The Atonement of Christ: What did it REALLY Achieve ? 9

[taisto]

God gave EVERYONE the power to believe or to refuse to believe. It’s on each person’s head what they do with that power of choice.

John 1:
11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

“…as many as…”, denotes choice and personal responsibility. People aren’t machines. They weigh the evidence against desires, and then they make a choice.

Thus, in your view, God is not needed. You get all the glory and praise.

 

[Silverhair]

I have shown you on multiple posts. Open your eyes.

@taisto why do you continue to ignore scripture. If you think you are right then show me where I am wrong in the scripture I posted.

What you keep saying is trust me but you do not provide any scripture that supports your view but you do deny scripture that shows you are in error. I gave you the verses that you say I do not understand so show us the correct understanding. What words or meanings are you going to change so that they support you?

Rom 1:16 NLT, Eph 1:13 NLT, Eph 2:8 NLT, Rom 10:13 NLT, Rom 10:14 NLT It is easy for you to sit there and say I got them wrong but it is another thing for you to show where I got them wrong.

So to repeat what you said Taisto "Open your eyes."

 

[Silverhair]

Thus, in your view, God is not needed. You get all the glory and praise.

Mr.W posted this:
God gave EVERYONE the power to believe or to refuse to believe. It’s on each person’s head what they do with that power of choice.

John 1:
11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

“…as many as…”, denotes choice and personal responsibility. People aren’t machines. They weigh the evidence against desires, and then they make a choice.


So you Taisto just ignore scripture. Got it. Not surprisingly you do not even want to trust what the Lord Jesus has said because it does not fit your philosophy.

I have to ask Taisto, do you have a comprehension problem because you do seem to miss what scripture says and come up with the most off the wall comments I have seen.

Both MrW and I have attempted to point you in the right direction but you just refuse to accept what the bible clearly says. Through your continued deny of scripture you have shown that truth is not what you seek. You want to follow a man made philosophy, so be it.

 

[taisto]

Mr.W posted this:
God gave EVERYONE the power to believe or to refuse to believe. It’s on each person’s head what they do with that power of choice.

John 1:
11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

“…as many as…”, denotes choice and personal responsibility. People aren’t machines. They weigh the evidence against desires, and then they make a choice.


So you Taisto just ignore scripture. Got it. Not surprisingly you do not even want to trust what the Lord Jesus has said because it does not fit your philosophy.

I have to ask Taisto, do you have a comprehension problem because you do seem to miss what scripture says and come up with the most off the wall comments I have seen.

Both MrW and I have attempted to point you in the right direction but you just refuse to accept what the bible clearly says. Through your continued deny of scripture you have shown that truth is not what you seek. You want to follow a man made philosophy, so be it.

You imagine you are going in the right direction. You and your doppelganger have both lifted up yourselves as primary in your salvation. You ignore all scripture that shows you that God caused you to believe and you only quote verses that don't explicitly tell you that God saved you by grace even when you were dead.

There is nothing to say to either of you since you demand to be primary and God secondary in your salvation.

 

[Silverhair]

You imagine you are going in the right direction. You and your doppelganger have both lifted up yourselves as primary in your salvation. You ignore all scripture that shows you that God caused you to believe and you only quote verses that don't explicitly tell you that God saved you by grace even when you were dead.

There is nothing to say to either of you since you demand to be primary and God secondary in your salvation.

It is a shame that you are so stubborn that you will not humble yourself and trust what the bible says. You can not even admit that under your theological view if God has to cause you to trust in Him then all those that do not trust in Him, as He has not caused them to do so, have the best excuse going for rejecting God. God did not cause them to do so. That is the reality of your errant view and you are so blind that you can not even see it or perhaps you do see it and just prefer to ignore it. Either way it just shows how unrealistic and unbiblical your view is.

I had hoped that by pointing out your error and directing you to scripture that shows you your error you would trust what the bible says and trust in the word of God. But it seems such is not the case. Perhaps through further study you will come to see the truth in scripture that God saves those that have trusted in His son.

 

[taisto]

It is a shame that you are so stubborn that you will not humble yourself and trust what the bible says. You can not even admit that under your theological view if God has to cause you to trust in Him then all those that do not trust in Him, as He has not caused them to do so, have the best excuse going for rejecting God. God did not cause them to do so. That is the reality of your errant view and you are so blind that you can not even see it or perhaps you do see it and just prefer to ignore it. Either way it just shows how unrealistic and unbiblical your view is.

I had hoped that by pointing out your error and directing you to scripture that shows you your error you would trust what the bible says and trust in the word of God. But it seems such is not the case. Perhaps through further study you will come to see the truth in scripture that God saves those that have trusted in His son.

It is a shame that you are so proudful as to reject God's word and promote yourself as the cause of your salvation.
You cannot even admit that God caused you to believe because he so very much loves you. He loves you so much that even while you were dead in your sins, God made you alive with Christ Jesus. By his grace you have been saved.
I hope that by pointing out your error and showing you scripture that you will humble yourself and admit God caused you to believe so that you could inherit what he has for you before the foundation of the world.
Perhaps when you can be second and God is first, you will come to understand the fullness of what God has done for you.

 

[Silverhair]

It is a shame that you are so proudful as to reject God's word and promote yourself as the cause of your salvation.
You cannot even admit that God caused you to believe because he so very much loves you. He loves you so much that even while you were dead in your sins, God made you alive with Christ Jesus. By his grace you have been saved.
I hope that by pointing out your error and showing you scripture that you will humble yourself and admit God caused you to believe so that you could inherit what he has for you before the foundation of the world.
Perhaps when you can be second and God is first, you will come to understand the fullness of what God has done for you.

Ah @taisto we will never see eye to eye, you think God has to cause one to believe and I trust what the bible says that it is because of our faith that God will save us. How can you reconcile your view with what the bible says?

"...the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes,..." Rom 1:16 NASB

"...Sirs, what must I do to be saved?" They said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household." Act 16:30-31 NASB

"In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise," Eph 1:13 NASB

Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom also we have obtained our introduction by faith into this grace in which we stand; and we exult in hope of the glory of God. Rom 5:1-2 NASB

"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. "For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. "He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. Joh 3:16-18 NASB

These verses plus many more show why your view is not biblical. You can continue to deny what is found in the word of God but do not expect others to agree with you.

Man does not save himself but when we fulfill the condition set by God, faith in His son, then God by His grace saves us. We are saved because we believe not so that we will believe. "For by grace you have been saved through faith..." Eph 2:8 NASB

 

[taisto]

Happy New Year.

May the Lord bless you and keep you; the Lord make his face to shine upon you and be gracious to you; the Lord lift up his countenance upon you and give you peace.
~ Numbers 6:24-26

 

[Brightfame52]

Christs death for them He died for brings about effects, applies healing/spiritual salvation 1 Pet 2:24

24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

By Christs suffering unto death for His Sheep, Gods Elect, He satisfied for them Gods Justice, and hence by that are entirely discharged, acquitted of all their sins, even forgiven. The word healed iaomai means:

I heal, generally of the physical, sometimes of spiritual, disease

to make whole i. e. to free from errors and sins, to bring about (one's) salvation: 73

 

[Brightfame52]

@Brightfame52 you continue to hold to your false ideas about who can be saved and ignore what the bible tells you.

"For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. Joh 3:17 NASB

But we do see Him who was made for a little while lower than the angels, namely, Jesus, because of the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, so that by the grace of God He might taste death for everyone. Heb 2:9 NASB

and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world. 1Jn 2:2 NASB

For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers. 1Ti 4:10 NASB

BF the death of Christ was sufficient to provide for the salvation of all men but it is only efficient for those that freely trust in the risen Christ. That is why we preach the death burial and resurrection of Christ Jesus. "...I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures,.." 1Co 15:1-4 NASB
The death of Christ saved no one, if He is still in the tomb, He cannot be an object of our faith.
If Christ is not risen, you have no evidence of God’s having accepted his mediation for you, or, consequently, of your being justified.
"and if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is vain, your faith also is vain." 1Co 15:14 NASB

Those for whom Christ died, it brings them to Glory Heb 2:10

10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.

 

[Silverhair]

Those for whom Christ died, it brings them to Glory Heb 2:10

10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.

As the bible says Christ died for: for everyone, all men, the world and to make sure that people did not get it wrong the Holy Spirit inspired John to write "...He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world. 1Jn 2:2 NASB"

Now I know you have a hard time accepting this truth but that is what scripture tells us. So we see that salvation is available to all but we know not all will be saved. Only those that fulfill the condition set by God will be saved. That condition is faith in His risen Son. That is why we preach the gospel message, "...the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes..." Rom 1:16

Paul in Acts when responding to the Roman guard's question re salvation told him "...Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved,..." Act 16:31 The jailer had heard the gospel, he was told that if he believed the gospel he would be saved.
So I agree that Christ will bring many sons to glory, those that respond in faith the the gospel message. "In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise," Eph 1:13

@Brightfame52 you hold to the idea that Christ only died for a select group, the "elect", and that His death saved them but the biblical text does not support your view.
He died that all could be saved but only those that freely trust in Him, the risen Son, will be saved. If Christ had not been raised then no one would be saved. "and if Christ has not been raised, your faith is worthless; you are still in your sins." 1Co_15:17

We worship a living Lord not one that is still in the tomb. A living Lord that can and will forgive sins "If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." 1Jn 1:9

The living Christ Jesus is the only way to the Father. "Jesus *said..., "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me." Joh 14:6

 

[taisto]

Those who stand against God's grace in causing one to be saved always quote sentences out of context as prooftext to glorify themselves as the cause of their own salvation.
Unwittingly, they do the same thing that Satan does in quoting scripture. In so doing they deny the grace of God and praise the work of man.

 

[MrW]

God is not secondary in His salvation of me. He is solitary.

The Father thought it, the Son bought it, and the Holy Spirit wrought it, when He sought me.

I did not suffer for my sins.

I was not crucified for my sins.

I did not rise from the dead in a glorified body for my justification.

God called; I answered. My response to His call is the response He requires from all:

“Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved.”

“He that cometh to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of them that diligently seek Him.”

“Without faith, it is impossible to please God.”

“As many as received Him, to them gave He power to become the sons of God.”

 

[taisto]

God is not secondary in His salvation of me. He is solitary.

The Father thought it, the Son bought it, and the Holy Spirit wrought it, when He sought me.

I did not suffer for my sins.

I was not crucified for my sins.

I did not rise from the dead in a glorified body for my justification.

Go called; I answered. My response to His call is the response He requires from all:

“Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved.”

“He that cometh to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of them that diligently seek Him.”

“Without faith, it is impossible to please God.”

“As many as received Him, to them gave He power to become the sons of God.”

So, God caused you to come to faith. We are in agreement.

 

[MrW]

He certainly allowed me to. I would not say He forced me, but I doubt that you actually agree with me. If you agreed with me, you would have to make a lot of changes.

 

[taisto]

He certainly allowed me to. I would not say He forced me, but I doubt that you actually agree with me. If you agreed with me, you would have to make a lot of changes.

You just said: "The Father thought it, the Son bought it, and the Holy Spirit wrought it, when He sought me."

"God called; I answered."

This is God causing you to believe.

You would NEVER have believed without God moving you to faith. Like Adam and Eve, you would have remained in hiding had God not called you out and clothed you in Christ's righteousness.

This is the theme of redemption from the garden to the new world. God redeems and we react in worship.

 

[Brightfame52]

As the bible says Christ died for: for everyone, all men, the world and to make sure that people did not get it wrong the Holy Spirit inspired John to write "...He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world. 1Jn 2:2 NASB"

Now I know you have a hard time accepting this truth but that is what scripture tells us. So we see that salvation is available to all but we know not all will be saved. Only those that fulfill the condition set by God will be saved. That condition is faith in His risen Son. That is why we preach the gospel message, "...the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes..." Rom 1:16

Paul in Acts when responding to the Roman guard's question re salvation told him "...Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved,..." Act 16:31 The jailer had heard the gospel, he was told that if he believed the gospel he would be saved.
So I agree that Christ will bring many sons to glory, those that respond in faith the the gospel message. "In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise," Eph 1:13

@Brightfame52 you hold to the idea that Christ only died for a select group, the "elect", and that His death saved them but the biblical text does not support your view.
He died that all could be saved but only those that freely trust in Him, the risen Son, will be saved. If Christ had not been raised then no one would be saved. "and if Christ has not been raised, your faith is worthless; you are still in your sins." 1Co_15:17

We worship a living Lord not one that is still in the tomb. A living Lord that can and will forgive sins "If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." 1Jn 1:9

The living Christ Jesus is the only way to the Father. "Jesus *said..., "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me." Joh 14:6

The ones Christ died for, results in Him bringing them to Glory Heb 2:10

10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.

 

[Silverhair]

The ones Christ died for, results in Him bringing them to Glory Heb 2:10

10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.

@Brightfame52 you keep saying that same thing over and over but it still does not show your view to be biblical. When you ignore clear scripture it just shows it is not the word of God that your trust but yourself.

 

[MrW]

He died for all, yet all are not saved, because all do not have faith in Christ.

Calvin was wrong.

 

[Silverhair]

You just said: "The Father thought it, the Son bought it, and the Holy Spirit wrought it, when He sought me."

"God called; I answered."

This is God causing you to believe.

You would NEVER have believed without God moving you to faith. Like Adam and Eve, you would have remained in hiding had God not called you out and clothed you in Christ's righteousness.

This is the theme of redemption from the garden to the new world. God redeems and we react in worship.

God calls all to repentance are you @taisto saying that all are saved. Are you a universalist?