It isn't just nature, first of all, but even if it were, it would show not simply that there is some sort of god out there somewhere. It shows THE God! The One God that is not merely real but alive, personal, relational, loving, righteous and just. And it isn't simply nature that shows them, it is God Himself, according to the text.

Paul's question of how can they hear if no one is sent still is relevant. In addition, Paul tells us that nature reveals God's existence, but man's response to God is always corrupt and it leads to many worshipping creation, not the Creator.

Your Calvinism is showing! If anyone worships creation, it isn't creation that caused it nor man's will but because your god predestined them to do so. Isn't that what you believe?

Further, the passage says NOTHING about "man's response is ALWAYS corrupt". Calvin taught that but it is entirely foreign to the bible. Indeed, it is antithetical to it. (See Ezekiel 18 (the whole chapter) - not to mention the entire book of Genesis and pretty nearly the entire rest of the bible for that matter.)

As such, God either gives them up to their corruption, or God redeems them by his gracious, willful choice alone.

Thank you for conceding the debate. I know, you don't see it nor can you be made to see it. You're deaf, dumb and blinded to the truth of scripture by your doctrine.

Your god is unjust. The God of scripture is two things (among other things, of course). He is the only true God and He is just. Therefore, your arbitrary god does not exist, no matter how much lip service you give to the bible or to your god's so called arbitrary "justice" as if that isn't an obvious contradiction.

Thanks for sharing these verses as they strengthen my position.

That's a laugh! Your mind is broken. Only in a twisted Calvinistic mind could any such claim be uttered. The passage does nothing less than falsify your entire religious worldview and that by a mere surface reading of the text that any third grade child could understand.

 

[taisto]

Of course it does!

I understand you have no problem with an arbitrary (i.e. unjust) god throwing people into Hell for no reason at all but my bible says that they are WITHOUT EXCUSE. If your doctrine was even close to correct, that would be a lie and the bible would be falsified inside of one single sentence in the first chapter of the most doctrinally important book in the New Testament.


Your ignorance is astounding. It isn't just nature, first of all, but even if it were, it would show not simply there is some sort of god out there somewhere. It shows THE God! The One God that is not merely real but alive, personal, relation, loving and just.


Your Calvinism is showing! If anyone worships creation, it isn't creation that caused it nor man's will but because your god predestined them to do so. Isn't that what you believe?

Further, the passage says NOTHING about "man's response is ALWAYS corrupt". Calvin taught that but it is entirely foreign to the bible. Indeed, it is antithetical to it. (See Ezekiel 18 (the whole chapter) - not to mention the entire book of Genesis and pretty nearly the entire rest of the bible for that matter.)


Thank you for conceding the debate. I know, you don't see it nor can you be made to see it. You're deaf, dumb and blinded to the truth of scripture by your doctrine.

Your god is unjust. The God of scripture is two things (among other things, of course). He is the only true God and He is just. Therefore, your god does not exist, no matter how much lip service you give to the bible or to your god's so called arbitrary "justice" as if that isn't an obvious contradiction.


That's a laugh! Your mind is broken. Only in a twisted Calvinistic mind could any such claim be uttered. The passage does nothing less than falsify your entire religious worldview and that by a mere surface reading of the text that any third grade child could understand.

Arbitrary, unjust God?
If you want fairness and justice, then every human being, you and me included, deserve to burn in the lake of fire for eternity. That removes arbitrary and unjust from the equation.

But what we desire is a merciful and gracious God.

What seems to get your goat is the fact that you are ENTIRELY at the mercy of God. If God chooses to treat you justly, you will burn in hell. If God chooses to redeem you, you will live in fellowship with God as his adopted child. The problem that irks you is that God's choice of being just or merciful is out of your control. If it were in your control, then you would earn your place by merited favor. But, it's out of your control and you are entirely at the mercy of God to determine whether he will graciously save you or not.

Since you are posting on this board, I make the assumption that God has extended His grace to you, showing you unmerited favor. In other words, you did nothing to deserve the grace and mercy that God has shown you.

That should humble you to your core. You did NOTHING, yet God, even when you were dead in your sins, made you alive with Christ.

Sadly, you are here, telling everyone you respond to how dumb they are in comparison to you. So, my suggestion is for you to eat a little humble pie and acknowledge that God wasn't being just when he saved you. He is being gracious and merciful to a person who deserves neither. Let that sink in.

 

[Silverhair]

I am arguing from the Bible, not from Calvins commentary.

Christ certainly died for all who believe, who are the children of God. He did not shed his blood needlessly for the damned.

All do not have faith in God, unless and until God causes them to believe.

Even you have admitted that you did not believe until God so moved you to believe. This is the teaching of the Bible without exception.

It really is not hard to refute what you say @taisto. I just have to quote scripture.

"Christ certainly died for all who believe, who are the children of God. He did not shed his blood needlessly for the damned."
Joh 3:17 Indeed, God did not send the Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Heb 2:9 but we do see Jesus, ...now crowned with glory and honor ...so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.
1Jn 2:2 and he is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.
1Ti 4:10 ...the living God, who is the Savior of all people, especially of those who believe.

You keep making your claims but do not show any text that supports you and yet you still deny clear scripture that proves you wrong. @taisto you keep proving that it is not the bible you believe but yourself. You have elevated yourself over the word of God.

 

[taisto]

It really is not hard to refute what you say @taisto. I just have to quote scripture.

"Christ certainly died for all who believe, who are the children of God. He did not shed his blood needlessly for the damned."
Joh 3:17 Indeed, God did not send the Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Heb 2:9 but we do see Jesus, ...now crowned with glory and honor ...so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.
1Jn 2:2 and he is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.
1Ti 4:10 ...the living God, who is the Savior of all people, especially of those who believe.

You keep making your claims but do not show any text that supports you and yet you still deny clear scripture that proves you wrong. @taisto you keep proving that it is not the bible you believe but yourself. You have elevated yourself over the word of God.

We notice how you only quote sentences out of context in order to avoid context. Your post here is a wonderful example of just that.
It's funny how you then think you are following God's word when you avoid the context of your verses. In fact, I have seen you quote less than a sentence and then think you have a biblical argument.

 

[Silverhair]

Has God called the islander, where no missionary has ever shared the gospel, to repentance? If so, how does the Bible say they are called, since no one has gone (Romans 10)?

The only universalist is the one who claims that Jesus died for all humanity. You know I am not in your camp of universal atonement.

You just keep digging a deeper hole all the time.
1Jn 2:2 and he is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.
Heb 2:9 but we do see Jesus, who for a little while was made lower than the angels, now crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.
1Ti 2:5 For there is one God; there is also one mediator between God and humankind, Christ Jesus, himself human,
1Ti 2:6 who gave himself a ransom for all-- this was attested at the right time.

You just continue to deny scripture. You should be getting tired of having your posts refuted by scripture but I doubt that the truth of the word of God has sunk in for you yet.

You keep posting the same denials all the time but you do not provide any verses the support your errant view.

 

[AustinC]

You just keep digging a deeper hole all the time.
1Jn 2:2 and he is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.
Heb 2:9 but we do see Jesus, who for a little while was made lower than the angels, now crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.
1Ti 2:5 For there is one God; there is also one mediator between God and humankind, Christ Jesus, himself human,
1Ti 2:6 who gave himself a ransom for all-- this was attested at the right time.

You just continue to deny scripture. You should be getting tired of having your posts refuted by scripture but I doubt that the truth of the word of God has sunk in for you yet.

You keep posting the same denials all the time but you do not provide any verses the support your errant view.

Happy New Year.
I see you're still at it, goading people with your humanism masquerading as truth. Quoting the Bible like a snake. Will you ever change?

 

[Silverhair]

We notice how you only quote sentences out of context in order to avoid context. Your post here is a wonderful example of just that.
It's funny how you then think you are following God's word when you avoid the context of your verses. In fact, I have seen you quote less than a sentence and then think you have a biblical argument.

@taisto you say the verses were quoted out of context so you must think that the context will change what those verses tell us. So show us where the context alters the meaning of those verses. I have provided numerous verses and you have yet to prove your point.

Here are verses you disagree with and say I have taken them out of context. Show how context changes the meaning Taisto. You make the claim now prove it.

But I do have a question for you Taisto, where are the verses that clearly show God causes one to believe?

"...the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes,..." Rom 1:16

"...Sirs, what must I do to be saved?" They said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household." Act 16:30-31

"In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise," Eph 1:13

Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom also we have obtained our introduction by faith into this grace in which we stand; and we exult in hope of the glory of God. Rom 5:1-2

"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. "For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. "He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. Joh 3:16-18

"For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. Joh 3:17

But we do see Him who was made for a little while lower than the angels, namely, Jesus, because of the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, so that by the grace of God He might taste death for everyone. Heb 2:9

and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world. 1Jn 2:2

For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers. 1Ti 4:10

So now I expect you to actually do some work and back up your claim.

 

[Silverhair]

Happy New Year.
I see you're still at it, goading people with your humanism masquerading as truth. Quoting the Bible like a snake. Will you ever change?

Ah nice to see that your still around Austin. I see you have not come to realize that your philosophy is wrong. So you like, Taisto, do not accept scripture as written.

I do wish you a Happy New Year Austin and pray that the true light of the gospel will shine into your heart as you accept the truth of scripture. God Bless you and yours.

 

[CJP69]

Arbitrary, unjust God?
If you want fairness and justice, then every human being, you and me included, deserve to burn in the lake of fire for eternity. That removes arbitrary and unjust from the equation.

Except for Christ!

Who voluntarily gave His own life, the Life of God Himself, in payment of that very debt!

But what we desire is a merciful and gracious God.

YES! That's where Jesus comes in. Get it?

What seems to get your goat is the fact that you are ENTIRELY at the mercy of God. If God chooses to treat you justly, you will burn in hell. If God chooses to redeem you, you will live in fellowship with God as his adopted child. The problem that irks you is that God's choice of being just or merciful is out of your control. If it were in your control, then you would earn your place by merited favor. But, it's out of your control and you are entirely at the mercy of God to determine whether he will graciously save you or not.

You Calvinists shoot yourselves in the theological foot almost on cue!

Mercy and Justice are NOT the opposites your doctrine would pretend them to be. God is ABSOLUTELY just! He does not choose between justice and mercy! He CHOSE to pay the price it took to accomplish both! Indeed, the price He paid is sufficient to pay the price for all of mankind many times over. It is of INFINITE value and it paid an infinite debt, which is why it had to be God's life. He's way wiser than you or Calvin!

Since you are posting on this board, I make the assumption that God has extended His grace to you, showing you unmerited favor. In other words, you did nothing to deserve the grace and mercy that God has shown you.

I am saved because I believe not merely that God exists but that He became a man (so much for "immutability"!), that He willingly died for sin (oh! There's goes immutability again) and then rose from the dead. (Too bad Calvin didn't bother reading any one of the gospels before going with that whole immutability idea.)

John 3: 36 He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”

Roman 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
That should humble you to your core. You did NOTHING, yet God, even when you were dead in your sins, made you alive with Christ.​

Sadly, you are here, telling everyone you respond to how dumb they are in comparison to you.

Actually, that's mostly just you - so far.

So, my suggestion is for you to eat a little humble pie and acknowledge that God wasn't being just when he saved you.

Blasphemy! - As expected from a Calvinist.

He is being gracious and merciful to a person who deserves neither. Let that sink in.

Amen! I would never suggest otherwise. I no more earned the salvation God gifted to me than I earned the pocket watches I was given last week for Christmas from my mother. The gifts were freely offered and gratefully accepted. I did nothing to deserve nor do I owe either God or my mother anything in exchange for the gifts they've given me. (i.e. that's why it's accurate to call them gifts!)

Romans 4:5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness,​

Now, lets all watch to see how fast Taisto runs totally out of substance and resorts to more blatant insults than the implied one's he included in this post. Maybe he'll surprise us all and actually engage the debate for more than one post! (Don't hold your breath though!)

 

[CJP69]

@taisto you say the verses were quoted out of context so you must think that the context will change what those verses tell us. So show us where the context alters the meaning of those verses. I have provided numerous verses and you have yet to prove your point.

Here are verses you disagree with and say I have taken them out of context. Show how context changes the meaning Taisto. You make the claim now prove it.

But I do have a question for you Taisto, where are the verses that clearly show God causes one to believe?

"...the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes,..." Rom 1:16

"...Sirs, what must I do to be saved?" They said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household." Act 16:30-31

"In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise," Eph 1:13

Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom also we have obtained our introduction by faith into this grace in which we stand; and we exult in hope of the glory of God. Rom 5:1-2

"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. "For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. "He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. Joh 3:16-18

"For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. Joh 3:17

But we do see Him who was made for a little while lower than the angels, namely, Jesus, because of the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, so that by the grace of God He might taste death for everyone. Heb 2:9

and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world. 1Jn 2:2

For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers. 1Ti 4:10

So now I expect you to actually do some work and back up your claim.

He won't even try!!

 

[CJP69]

Happy New Year.
I see you're still at it, goading people with your humanism masquerading as truth. Quoting the Bible like a snake. Will you ever change?

I WILL!!!!

All you have to do is convince me through sound reason and the plain reading of scripture!

Ready? Go!

 

[taisto]

@taisto you say the verses were quoted out of context so you must think that the context will change what those verses tell us. So show us where the context alters the meaning of those verses. I have provided numerous verses and you have yet to prove your point.

Here are verses you disagree with and say I have taken them out of context. Show how context changes the meaning Taisto. You make the claim now prove it.

But I do have a question for you Taisto, where are the verses that clearly show God causes one to believe?

"...the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes,..." Rom 1:16

"...Sirs, what must I do to be saved?" They said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household." Act 16:30-31

"In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise," Eph 1:13

Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom also we have obtained our introduction by faith into this grace in which we stand; and we exult in hope of the glory of God. Rom 5:1-2

"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. "For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. "He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. Joh 3:16-18

"For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. Joh 3:17

But we do see Him who was made for a little while lower than the angels, namely, Jesus, because of the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, so that by the grace of God He might taste death for everyone. Heb 2:9

and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world. 1Jn 2:2

For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers. 1Ti 4:10

So now I expect you to actually do some work and back up your claim.

These verses are all wonderful, especially in the context in which they are written. Even greater is that they all strengthen my view that God is the gracious cause of our salvation. Thank you for sharing. I do wish you understood how gracious God has been toward you.