Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
Its about the elect. Also you dont believe in the saving efficacy of Christs death. You condition salvation on man.
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The Atonement of Christ: What did it REALLY Achieve ? 9
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37818
Well-Known Member
Then that's what you are doing here according to Romans 2:1, ". . . Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things. . . ."
I only quoted the word of God in Colossians 1:20. You only accused.
The Lord Jesus knew it all, but He didn’t tell it all. He said the Holy Spirit would tell us more, and He did through the apostles.
If Christ died only for the elect, then why did John say He died not for our sins only but for the sins of the whole world?
Why did Peter and Paul tell us more?
YES, Christ died for His sheep. Amen! they are certainly included in “the whole world”.
Therefore, Christ died for His sheep, and not for His sheep only, but also for the whole world. John said so: “Not for our sins only, but also for the sins of the whole world.”
Remember the same John recorded the words of Christ in his Gospel, and wrote this verse also. If John, who knew Christ personally on earth, and recorded that Christ died for His sheep, if this John meant that Christ only died for His sheep, and no one else, then he would’ve said Christ died for our sins only and not for the sins of the whole world or else he would’ve said that Christ died only for the sins of the elect and not for the whole world.
When he said whole world, he meant whole world. If he meant only elect, he would’ve said only elect.
If Christ died only for the elect, then why did John say He died not for our sins only but for the sins of the whole world?
Why did Peter and Paul tell us more?
YES, Christ died for His sheep. Amen! they are certainly included in “the whole world”.
Therefore, Christ died for His sheep, and not for His sheep only, but also for the whole world. John said so: “Not for our sins only, but also for the sins of the whole world.”
Remember the same John recorded the words of Christ in his Gospel, and wrote this verse also. If John, who knew Christ personally on earth, and recorded that Christ died for His sheep, if this John meant that Christ only died for His sheep, and no one else, then he would’ve said Christ died for our sins only and not for the sins of the whole world or else he would’ve said that Christ died only for the sins of the elect and not for the whole world.
When he said whole world, he meant whole world. If he meant only elect, he would’ve said only elect.
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Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
You are leaving out a critical and Biblical element..
- "Whosoever believeth in Him will not perish....." John 3:15 AND 16 [says it twice]
- "God wants NONE to perish and ALL to come to repentance." 2 Peter 3:9. Repentance is not forced upon mankind. Our will to repent is inside of God's Sovereignty. He gives us the opportunity. Both Cain and the rich young ruler are examples of the rejection of God's grace.
- Many times over, the Bible says that those who believe will not perish
Since I butted in, I will allow it to go to 15 pages.
I will close it then but you can start another.
The difference I see is that the reformed believe that God forces belief or "makes them willing" on people and the non-reformed believe that God give the person the choice to believe or not.
We will never see eye to eye on this. And that bothers me.
Carry on until page 15. Good day.
Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
Made Righteous by His Faithfulness/Obedience !
As the Surety of His People, His Sheep, His Suretyship obedience/faithfulness consiteth in these two regards for them #1 The debt they owed to perfect obedience to the law, precepts of God and #2 and the debt they owed to the violation of Gods Law, hence the suffering and penalty due. 72
As the Surety of His People, His Sheep, His Suretyship obedience/faithfulness consiteth in these two regards for them #1 The debt they owed to perfect obedience to the law, precepts of God and #2 and the debt they owed to the violation of Gods Law, hence the suffering and penalty due. 72
Actually I just proved I believe more than you do. You think Christ’s sacrifice was good enough for a few but not good enough for all. I believe it was good enough for everyone.
Everyone is not saved for one reason only—everyone does not believe on Christ.
Hebrews 4:2 (KJV)
For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard [it].
Hebrews 3:19 (KJV)
So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.
Hebrews 4:6 (KJV)
Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief.
I’m finished with this thread.
Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
37818
Well-Known Member
Only in the mind of one who wrongly believes what would have to be really a false view of universalism.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
Question for you @Brightfame52, where do you find the concept of "saving efficacy of Christ" in the bible? I see where Christ will save those that believe the gospel message and we see that those that do not believe are condemned/lost. But your "saving efficacy" concept is missing, it seems to be something that you have made up in support of your Calvinism.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
I know it must be a shock to you @Brightfame52 but the bible is actually quite clear on this. Whether God saves or does not save someone is because of man's response to the gospel message. Rom 1:16 "...the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes..."
The answer is right there in the bible, you just have to read and trust it Joh 3:18
Those who believe in him {Christ} are not condemned; [the ones that hear and believe the gospel message]
but those who do not believe are condemned already, [they reject the gospel message]
{why} because they have not believed in the name of the only Son of God.
We even see what God's purpose was for sending Christ to us.
For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world,
but that the world might be saved through Him. Joh 3:17
Who are those who believe?
Certainly it is not those who are left to their own discernment. Romans 1 tells us that no one believes on their own. Romans 2 tells us that a person must perfectly keep the law to be justified by works. Romans 3 tells us that no one seeks after God.
So, who are those who believe?
Jesus replied, “I have already told you, and you don’t believe me. The proof is the work I do in my Father’s name. But you don’t believe me because you are not my sheep. My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish. No one can snatch them away from me, for my Father has given them to me, and he is more powerful than anyone else. No one can snatch them from the Father’s hand.
(John 10:25-29)
Certainly it is not those who are left to their own discernment. Romans 1 tells us that no one believes on their own. Romans 2 tells us that a person must perfectly keep the law to be justified by works. Romans 3 tells us that no one seeks after God.
So, who are those who believe?
Jesus replied, “I have already told you, and you don’t believe me. The proof is the work I do in my Father’s name. But you don’t believe me because you are not my sheep. My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish. No one can snatch them away from me, for my Father has given them to me, and he is more powerful than anyone else. No one can snatch them from the Father’s hand.
(John 10:25-29)
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
The bible is clear that it is because of man’s discernment that they can be saved.
Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
Rom 1:17 For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, "BUT THE RIGHTEOUS man SHALL LIVE BY FAITH."
And we see this further stated in
Eph 1:13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,
I agree that none can be saved by keeping the law. That is why the bible tells us “...by grace you have been saved through faith...” Eph 2:8
Salvation can not be earned by keeping the law it is a gift of God to those that believe.
You stopped short in your reading of Romans 3. If you had continued reading you would have found:
The Righteousness of God Through Faith
Rom 3:21 But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets,
Rom 3:22 even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction;
Rom 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
Rom 3:24 being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;
Rom 3:25 whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed;
Rom 3:26 for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.
So what we find is scripture is that those that hear and believe the gospel message will be saved. Rom 10:17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ. Sure seems like God expects man to seek Him and exercise discernment.
Hogwash.
"That's not in the context, at all. In fact, those with circumcised hearts with the law written upon it are 'doing the law' and are justified.
13 for not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified:
14 (for when Gentiles that have not the law do by nature the things of the law, these, not having the law, are the law unto themselves;
15 in that they show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness therewith, and their thoughts one with another accusing or else excusing them); Ro 2"
Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
Same applies to you, if you believe Christ died for the sins of people who shall yet die in their sins.
Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
Honestly. None of those verses state: "it is because of man’s discernment that they can be saved."
The context in front of your quote shows that all who attempt to be justified by their works are damned.
(Romans 2:5-12)
But because you are stubborn and refuse to turn from your sin, you are storing up terrible punishment for yourself. For a day of anger is coming, when God’s righteous judgment will be revealed. He will judge everyone according to what they have done. He will give eternal life to those who keep on doing good, seeking after the glory and honor and immortality that God offers. But he will pour out his anger and wrath on those who live for themselves, who refuse to obey the truth and instead live lives of wickedness. There will be trouble and calamity for everyone who keeps on doing what is evil—for the Jew first and also for the Gentile. But there will be glory and honor and peace from God for all who do good—for the Jew first and also for the Gentile. For God does not show favoritism. When the Gentiles sin, they will be destroyed, even though they never had God’s written law. And the Jews, who do have God’s law, will be judged by that law when they fail to obey it.
Paul is never stating that a person will be justified by their works. He is making an 11 chapter argument that a person is justified by faith and it is faith that does the work of righteousness.
37818
Well-Known Member
Utter nonsense.
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