The Atonement of Christ: What did it REALLY Achieve ? 9

[kyredneck]

all who attempt to be justified by their works are damned.

If that's all you get from Ro 2, I take back the compliment, "you're pretty good with your sword". You're just another slave to your dogma.

Works motif in Ro 2:

The 'works', both good and bad, are coming from the hearts.

Those [circumcised with the law written upon] hearts that are producing good works are justified, and God renders to them eternal life.

The hard and impenitent heart treasurest up wrath, upon every soul of man that worketh evil.

Then there's the 'true Jew' motif.

Then there's that which Paul does in several other places, "God is no respecter of persons". It applies to Jew and Gentile alike.

 

[Silverhair]

Same applies to you, if you believe Christ died for the sins of people who shall yet die in their sins.

Your not addressing the question BF. Does that mean that you have no answer or you just do not want to admit that you have no answer?

 

[Silverhair]

Honestly. None of those verses state: "it is because of man’s discernment that they can be saved."

Man is not saved because he has discernment @taisto. One could discern/understand what the gospel message meant but that does not mean that they will accept it and trust in Christ Jesus for their salvation. One is only saved by God when they respond in belief to the gospel message they have heard.

FYI discernment means: the faculty of discerning; discrimination; acuteness of judgment and understanding.
So yes the bible is quite clear that it is because of man's discernment/understanding of the gospel message that he can be saved. The fact that man has to respond with faith before God will save them does not fit your Calvinist view so you have to reject any scripture that points that out.

What do you not understand about
In Him,
you also, after listening to the message of truth,
the gospel of your salvation—
having also believed,
you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, Eph 1:13 NASB

Those that heard the gospel had to discern the truth of the message before they believed and were sealed by the Holy Spirit.

Perhaps you will follow it better if you read it in the NLT which you tend to use as your go to translation.
And now
you Gentiles have also heard the truth,
the Good News that God saves you.
And when you believed in Christ,
He identified you as His own by giving you the Holy Spirit,
whom He promised long ago. Eph 1:13 NLT

 

[taisto]

Man is not saved because he has discernment @taisto. One could discern/understand what the gospel message meant but that does not mean that they will accept it and trust in Christ Jesus for their salvation. One is only saved by God when they respond in belief to the gospel message they have heard.

FYI discernment means: the faculty of discerning; discrimination; acuteness of judgment and understanding.
So yes the bible is quite clear that it is because of man's discernment/understanding of the gospel message that he can be saved. The fact that man has to respond with faith before God will save them does not fit your Calvinist view so you have to reject any scripture that points that out.

What do you not understand about
In Him,
you also, after listening to the message of truth,
the gospel of your salvation—
having also believed,
you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, Eph 1:13 NASB

Those that heard the gospel had to discern the truth of the message before they believed and were sealed by the Holy Spirit.

Perhaps you will follow it better if you read it in the NLT which you tend to use as your go to translation.
And now
you Gentiles have also heard the truth,
the Good News that God saves you.
And when you believed in Christ,
He identified you as His own by giving you the Holy Spirit,
whom He promised long ago. Eph 1:13 NLT

I quoted your exact words. Now you deny your own words.

When a person responds to the gospel message they hear, it is precisely because God is moving them to respond. They believe because God has caused them to believe.

But you say, "it is because of man’s discernment that they can be saved."

Your statement is untrue. You, yourself, are attempting to walk that statement back.

 

[Silverhair]

I quoted your exact words. Now you deny your own words.

When a person responds to the gospel message they hear, it is precisely because God is moving them to respond. They believe because God has caused them to believe.

But you say, "it is because of man’s discernment that they can be saved."

Your statement is untrue. You, yourself, are attempting to walk that statement back.

No, but you are trying to deny the truth of scripture. It is not the discernment that saves but if the person does not exercise discernment then they will not be saved will they. You struggle way to hard in your attempt to deny what the bible says.

So according to you God has to make a person believe so you are making God responsible for all those that end up in hell because He did not cause them to believe. That is unless you want to walk back your statement and admit that the person can actually exercise discernment in regard to the gospel message and freely trust in or reject salvation.

 

[Brightfame52]

Christs death was a perfect redemptive work, hence He was brought from the dead, and all the members of His Body, His Church or His Sheep, whose sins He bare, they are freely Justified through that redemption which is in His Blood Rom 3:24

24 being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

He was raised again from the dead because of their Justification Rom 4:25

25 who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

His Death accomplished their Justification before God !73

 

[taisto]

No, but you are trying to deny the truth of scripture. It is not the discernment that saves but if the person does not exercise discernment then they will not be saved will they. You struggle way to hard in your attempt to deny what the bible says.

So according to you God has to make a person believe so you are making God responsible for all those that end up in hell because He did not cause them to believe. That is unless you want to walk back your statement and admit that the person can actually exercise discernment in regard to the gospel message and freely trust in or reject salvation.

You state:
"if the person does not exercise discernment then they will not be saved will they."

By your statement, no person with a severe cognitive disability could ever be saved.

Humans are fully responsible for their wickedness. By law, all humans should perish in hell. God will be both just and loving in His righteous condemnation. God is never the cause of a person going to hell. Mankind, like Adam and Eve is fully responsible for that.

Like Adam and Eve, we will not be saved without God graciously choosing to save us according to His will. Our salvation is dependent upon God's grace, not upon our cognitive decision skills, as you teach.

 

[Silverhair]

You state:
"if the person does not exercise discernment then they will not be saved will they."

By your statement, no person with a severe cognitive disability could ever be saved.

Humans are fully responsible for their wickedness. By law, all humans should perish in hell. God will be both just and loving in His righteous condemnation. God is never the cause of a person going to hell. Mankind, like Adam and Eve is fully responsible for that.

Like Adam and Eve, we will not be saved without God graciously choosing to save us according to His will. Our salvation is dependent upon God's grace, not upon our cognitive decision skills, as you teach.

@taisto you struggle so hard to disprove anything that you disagree with that it shows how shaky your view is. Do you have cognitive decision skills, did you not use them when you trusted in God for your salvation? As for those that have a cognitive disability do you not trust God to be loving, I do.But according to you God has to cause people to believe so if that was His will to cause those with cognitive disabilities to believe who are you to say He could not.

Were you not the one that said "They believe because God has caused them to believe" so man has not choice in the matter. If God does not cause them to believe then they are condemned because He did not cause them to believe. So you have made God responsible for all those that are lost.

The problem you face is you want man to be responsible for the choices they make and then say that God has to cause them to make the most important choice of choosing to trust in Christ Jesus for their salvation. You want to have your cake and eat it to. Your theology is illogical.

 

[taisto]

@taisto you struggle so hard to disprove anything that you disagree with that it shows how shaky your view is. Do you have cognitive decision skills, did you not use them when you trusted in God for your salvation? As for those that have a cognitive disability do you not trust God to be loving, I do.But according to you God has to cause people to believe so if that was His will to cause those with cognitive disabilities to believe who are you to say He could not.

Were you not the one that said "They believe because God has caused them to believe" so man has not choice in the matter. If God does not cause them to believe then they are condemned because He did not cause them to believe. So you have made God responsible for all those that are lost.

The problem you face is you want man to be responsible for the choices they make and then say that God has to cause them to make the most important choice of choosing to trust in Christ Jesus for their salvation. You want to have your cake and eat it to. Your theology is illogical.

There is no problem with mankind being fully responsible for their sins and also being fully at the mercy and grace of God to receive pardon from these sins.

Neither you nor I nor anyone can choose to get pardoned by their own cognitive decision. God must choose to pardon them. Therefore God is the cause of our belief in the fact that we are indeed pardoned.

Silverhair, please stop trying to take credit for that which only God could do for you.

 

[Silverhair]

There is no problem with mankind being fully responsible for their sins and also being fully at the mercy and grace of God to receive pardon from these sins.

Neither you nor I nor anyone can choose to get pardoned by their own cognitive decision. God must choose to pardon them. Therefore God is the cause of our belief in the fact that we are indeed pardoned.

Silverhair, please stop trying to take credit for that which only God could do for you.

Taisto how am I taking credit for what God does? The bible says that God will save those that believe in His son so when I or anyone else actually believes the gospel message how is that taking credit?

Even your go to translation tells you that. "...this Good News about Christ. It is the power of God at work, saving everyone who believes..." Rom 1:16 NLT

"And now you Gentiles have also heard the truth, the Good News that God saves you. And when you believed in Christ, He identified you as His own by giving you the Holy Spirit, whom He promised long ago." Eph 1:13 NLT

I agree that God must choose to save people and He has chosen to save those that freely trust in His son. "God saved you by His grace when you believed." Eph 2:8 NLT

Have I ever said I or anyone else can save themselves? NO. Taisto you said that "God is the cause of our belief" and yet you deny that those He does not cause to believe would logically be condemned with no chance of salvation.

You keep putting the cart before the horse. You have God pardon a person before He causes them to believe.

Paul tells us
"Everyone who calls on the name of the LORD will be saved." Rom 10:13 NLT
So you need to answer the question, why would they call on God to save them?

But once again your go to translation gives the answer and points out your error.
But how can they call on Him to save them unless they believe in Him?
And how can they believe in Him if they have never heard about Him?
And how can they hear about Him unless someone tells them? Rom 10:14 NLT

So we see that it is those that hear and believe the gospel message that will be saved. What we do not see is your idea that God causes them to believe.

 

[taisto]

God is the cause of any person's belief. Without God's direct, gracious, work in redeeming a person, that person will never, naturally, choose God. Romans 1 and Romans 3 are so very clear on this issue. Ephesians 1 and Ephesians 2 also clearly show God doing the work.

Our brother wants to claim his own intellect as the cause of his salvation. In so doing he inadvertently denies God's gracious work in saving him. This is quite sad that he doesn't grasp how much God has done for him.

 

[Silverhair]

God is the cause of any person's belief. Without God's direct, gracious, work in redeeming a person, that person will never, naturally, choose God. Romans 1 and Romans 3 are so very clear on this issue. Ephesians 1 and Ephesians 2 also clearly show God doing the work.

Our brother wants to claim his own intellect as the cause of his salvation. In so doing he inadvertently denies God's gracious work in saving him. This is quite sad that he doesn't grasp how much God has done for him.

@taisto so you do not even want to believe your go to translation, the NLT. You have got your head stuck in the sand. If you will not believe the text of the bible what will you believe?

You keep saying these things yet you show no scripture that supports your view. You are following a man made philosophy that has no scriptural support. Your approach seems to be to throw mud at the wall and hope something sticks.

I have given you scripture but you are being willfully blind. What do you not understand about the scripture that I have given you in this and many other posts? Are you having a problem grasping the meaning of the words? I only ask because I really want you to understand the truth of scripture as your eternal future depends upon it.

 

[Brightfame52]

It brings many Sons to Glory !

Another accomplishment of the death of Christ, it brings many sons to Glory Heb 2:9-10

9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

10For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.

Folks the every man here in this context who Christ tasted death for, are by that, being brought to Glory, that is every man He died for in each successive generation and from each ethnic group. If someone Christ died for doesn't be brought to eternal glory, something failed in His death, which of course can never be the case ! 73

 

[Silverhair]

It brings many Sons to Glory !

Another accomplishment of the death of Christ, it brings many sons to Glory Heb 2:9-10

9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

10For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.

Folks the every man here in this context who Christ tasted death for, are by that, being brought to Glory, that is every man He died for in each successive generation and from each ethnic group. If someone Christ died for doesn't be brought to eternal glory, something failed in His death, which of course can never be the case ! 73

@Brightfame52 you continue to hold to your false ideas about who can be saved and ignore what the bible tells you.

"For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. Joh 3:17 NASB

But we do see Him who was made for a little while lower than the angels, namely, Jesus, because of the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, so that by the grace of God He might taste death for everyone. Heb 2:9 NASB

and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world. 1Jn 2:2 NASB

For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers. 1Ti 4:10 NASB

BF the death of Christ was sufficient to provide for the salvation of all men but it is only efficient for those that freely trust in the risen Christ. That is why we preach the death burial and resurrection of Christ Jesus. "...I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures,.." 1Co 15:1-4 NASB
The death of Christ saved no one, if He is still in the tomb, He cannot be an object of our faith.
If Christ is not risen, you have no evidence of God’s having accepted his mediation for you, or, consequently, of your being justified.
"and if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is vain, your faith also is vain." 1Co 15:14 NASB

 

[taisto]

@taisto so you do not even want to believe your go to translation, the NLT. You have got your head stuck in the sand. If you will not believe the text of the bible what will you believe?

Every translation says the same thing. Why won't you believe what God tells you?

You keep saying these things yet you show no scripture that supports your view. You are following a man made philosophy that has no scriptural support. Your approach seems to be to throw mud at the wall and hope something sticks.

I have provided scripture. Why won't you believe what God tells you?

I have given you scripture but you are being willfully blind. What do you not understand about the scripture that I have given you in this and many other posts? Are you having a problem grasping the meaning of the words? I only ask because I really want you to understand the truth of scripture as your eternal future depends upon it.

Your scripture is fine. Your interpretation of the scripture is inaccurate. You lift yourself above your station and attempt to make God less than what He is in regard to your redemption.

Your revolt against God's authority in your life is obvious from the way you keep denying his saving power over your life.

 

[MrW]

Every translation says the same thing. Why won't you believe what God tells you?


I have provided scripture. Why won't you believe what God tells you?


Your scripture is fine. Your interpretation of the scripture is inaccurate. You lift yourself above your station and attempt to make God less than what He is in regard to your redemption.

Your revolt against God's authority in your life is obvious from the way you keep denying his saving power over your life.

Wrong, wrong, wrong. You falsely accuse a brother who is patiently and repeatedly telling you the truth.

 

[taisto]

Wrong, wrong, wrong. You falsely accuse a brother who is patiently and repeatedly telling you the truth.

Wrong, wrong, wrong.
I show your doppelganger that he fails to acknowledge that God alone caused him to believe by providing the scriptural proof that he would be damned, but for the gracious work of God in saving him.
Every scripture verse provided by your doppelganger is a belief that God caused because God chose to graciously save.

Yet, you and he persist in denying the work of God while you promote your own intellect as the cause. In this you ought to be ashamed, yet here you are doubling down on your fleshly decision as the cause.

 

[MrW]

God gave EVERYONE the power to believe or to refuse to believe. It’s on each person’s head what they do with that power of choice.

John 1:
11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

“…as many as…”, denotes choice and personal responsibility. People aren’t machines. They weigh the evidence against desires, and then they make a choice.

 

[Silverhair]

Every translation says the same thing. Why won't you believe what God tells you?


I have provided scripture. Why won't you believe what God tells you?


Your scripture is fine. Your interpretation of the scripture is inaccurate. You lift yourself above your station and attempt to make God less than what He is in regard to your redemption.

Your revolt against God's authority in your life is obvious from the way you keep denying his saving power over your life.

You keep saying my "interpretation of the scripture is inaccurate" but you have yet to show where my understanding is wrong. Here are some of the verses that you say I got wrong so show me what I got wrong about them.

Taisto how am I taking credit for what God does? The bible says that God will save those that believe in His son so when I or anyone else actually believes the gospel message how is that taking credit?

Even your go to translation tells you that. "...this Good News about Christ. It is the power of God at work, saving everyone who believes..." Rom 1:16 NLT

"And now you Gentiles have also heard the truth, the Good News that God saves you. And when you believed in Christ, He identified you as His own by giving you the Holy Spirit, whom He promised long ago." Eph 1:13 NLT

I agree that God must choose to save people and He has chosen to save those that freely trust in His son. "God saved you by His grace when you believed." Eph 2:8 NLT

Have I ever said I or anyone else can save themselves? NO. Taisto you said that "God is the cause of our belief" and yet you deny that those He does not cause to believe would logically be condemned with no chance of salvation.

You keep putting the cart before the horse. You have God pardon a person before He causes them to believe.

Paul tells us
"Everyone who calls on the name of the LORD will be saved." Rom 10:13 NLT
So you need to answer the question, why would they call on God to save them?

But once again your go to translation gives the answer and points out your error.
But how can they call on Him to save them unless they believe in Him?
And how can they believe in Him if they have never heard about Him?
And how can they hear about Him unless someone tells them? Rom 10:14 NLT

So we see that it is those that hear and believe the gospel message that will be saved. What we do not see is your idea that God causes them to believe.

The only response that we get from you is that you do not agree but you never show from scripture why you do. Saying look at chapter X does not prove your point. What it does is show that you are unable to support your case.

You called me a doppleganger of Mr.W is that because we both disagree with your errant view and use scripture to point out your error?

The difference between us Taisto is that I use scripture to point out your errors and you just tell me to trust what you say.

 

[taisto]

You keep saying my "interpretation of the scripture is inaccurate" but you have yet to show where my understanding is wrong. Here are some of the verses that you say I got wrong so show me what I got wrong about them.

Taisto how am I taking credit for what God does? The bible says that God will save those that believe in His son so when I or anyone else actually believes the gospel message how is that taking credit?

Even your go to translation tells you that. "...this Good News about Christ. It is the power of God at work, saving everyone who believes..." Rom 1:16 NLT

"And now you Gentiles have also heard the truth, the Good News that God saves you. And when you believed in Christ, He identified you as His own by giving you the Holy Spirit, whom He promised long ago." Eph 1:13 NLT

I agree that God must choose to save people and He has chosen to save those that freely trust in His son. "God saved you by His grace when you believed." Eph 2:8 NLT

Have I ever said I or anyone else can save themselves? NO. Taisto you said that "God is the cause of our belief" and yet you deny that those He does not cause to believe would logically be condemned with no chance of salvation.

You keep putting the cart before the horse. You have God pardon a person before He causes them to believe.

Paul tells us
"Everyone who calls on the name of the LORD will be saved." Rom 10:13 NLT
So you need to answer the question, why would they call on God to save them?

But once again your go to translation gives the answer and points out your error.
But how can they call on Him to save them unless they believe in Him?
And how can they believe in Him if they have never heard about Him?
And how can they hear about Him unless someone tells them? Rom 10:14 NLT

So we see that it is those that hear and believe the gospel message that will be saved. What we do not see is your idea that God causes them to believe.

The only response that we get from you is that you do not agree but you never show from scripture why you do. Saying look at chapter X does not prove your point. What it does is show that you are unable to support your case.

You called me a doppleganger of Mr.W is that because we both disagree with your errant view and use scripture to point out your error?

The difference between us Taisto is that I use scripture to point out your errors and you just tell me to trust what you say.

I have shown you on multiple posts. Open your eyes.