the attributes of god

[Calv1]

Jesus did veil his divinity while on earth. As a human he was bound by the limitations of time and space; he got tired and slept; he needed food; he was not faster than a speeding bullet.

But he didn't veil his divinity completely. He controlled the elements; he raised the dead; he healed the sick; he restored the ear Peter cut off.

He also discerned the thoughts of men.

I frankly do not know why Jesus said the Son did not know the time of his return. But saying he purposely refused to know (but later took back his knowing)it doesn't quite do the trick for me. Self-imposed amnesia is a real stretch, I think

Calv1: Jesus did veil His divinity completely, and He did not give himself "Amnesia"! Nor did He divest Himself of His divine attributes, but rather "Became a servant", that is acted only according to His human nature. He controlled the elements, healed, etc. as a human filled with the power of the Holy Spirit, as Paul and Peter later did.

As for knowledge, it is clear that God is all knowing. We can't interject phrases like "He will forget our sins" to imply that God no longer knows about our sins, but rather knows about them, but chooses to see only Christs righteouness on us. If He literally "Forgot" our sins, then we would be considered righteous on our own account.

 

[Skandelon]

If He literally "Forgot" our sins, then we would be considered righteous on our own account.

Good point. Also, he would be "surprised" every time a preacher spoke about the sins of past saints, like when David committed adultery or when Peter denied Christ.

 

[Van]

Hi DHK, why do you claim my definition of "Omniscience" does not mean "all-knowing" when it is made up of the same two words as yours? Absurd.

Yes, my definition is man-made, derived from the Bible. Yours is not found in the Bible either.

Then you post that God cannot be less than all-knowing with all knowing meaning knowing everything imaginable. This is false, with no support in scripture. Repeating an obvious falsehood does not make it any less false.

Then you list the usual suspects once again, none of which actually support your premise. Shall we go over them one more time?

1 Kings 8:9 refers to living people, people who have ways of living which God knows. This verse does not address future people. So yet another non-germane verse.

Job 28:24 again addresses what exists, not what the future holds. So yet another non-germane verse.

Psalm 139:12 - ditto

Psalm 147:4 - ditto

Proverbs 15:3 - ditto

Proverbs 15:11 - ditto

Isaiah 40:26 - ditto

Acts 1:24 - ditto

Hebrews 4:13 - ditto

Acts 15:18 - this verse says God makes known things from old, and is fully consistent with the Biblical definition I provided.

Psalm 14:2 - this verse actually supports my position, God would not need to look know to "see" or discern the thoughts and actions of men, if the unbiblical definition was true.

Isaiah 44:8, yet another non-germane verse that says there is no God except Yahweh.

So at the end of the day, not one verse supports undermines the biblical definition and several undermine the umbilical definition.

God's knowledge is beyond what we can measure, hence, unsearchable or unfathomable. No verse, properly translated supports the assertion that God's knowledge is infinite and therefore unlimited.

The unbiblical definition of Omniscience rests on the logical fallacy of the hasty generalization. My verses, such as Psalm 14:2 present the need for the biblical view, God knows everything He has chosen to know.

God Bless

 

[Van]

Reply to Skandelon and Cav1

Good point. Also, he would be "surprised" every time a preacher spoke about the sins of past saints, like when David committed adultery or when Peter denied Christ.

If God forgives our sins and remembers them no more because of the "circumcision of Christ" then that does not make us righteousness on our own account.

God would not be surprised by the sins recorded in His inspired word, but when any one whose sin is recorded in any manner (newspaper, bible, you name it) approaches God, He has no memory of that person's past sins, they have been forgiven, and those past sins are not remembered. We have a continuous clean slate. God is not a liar.

 

[jbh28]

Hi DHK, why do you claim my definition of "Omniscience" does not mean "all-knowing" when it is made up of the same two words as yours? Absurd.

Yes, my definition is man-made, derived from the Bible. Yours is not found in the Bible either.

No, your definition is limited, not ALL. It's not from the Bible because the Bible teaches that God knows everything. You deny the Scriptures.

Then you post that God cannot be less than all-knowing with all knowing meaning knowing everything imaginable. This is false, with no support in scripture. Repeating an obvious falsehood does not make it any less false.

We have quoted many Scriptures that clearly teach that God knows everything. You have yet to post 1 that says that there is something that God doesn't know.

You have a week god. I worship a sovereign all knowing powerful God.

 

[Skandelon]

God would not be surprised by the sins recorded in His inspired word, but when any one whose sin is recorded in any manner (newspaper, bible, you name it) approaches God, He has no memory of that person's past sins, they have been forgiven, and those past sins are not remembered. We have a continuous clean slate. God is not a liar.

Considering all the sins that have been confessed and presumably forgiven by God, I suppose you believe there are huge gaps in the mind of God as to how this event came about and that event came about since he can't remember all the sinful acts of all those forgiven sins?

I don't believe it is calling God a "liar" to suggest that his "remembering them no more" is in reference to his decision to treat the person as if they had never sinned and no longer need to carry the guilt of that sin. Jesus approached Peter after his weeping confessional to restore him and help him find healing. Many sins we commit require years of healing and restoration, so to suggest God has literally no recollection of our past wrong doings, their effects and our need for recovery from the pain they have caused is a bit shortsighted.

When we say, "I have forgotten about it," we are expressing our choice to not think about the sin and to treat a person as if they didn't wrong us. Do you think all people who use this type of verbiage to be a liars as well?

 

[DHK]

Yes, my definition is man-made, derived from the Bible. Yours is not found in the Bible either.

I disagree with your statement here.
I do believe you are not recognizing metaphors when they are used.
I will give you a simple one.

A friend and I are offended at each other. Something has come up to cause us to to be somewhat angry with each other.
Later on we reconcile our differences and "bury the hatchet."
Literally, neither of us have a hatchet to bury.
So what does that mean? It means that we have forgiven each other and we won't bring the matter up again. Not bringing it up again, or burying the hatchet, is the same as forgetting it altogether, though that may be humanly impossible for each of us to do. We will always remember the incident. But as far as each one of us is concerned it is forgotten.

It is the same with the Lord. He is omniscient. He has "forgotten" our sins in that they will never be held against us. That is a promise. But in reality, being omniscient, he cannot forget anything. All knowledge belongs to him.

 

[jbh28]

I disagree with your statement here.
I do believe you are not recognizing metaphors when they are used.
I will give you a simple one.

A friend and I are offended at each other. Something has come up to cause us to to be somewhat angry with each other.
Later on we reconcile our differences and "bury the hatchet."
Literally, neither of us have a hatchet to bury.
So what does that mean? It means that we have forgiven each other and we won't bring the matter up again. Not bringing it up again, or burying the hatchet, is the same as forgetting it altogether, though that may be humanly impossible for each of us to do. We will always remember the incident. But as far as each one of us is concerned it is forgotten.

It is the same with the Lord. He is omniscient. He has "forgotten" our sins in that they will never be held against us. That is a promise. But in reality, being omniscient, he cannot forget anything. All knowledge belongs to him.

You mean that the Bible has metaphors in it? gasp!!!

 

[JesusFan]

Calv1: Jesus did veil His divinity completely, and He did not give himself "Amnesia"! Nor did He divest Himself of His divine attributes, but rather "Became a servant", that is acted only according to His human nature. He controlled the elements, healed, etc. as a human filled with the power of the Holy Spirit, as Paul and Peter later did.

I know that Jesus remained God while upon the earth, point was that he did "limit" Himself to acting as a man while here. He did choose NOT to use His inate divine sttributes like knowing all things, all powerful etc....

As for knowledge, it is clear that God is all knowing. We can't interject phrases like "He will forget our sins" to imply that God no longer knows about our sins, but rather knows about them, but chooses to see only Christs righteouness on us. If He literally "Forgot" our sins, then we would be considered righteous on our own account.

Agree with you here, God knows everything that is possible to be known, and that many times He has to be described in ways to "relate: down to our levels!

 

[JesusFan]

If God forgives our sins and remembers them no more because of the "circumcision of Christ" then that does not make us righteousness on our own account.

God would not be surprised by the sins recorded in His inspired word, but when any one whose sin is recorded in any manner (newspaper, bible, you name it) approaches God, He has no memory of that person's past sins, they have been forgiven, and those past sins are not remembered. We have a continuous clean slate. God is not a liar.

BIG difference between the Lord NOT remembering our sins in the sense that He does not hold them against us anymore, that our debt owed Him was paid thru the Cross of Christ, than He really totally forgot them...

When God thinks of you, now found in Christ, All he now sees is the blood of Jesus atoning for all Sins, and your new relationship /covenant thru the Cross of Christ...

Crude analogue would be like someone doing really bad things, murder etc than the judge says that he has a pardon from the State, and his past crimes will not be used against him any more, to be remembered no more...

 

[Van]

Yes there is a big difference between saying God actually remembers the sins, and God does not remember them. God is not a liar. He can limit His knowledge according to scripture.

 

[jbh28]

Yes there is a big difference between saying God actually remembers the sins, and God does not remember them. God is not a liar. He can limit His knowledge according to scripture.

No, you just read like a child would read. Never in Scripture does it say that God doesn't know something. The term "remember" means "to bring to mind or think of again." God will never "bring to mind" or "think of again" our sins because they have been forgiven. It doesn't mean that God forgets.

 

[Van]

It means what it says, not what it does not say. Scripture alone is our authority. God is not a liar, He remembers no more our sins forever.

 

[Skandelon]

Van, I don't think it is reasonable to imply that we believe God to be a liar because we don't teach that He has literally forgotten a large portion of human history.

 

[jbh28]

It means what it says, not what it does not say. Scripture alone is our authority. God is not a liar, He remembers no more our sins forever.

You read like a child. I just quoted the definition of "remember." You are adding to it to support your agenda. The Scriptures teach that God knows everything. The Scriptures never say that God doesn't know something. To interpret "remember no more" as forget is to not fully understand the meaning of the term remember and also have a interpretation that contradicts Scripture. Remember, it doesn't say "forget" but "remember no more." There is a difference.

 

[Van]

You can attach my character and qualifications till the cows come home, but scripture alone is my authority and it says God remembers my sins no more forever. God is not a liar.

 

[kyredneck]

1) God remembers no more our sins forever. Does this mean God can't recall what we did in the past or that they shall not be brought up against us.

2) Did Jesus know the time of His returning? Well he said he didn't but Jesus was also 100% man as He was 100% God and Jesus did claim that the Father knew the time.

3)Did God know beforehand that Abraham would be willing to slay his son? Well I believed God did and that is why he gave him precious promises and called him to be the Father of Faith. I Also know Abraham believed him and the lad would return to his servants. I understand the Angel stopped Abraham when he raised the knife and said now I know that thou didn't with hold thy only son from me. Was this shown to reveal to us God was really uncertain what Abraham would do or was it done to show us that Faith is not confirmed in profession of mouth only but by our works. If one says he loves the Lord but doesn't keep his commandments then his works find him out. Like James said you say you have faith without works but by my works I will show you my faith.

Acts 15:18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.
Ephesians 1:19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,

Abraham trusted God because God was with him. 1 Peter 1:21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.

Yes I most certainly believe God Declared the end from the beginning and from ancient times called those things that are not as though they were.

I look at it like knowing in general and knowing in a intimate way.
Psalms 139:2 Thou knowest my downsitting and mine uprising, thou understandest my thought afar off
Psalms 139:23 Search me, O God, and know my heart: try me, and know my thoughts:
One is told from afar off and the other is to be by searching and trying.

Matthew 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Now here were some claiming to do these things in the name of Christ, Now did he not know them at all in general as far as who they were. I believe God would know who they were in general but not in an intimate way as far as his Spirit leading them unto good works. Or as a way of knowing in remission of their sins.

Now I know where you are at and have come across others that hold it just like you do. But I for one am not able to be in that camp. I just don't see it that way as you will probably not see it my way. I believe God knows all but God also deals with Man. When He went talking with Adam in the Garden after he ate of the fruit of the knowledge of Good and Evil, I believed God already knew all about it but would be like me addressing one of my children to see what I could get them to confess when I already knew of the matter.

Excellent post.

 

[Skandelon]

You read like a child.

Leave out the personal comments please.

I just quoted the definition of "remember." You are adding to it to support your agenda. The Scriptures teach that God knows everything. The Scriptures never say that God doesn't know something. To interpret "remember no more" as forget is to not fully understand the meaning of the term remember and also have a interpretation that contradicts Scripture. Remember, it doesn't say "forget" but "remember no more." There is a difference.

I was just about to make the same point.

Remember: to recall to the mind by an act or effort of memory; think of again

Forget: to be unable to recall

Choosing not to remember, by these definitions, would clearly be different from forgetting. God could be able to recall the knowledge of something but choose to not bring it to mind or recall it again so as to judge the man for doing it. Seems pretty straight-foward to me and we don't have God lying to anyone either.

 

[jbh28]

You can attach my character and qualifications till the cows come home, but scripture alone is my authority and it says God remembers my sins no more forever. God is not a liar.

I just said you read like a child. That has nothing to do with your character or qualifications other than your reading skills are lacking. Of course you offer no rebuttal, so that's really telling. remember no more doesn't equal forget.[deleted comment]
God is omniscient! He doesn't forget and has all knowledge. One must read the Bible as a child and add to definitions to say that God doesn't have all knowledge.

While we usually think of not remembering something as forgetting, it really isn't. We still have the knowledge, just don't have it in the front of our minds.

 

[Van]

No one can make the point that God knows everything imaginable, He remembers our sins no more forever. He limits His knowledge according to His purpose.