the attributes of god

[Van]

DHK says he is not a Calvinist but is unwilling to say any doctrine of the TULIP is false. Who knew.

Saying everything is timeless is like saying all means everything imaginable. Unsound, non-contextual, and simply an effort to read man-made doctrine into scripture.

 

[Van]

We are not at liberty to change the meanings of words to our own fancy.

Such statements as the above imply that someone has indeed changed the meaning of a word for the purpose of fulfilling there own fancy or desire or point of view. But, since the meaning of "all" which I supplied, is consistent with definitions found in lexicons, I did not change the meaning. But changing the meaning, rewritting text, can be based on objective evidence. The verse says this, but I or someone else says it actually means that. However, to say such a view was based not on a genuine effort to present the truth, but rather an effort of knowing perversion, to something we fancy, is to to claim "mind reading" ability. It is simply an attack on character.

 

[Van]

Reply to Skandelon

The bible never uses the terms 'God limits his knowledge,' that is your 'conjecture'. Both of us are speculating as to how an infinite God relates within time a space. I accept the mystery. You attempt to reconcile it by drawing conclusion that the text never draws...(i.e. God must limit his knowledge)


Please don't accuse those who disagree with you as believing God is a liar. That is a false dichotomy (i.e. He either limits his knowledge or lies)

First, I did not say nor suggest you believe God is a liar. I said you are saying God is a liar because you are saying that God does not actually mean what He says. He remembers no more our sins forever. You say He does, but just does not count them against us. But that is not what He literally said. He says "now I know" indicating before "now" He did not know, but you say He really knew. But then again, that says God is not telling the truth. Jesus said He did not know the time of His return, only the Father knew, but again, you say Jesus knew. So Jesus was lying yet again. That is how I see your position.

It is not that I hold an odd ball view, many people read these texts and many others, and conclude if God was presenting the literal truth, He can and does limit His knowledge for His purpose.

 

[Van]

Hi Skandelon, my position is based on what the bible says, your position is based on something the Bible does not say. The Bible says Jesus knows all things, yet does not know the time of His return. Therefore, to reconcile these two verses, logical necessity requires that all things does not refer to everything imaginable, but only whatever the author had in view, and whatever that was, it did not include Jesus knowing the time of His return. My view is not conjecture. It is inescapable.

 

[Skandelon]

First, I did not say nor suggest you believe God is a liar. I said you are saying God is a liar

So, now I'm a liar because I'm saying things I don't believe?

because you are saying that God does not actually mean what He says.

How is it that you are typing to me with no eyes or hands? Since God clearly means what he says and he told you to pluck out your eye and cut off your hand if they caused you to sin? Are you calling God a liar?

See, that just doesn't work, bro. You have to read contextually and seek to understand the intent of the author.

He remembers no more our sins forever. You say He does

No I don't. I said there is a difference in remembering a sin and recalling a known factual event of history. God can choose not to do the first while still having the ability to do the latter. He is God after all and I don't believe He has huge gaps in his mind of most of human history, which is exactly what would be required considering the vast number of sins that have been forgiven.

Jesus said He did not know the time of His return, only the Father knew, but again, you say Jesus knew. So Jesus was lying yet again.

I have never said that, must have been someone else.

It is not that I hold an odd ball view, many people read these texts and many others, and conclude if God was presenting the literal truth, He can and does limit His knowledge for His purpose.

Or, they have been a parent before and know how parents sometimes choose to talk to their kids in order to help them grasp a concept. As a parent of 4 there have been countless times I've known my kid could do something but he didn't believe he could and so I challenged him and "tested" him. Once he did it I celebrated with him, knowing full well that he had the ability before he even tried. Did my choosing to get on his level and challenge him to a task I knew he could accomplish already and then celebrate with him when he did make me a liar? No, it made me a good parent.

 

[Van]

Reply to Jesusfan,

just a few questions...
has there EVER been a time when God did NOT know everything that is possible to be known?
Did he EVER have to learn something new to Him?
Did God Cause all things, or does he have perfect foreknowledge, direct control over all that happens, but free to choose when to directly intervene, and when to 'allow" things to happen?

Has there ever been a time? Yes, when God said "now I know" that says before "now" God did not know.

Yes, God can learn. If He has chosen not to know something beforehand, then He can say when Abraham sets his mind on killing his son Isaac, now I know.

Third question, broken up into parts:
a) Did God cause all things? Yes, directly or indirectly. He created man with the ability to make autonomous choices, so when we make autonomous choices, He is the indirect cause. But because they are autonomous, He is not the author of sin.

b) Does God have perfect foreknowledge. Here we must define what you meant by "foreknowledge." Foreknowledge in the modern dictionary sense means knowledge of the future. If this was your meaning, God knows the future exhaustively, then no God does not have perfect foreknowledge because He has chosen not to know some future things, such as Jesus not knowing the time of His return.

But if by "foreknowledge" you were referring to the biblical usage, of knowing things declared or predestined in the past, and these things predestined have not yet occurred, then His knowledge of those future things is indeed perfect, He will bring about whatever He has purposed for no plan of God can be thwarted.

c) Does God exercise direct control of some things? Yes. He intervenes and brings about His purpose and plan. Has God chosen to directly control all things? No, because His purpose requires that we make autonomous choices, so He does not directly control our autonomous choices, such as to repent. Thus when we repent, we bring glory to God, fulfilling the purpose of creation.

d) Yes, God is free to do as He pleases, and He has chosen to directly control some things, and to allow other things to occur even when they are inconsistent with His desire. Rather than cause all men to be saved using irresistible grace, God allows men to believe or not believe in Christ autonomously, and then He chooses to save those whose faith He credits as righteousness, because that is according to His purpose and plan.

 

[Van]

Skandelon, this thread is not about you. I did not call you a liar, nor did I say you thought God was a liar. I said you were saying God is a liar from my point of view!!!!!

And we have been all through the "God is not physical" effort to avoid the truth of scripture. God has no face, eyes, wings, hands, arms, feet, front, back, or whatever physical attributes. But God has spiritual attributes, intellect, will, and emotion. What you are trying to do is say because God refers to physical attributes and those are figurative, (proving "a") it follows that God's spiritual attributes are also "figurative." Nope, no sale. You have not made the case for "b."

We agree, we must seek the intent of the author. I think I am being more successful, and I think you are not being as successful. We could reverse that and probably have your position.

I am a simply guy. You effort to explain how God could remember and not remember at the same time makes no sense to me. It is like the mumbo jumbo Calvinists use to explain how God predestines everything but is not the author of sin. I believe the gospel is simple, even a child can understand it. Anytime someone defends a position with a paradoxical view, I simply say one or both the points of the dilemma are false.

If you believe Jesus did not know everything, but Peter said Jesus knew everything, then you agree with me. Somehow I doubt it. Did you not say Jesus the man did not know, but Jesus the God did know? Please correct my view if I have gone off the road.

If you said you did not "believe" he could do it, when you did believe he could do it, then you are not modeling Christ, who is truth, to the four year old. On the other hand, if you said you did not know, and of course you did not know, because you do not know the future, then you did not bend the truth. But God is not a man, such as having imperfect beliefs about specific future happenings, He knows what He knows about the future, and when He says, now I know, that may mean He hoped or desired Abraham would love God more than his son, but it sure does not mean He knew what He indicated He did not know. God is not a liar, it is impossible for God to lie.

 

[jbh28]

Has there ever been a time? Yes, when God said "now I know" that says before "now" God did not know.

No, that's something you are reading into the text that isn't there. Go look up the usage of the word know. It may be beneficial.

Yes, God can learn. If He has chosen not to know something beforehand, then He can say when Abraham sets his mind on killing his son Isaac, now I know.

Sorry, just false on many accounts. You read something into the text that isn't there. Before Abraham did the action, he had not proved himself. After Abraham did the action, God now knows(sees through observation, not learned that it happened) of Abraham's faith. Words have multiple meanings. We cannot plug a meaning in to suit our theology. God is eternal and exists outside of time. It's impossible for him to not know everything.

Does God have perfect foreknowledge. Here we must define what you meant by "foreknowledge." Foreknowledge in the modern dictionary sense means knowledge of the future. If this was your meaning, God knows the future exhaustively, then no God does not have perfect foreknowledge because He has chosen not to know some future things, such as Jesus not knowing the time of His return.

The Father knew, so God knew. Point moot

 

[JesusFan]

Has there ever been a time? Yes, when God said "now I know" that says before "now" God did not know.

Are you than going to say when God asked for where Adam was in the garden, He literally needed directions to him?

Yes, God can learn. If He has chosen not to know something beforehand, then He can say when Abraham sets his mind on killing his son Isaac, now I know.

What would He had done if Abraham decided to go ahead and kill of his son?

Third question, broken up into parts:
a) Did God cause all things? Yes, directly or indirectly. He created man with the ability to make autonomous choices, so when we make autonomous choices, He is the indirect cause. But because they are autonomous, He is not the author of sin.

b) Does God have perfect foreknowledge. Here we must define what you meant by "foreknowledge." Foreknowledge in the modern dictionary sense means knowledge of the future. If this was your meaning, God knows the future exhaustively, then no God does not have perfect foreknowledge because He has chosen not to know some future things, such as Jesus not knowing the time of His return.

while on the earth, Jesus chose to "limit" Himself, part of Him "emptying" Himself..
Thus , while on earth, was operating fully as a man, not dependant on his God nature, so he would Not know the date, as was not imortant to doing His work on earth...

Trust me, Once back to Heaven, at Fathers right hand, now know everything once again!


But if by "foreknowledge" you were referring to the biblical usage, of knowing things declared or predestined in the past, and these things predestined have not yet occurred, then His knowledge of those future things is indeed perfect, He will bring about whatever He has purposed for no plan of God can be thwarted.

c) Does God exercise direct control of some things? Yes. He intervenes and brings about His purpose and plan. Has God chosen to directly control all things? No, because His purpose requires that we make autonomous choices, so He does not directly control our autonomous choices, such as to repent. Thus when we repent, we bring glory to God, fulfilling the purpose of creation.

d) Yes, God is free to do as He pleases, and He has chosen to directly control some things, and to allow other things to occur even when they are inconsistent with His desire. Rather than cause all men to be saved using irresistible grace, God allows men to believe or not believe in Christ autonomously, and then He chooses to save those whose faith He credits as righteousness, because that is according to His purpose and plan.

begs the question though..
CAn God EVEN will Himself to NOT know everything?
Dont think that he can, as God cannot sin, cannot go against His nature, thus cannot not know all things possiblr to be known!

 

[DHK]

DHK says he is not a Calvinist but is unwilling to say any doctrine of the TULIP is false. Who knew.

Saying everything is timeless is like saying all means everything imaginable. Unsound, non-contextual, and simply an effort to read man-made doctrine into scripture.

Please answer my post point by point, NOT the point I asked you not to answer for I clearly told you that it was not the topic of this thread. Derailing a thread can be found in the rules. Read them. The thread is not about Calvinism. Any attempt to make it one will result in closure of this thread. Why have you gone against this warning which I have already given you twice, and now this is the third warning.

Please answer the rest of my post.

 

[Van]

Hi Jesusfan, I answered the questions in detail.

Can God will himself not to know everything? Yes, as demonstrated by the three verses I provided.

But now we have a new argument. Since God cannot sin, it must know all possible outcomes. This assertion is not logical. All God needs to know is that what He is doing is not sin.

Why not accept what scripture says? God remembers no more our sin. That means He can choose not to know things. Jesus did not know the time of His return, that means God can choose not to know things. God said, "now I know" indicating He did not know before the "now."

The biblical definition of Omniscience is God knows everything He has chosen to know. To go further is simply conjecture without actual biblical support. Why muddy scriptural understanding with pagan metaphysics?

 

[JesusFan]

Hi Jesusfan, I answered the questions in detail.

Can God will himself not to know everything? Yes, as demonstrated by the three verses I provided.

None of them though support the notion of God "willing" himself to not remember, not know...

But now we have a new argument. Since God cannot sin, it must know all possible outcomes. This assertion is not logical. All God needs to know is that what He is doing is not sin.

actually, He knows ALL that is possible to be known at ALL times...
Anything less than that, and he cannot be God, for His attributes would be finite

Why not accept what scripture says? God remembers no more our sin. That means He can choose not to know things. Jesus did not know the time of His return, that means God can choose not to know things. God said, "now I know" indicating He did not know before the "now."

God has decreed "not to hold our sins agains us" due to the atoning work of Christ, still knows them, choses to NOT use them against us...
See point abot jesus Kenosis , self -limiting Himself while on earth

The biblical definition of Omniscience is God knows everything He has chosen to know. To go further is simply conjecture without actual biblical support. Why muddy scriptural understanding with pagan metaphysics?

problem is that YOUR God is NOT God of the Bible, and that is a dangerous place to go to, for IF a view on God is wrong, what about the view on jesus and the Cross?

 

[mandym]

Hi Jesusfan, I answered the questions in detail.

Can God will himself not to know everything? Yes, as demonstrated by the three verses I provided.

But now we have a new argument. Since God cannot sin, it must know all possible outcomes. This assertion is not logical. All God needs to know is that what He is doing is not sin.

Why not accept what scripture says? God remembers no more our sin. That means He can choose not to know things. Jesus did not know the time of His return, that means God can choose not to know things. God said, "now I know" indicating He did not know before the "now."

The biblical definition of Omniscience is God knows everything He has chosen to know. To go further is simply conjecture without actual biblical support. Why muddy scriptural understanding with pagan metaphysics?

Quite an unorthodox view of scripture and full of personal conjecture itself.

 

[Van]

Hi Jesusfan, I support my view of God from the Bible, so saying I do not believe in the God of the bible is without merit. Now I do not believe in what cannot be supported biblically. Who would?

I have shown why I believe the way I believe, and that many others also believe in at least a similar view. Why not accept what scripture says? God remembers no more our sin. That means He can choose not to know things. Jesus did not know the time of His return, that means God can choose not to know things. God said, "now I know" indicating He did not know before the "now."

The biblical definition of Omniscience is God knows everything He has chosen to know. To go further is simply conjecture without actual biblical support. Why muddy scriptural understanding with pagan metaphysics?

 

[DHK]

Calvinism has nothing to do with this thread. This thread is about the attributes of God.

Timelessness has much to do with this subject for God is an eternal being with eternal knowledge which cannot be limited. If it could then he would not be God. He would be less than God. I wish you could see that.
God is:
omnipresent
omnipotent
omniscient
eternal
immutable.

These are just a few of the attributes of God. And these attributes cannot be limited. What if we were to limit the other attributes as you limit his omniscience. Could God only operate at 50% power? Maybe the earth would fall out of its orbit?? Could God be only half present--only able to answer half the people's prayers because he can't hear the people on the other half of the world. Which half of eternity does God live in? Is God moody? He doesn't change. But if he is not immutable how can I appeal to his sense of justice? What kind of God do you serve once you start tampering with his attributes? A half-loving God? A half-merciful God? etc.
Words have meanings. They have meanings for a reason. There is a reason that omniscience means all-knowing without any qualification. God is infinite, timeless, eternal, as are all his attributes.

Again, we serve a timeless God. He is eternal and his attributes are eternal.

I never made that claim. Quote me if I did.

So if the world is all the world, then omniscience is all knowing. Neither word needs to be limited. Why leave one unlimited and not the other.

Okay. You have made your point about Acts 15:18. You don't like the translation. That is no problem to me. Like I said I gave you many other verses. Let's take a look at a couple of others instead:

The eyes of the LORD are in every place, beholding the evil and the good. (Proverbs 15:3)

For the eyes of the LORD run to and fro throughout the whole earth, to shew himself strong in the behalf of them whose heart is perfect toward him. Herein thou hast done foolishly: therefore from henceforth thou shalt have wars. (2 Chronicles 16:9)
--Both of these verses declare the omnipotence of God. The eyes of the Lord are in every place. It clearly means that not only is he everywhere but knows all things. The idea is that he both sees all and knows all.
--The second verse expresses it even stronger. His eyes run to and fro throughout the whole earth. They are everywhere and know all things. You cannot escape from God or from his knowledge.

You never answered me: What does "bury the hatchet" mean?

It was a logical conclusion to the entire story. The story began by saying that God "tested" Abraham. God knew the outcome beforehand. It was as if he was telling Abraham that he passed the test. It was for Abraham's sake that he was saying this.

Already asked and answered if you had read my posts.
Jesus could have called 12,000 angels (his omnipotence) had he decided not to go through with the cross. But he didn't. He decided not to use his omnipotence at that time.
When he was on earth he lived as a man. He decided not to use his omniscience at times as well. That was one of those times. He decided not to know the time of his coming, as a man on earth. He limited himself deciding not to use many of his divine attributes. Otherwise he would not have suffered as he did on the cross.

I just showed you how they don't support your position.

I think according to how the Scripture speaks.

Are you able to answer my post Van--all of it?

Is the "all-knowing, omniscient, omnipotent Allah," greater than Christ?
If we are to believe you, then he is.
It is blasphemous to think that such a position would be entertained in the light of other religions, especially those that might be reading these threads.

 

[JesusFan]

Hi Jesusfan, I support my view of God from the Bible, so saying I do not believe in the God of the bible is without merit. Now I do not believe in what cannot be supported biblically. Who would?

Point is that IF you hold to a view that God is NOT perfect in knowledge, he no longer would be immutable, as he would be "learning as He goes" so that would make Him less than what Bible teaches...

Not saying not a Christian, just that you have to watch the "slippery slope" for if one messes up the very nature of God, then all sorts of bad theology might result...

I have shown why I believe the way I believe, and that many others also believe in at least a similar view. Why not accept what scripture says? God remembers no more our sin. That means He can choose not to know things. Jesus did not know the time of His return, that means God can choose not to know things. God said, "now I know" indicating He did not know before the "now."

You keep repeating that "mantra", but Jesus was operating out of His sinless human nature while upon the Earth, choosing NOT to use his divine attributes, so he would Not know all things for a time, due to his kenosis...
but the Father always kept His full omnsience in play, so God still knew all things, didn't he?

The biblical definition of Omniscience is God knows everything He has chosen to know. To go further is simply conjecture without actual biblical support. Why muddy scriptural understanding with pagan metaphysics?

Actually, biblical definition is "is ANYTHING hidden from God?"
that the Lord knows ALL things that can be possible known!

The very doctrine of Immutability makes it impossible for God to do certain things and still remain God...

he cannot literally forget, or not know all things!

 

[Van]

If God chooses not to know something, does that mean it was hidden from God? No, of course not.

There is no verse that says God has chosen to know all things that can possibly be known.

The doctrine of Immutability is valid, see the OP for the bibilical presentation of the doctrine.

Assertions without biblical support are without merit, scripture says God can remember our sins no more, and that Jesus did not know the time of His return. Therefore God can put things out of His memory, He can limit His knowledge according to His purpose. That is the biblcial view.

 

[jbh28]

Assertions without biblical support are without merit, scripture says God can remember our sins no more, and that Jesus did not know the time of His return. Therefore God can put things out of His memory, He can limit His knowledge according to His purpose. That is the biblcial[sic] view.

Van, let me give you some advice. When something has been refuted, you can't keep using that as support. We showed you that "remember no more" doesn't equal not knowing. It's simple definition of the word. Also, when Jesus didn't know, the Father did, so still we have God knowing. So you still lack support of showing that God doesn't know something.

"remember"

I'm supposed to bring a hymnal to church tonight. Do I know this? Sure I do. What if I don't remember tonight to bring it. Did that mean I didn't know to bring it? No, I just didn't put it to my thoughts at the time I'm supposed to bring it. It doesn't mean I don't know about bringing the hymn book. God doesn't bring to mind our forgiven sins. He "remembers them no more." It doesn't say he wipes them from his knowledge to not even realize that they happened. This is adding something that isn't there.

You show a classic case of eisegesis here. You are trying to show God not knowing something. The Bible many times over and over again teach that God knows everything. He is eternal(outside of time) which in and of itself teaches that God knows everything. He's unchanging. Learning something knew would be change.

 

[Van]

No one showed me that remember no more does not mean remember no more. It does.

And for the umpteeth time, Jesus is God and did not know, therefore God can limit His knowledge. You cannot evade this. Jesus was said to know all things, yet did not know this, therefore "all things" does not refer to everything imaginable, certainly not the time of His return.

The whole "total omniscience" doctrine is unbiblical.

No one knows how God's mind works outside of time, all such assertions are mere conjecture. The Bible never, ever and any time says God knows everything imaginable.
No verse will be forthcoming. Not one. God is said to be all-knowing, but the scope of "all" is not defined as everything imaginable. In fact, that meaning is precluded.

God knows everything He has chosen to know, and He choses to know or not to know, for His purpose. That is the biblical doctrine.

 

[Skandelon]

No one showed me that remember no more does not mean remember no more. It does.

Van, help me understand something. Do you really believe that if someone, who was forgiven for a particular sin, prays to God and says something like, "God, do you know that sin I committed before, I did it again, and I come to you again asking for forgiveness," that God is up in heaven looking at one of the angels saying, "What's he talking about? Oh dang, I have no idea what sin he did before that I forgave, so I'm not sure which of his many sins he is confessing now. Someone go ask him what sin he is talking about because I can't remember what I already forgave."

Can God not at least read his mind and know what sin he had confessed before? How is it that the sinner who confessed the sin is more knowledgable about his previous sins than God is?

This view just seems absurd because it makes it to where I can't have a simple conversation with God, like I could my wife. Like, "Hey, hun remember when I said those mean things to you the other day."

She replies, "What are you talking about? I can't remember."

"You know what I mean, I know I apologized and you forgave me, but I wanted to talk to you about why I felt that way."

"Still have no idea what you are talking about dear," she responds, "everything is perfect between us, I can't remember you every doing anything wrong."

"Great, but I thought we grew from those mistakes and good discuss them as I still have troubles I'd like to talk to you about."

"Sorry dear," she says with a grin, "there are no mistakes I can think of. Want some cake?"

It would be like that Saturday night Live sketch of Mr. Short Term Memory. It really does get pretty absurd when you think about the implications of your view. Are you really willing to say that you, your friends, your spouse, your kids all know more about your past mistakes than God? If so, how well does He really know you?