the attributes of god

[DHK]

No one showed me that remember no more does not mean remember no more. It does.

I did Van. But you refuse to answer my post. The answer is in there.

 

[Van]

Remember no more means remember no more. Words have meanings. God is not a liar.

 

[jbh28]

Remember no more means remember no more. Words have meanings. [personal attack removed]

And "remember no more" doesn't mean that it isn't in your knowledge. Words have meanings.

 

[DHK]

Remember no more means remember no more. Words have meanings. God is not a liar.

Why won't you answer my post Van.

Words have meanings. That is right. You have changed the meaning of omniscience. But words have meanings, so why change the meaning of the word.

There are figures of speech, metaphors and similes, for example. They need to be recognized as such. If they are not one comes up with an unbiblical view of God.

When Jesus said: "I am the door," what did he mean? Is he a rectangular block of wood? Is that what is meant? Words have meanings Van?

When Jesus said: "I am the bread of life," what did he mean? Is he a loaf of bread? What does bread look like? Does bread look like the incarnate God. Words have meanings, Van. Will you consider that there are metaphors in the Bible that we must recognize as metaphors?

In our own contemporary English language we use them every day.
I gave you a good example. I will give it again:

What does it mean to "bury the hatchet"?
If you answer that question, then I will tell you what it means when God says "I will remember them no more," or, "I will bury them in the deepest sea," or "I will hide them behind my back," or:

As far as the east is from the west, so far hath he removed our transgressions from us. (Psalms 103:12)
--That one is a simile.
--Words have meanings, Van.

"It is easier for a camel to through the eye of a needle"
--What was Jesus speaking about then? Stainless steel needles hadn't even been invented. But we still must find out the meaning of the words involved in the idiom and then the meaning of the idiom itself.

 

[Van]

Hi Skandelon, I provided three verses. You have made your argument concerning one and I showed that your argument was without merit. So now, rather than address my rebuttal, you repeat your argument as if it had not been addressed. Let me go over it again. I believe what the bible says. It says God does not remember our forgiven sins. That means God does not remember our forgiven sins.

You can say, that is impossible because of all the reminders God would be aware of that we had sinned. But my answer is if God says He does something, I accept He does it, even though the bible might not tell me exactly "how" God does it.

But I can speculate just like anyone else, and think of ways God "might" be able to not remember my forgiven sins, even though they are on the front page of the news paper.
Could God alter his vision and pass over my forgiven sins, so He does not remember them, when He brings "Van" to mind. Of course.

Does God need to have knowledge of my past sins in order to know me? No. He can know my heart, and know that I love God, and that I strive to live according to His will. He can know my deeds and my needs and provide for me now and with rewards in Heaven.

It is like this, we either walk by faith, trusting in the Bible, or we lean on our own understanding and trust that when the Bible says things we disagree with, we need to change the biblcial meaning rather than change our own understanding. This inability to learn and grow is what divides the body of Christ, in my opinion.

 

[Skandelon]

Hi Skandelon, I provided three verses. You have made your argument concerning one and I showed that your argument was without merit. So now, rather than address my rebuttal, you repeat your argument as if it had not been addressed. Let me go over it again. I believe what the bible says. It says God does not remember our forgiven sins. That means God does not remember our forgiven sins.

Yes, I understand that is your position. And my post was to ask you to provide answers with regard to the implications of that position. Can you please do that?

You can say, that is impossible because of all the reminders God would be aware of that we had sinned. But my answer is if God says He does something, I accept He does it, even though the bible might not tell me exactly "how" God does it.

Correct. The bible doesn't tell you HOW, thus the speculations that DHK, Jhb and myself are offering as possible options as to HOW God chooses to remember no more while maintaining at least some semblance of at least normal ability to know and communicate with us is at least as credible as your speculation. So, you can drop the "God is not a liar" line, please.

But I can speculate just like anyone else, and think of ways God "might" be able to not remember my forgiven sins, even though they are on the front page of the news paper.

Fine, but be willing to deal with the implications of those speculations and answer the questions I posed in my last post.

Does God need to have knowledge of my past sins in order to know me? No. He can know my heart, and know that I love God, and that I strive to live according to His will. He can know my deeds and my needs and provide for me now and with rewards in Heaven.

How can he know your heart/mind if he doesn't even know what you know? Seems really absurd brother.

Tell, me if your friend or spouse that you sinned against says something like, "I've forgiven you, I've forgotten about it, let's move on." Do you call them a liar too since in reality they can recall the sin? Do you take everything they say to an absurd extreme and assume they can delete knowledge from their minds? Of course you don't, so don't do the same thing to God based on what you have even admitted is speculative.

 

[Van]

Is "remember no more forever" a figure of speech? Is this just a Jewish idom which means I will not hold you accountable for your forgiven sin? The rule for accepting something a literal or figurative, is if the verse makes no sense literally, or if the literal sense would create a conflict with another verse. Take the log out of your eye seems to be figurative because a log would not fit into a person's eye. And the idea, look to your own understanding before you try to correct someone elses understanding is not diminished by accepting the figurative meaning.

But if God says He does not remember, but actually remembers but does not count it against you, that would make God a liar. So it creates more problems by thinking the phrase is figurative, than accepting it as literal. And the literal meaning causes no problems with context or the balance of scripture. Could God literally do it? Yes, all things are possible with God. Are there other examples where God limits His knowledge according to His purpose. Yes, lots of them.

Folks, the problem is the false doctrine of total omniscience. It is a fiction. But rather than accept the biblical view, inherent omniscience, folks seek to rewrite verse after verse after verse. I could cite 10 verses, and the answer would be the same. The Bible does not mean what it says when it says total omniscience is unbiblcial.

 

[jbh28]

Is "remember no more forever" a figure of speech? Is this just a Jewish idom which means I will not hold you accountable for your forgiven sin? The rule for accepting something a literal or figurative, is if the verse makes no sense literally, or if the literal sense would create a conflict with another verse. Take the log out of your eye seems to be figurative because a log would not fit into a person's eye. And the idea, look to your own understanding before you try to correct someone elses understanding is not diminished by accepting the figurative meaning.

But if God says He does not remember, but actually remembers but does not count it against you, [removed comment]. So it creates more problems by thinking the phrase is figurative, than accepting it as literal. And the literal meaning causes no problems with context or the balance of scripture. Could God literally do it? Yes, all things are possible with God. Are there other examples where God limits His knowledge according to His purpose. Yes, lots of them.

Folks, the problem is the false doctrine of total omniscience. It is a fiction. But rather than accept the biblical view, inherent omniscience, folks seek to rewrite verse after verse after verse. I could cite 10 verses, and the answer would be the same. The Bible does not mean what it says when it says total omniscience is unbiblcial.

You still haven't addressed the definition of "remember."

 

[DHK]

Folks, the problem is the false doctrine of total omniscience.

It is not a false doctrine. Anything less than total omniscience robs God of his deity.

But rather than accept the biblical view, inherent omniscience,

This is not the biblical view but only your view. It is beyond the scope of orthodoxy. What other reliable commentaries believe the same? The only thing you back your doctrine up with is your own changed definitions. Thus it becomes circular reasoning.

folks seek to rewrite verse after verse after verse.

I will stick to the KJV if you like and show you that God is eternally the same, immutable, and omniscient--defined exactly as the etymology of the word says--all knowing.

I could cite 10 verses, and the answer would be the same.

From our perspective the answer is always the same. God doesn't change. He is omniscient. He knows all. He knows the number of hairs on your head and on everyone else's head. How is that possible unless he is omniscient? He knows at any given time when a sparrow falls to the ground. How is that possible unless he is omniscient?

The Bible does not mean what it says when it says total omniscience is unbiblcial.

Just what do you mean when you say that statement.
The Bible means what it says. God is totally omniscient.

 

[Skandelon]

Van, does God know what men think?

 

[DHK]

BTW Van, just as an aside.

I remember you had a problem with the translation of Acts 15:18:

Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world. (Acts 15:18)

--Let me address that for you, if I may. It is the right translation. The problem is the text from which it is translated. I use the KJV, and I believe the TR or at least the Majority Text is that group of manuscripts where the Word of God is preserved for us today. I don't want a debate on this. That is my conviction. In other words I am not a Westcott-Hort man. I do not favor the Critical Text. So I have provided you the actual TR Greek for this verse, and then below that the W-H for the same. You can see the difference. Most modern translations are translated from texts that are based on W-H texts, and thus the verse is shortened. The KJV contains the full verse. It is not a mistranslation.


gnwsta ap aiwnoV estin tw qew panta ta erga autou (Acts 15:18) TR


gnwsta ap aiwnoV (Acts 15:18) W-H


(I don't have the software to put it into actual Greek letters)

 

[Amy.G]

When God says He will remember our sins no more it is because there are no sins to remember. He has blotted them out. They are gone. They have been expunged from our record. The blood of Christ doesn't just cover our sins as did the sacrificial blood of animals. It washes them away and we become white as snow, without sin. There is no sin for God to remember.



Acts 3:19 Repent therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;

 

[Van]

Reply to Amy

When God says He will remember our sins no more it is because there are no sins to remember. He has blotted them out. They are gone. They have been expunged from our record. The blood of Christ doesn't just cover our sins as did the sacrificial blood of animals. It washes them away and we become white as snow, without sin. There is no sin for God to remember.

Acts 3:19 Repent therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;

Yes, when we are spiritually placed in Christ we undergo the circumcision of Christ where our body of flesh [sin] is removed. Our sin is forgiven, and God promises to remember them no more forever. Some say God cannot choose not to know everything imaginable, but that is a low view of God. They will tell you that blotted out does not really mean God does not still have a record of those sins, that this too is just a figure of speech. Each and every verse that says God can choose to limit His knowledge will be made to no effect by those who trust in man-made doctrine, even in the face of many verses and passages that clearly teach God limits His knowledge.

 

[jbh28]

Yes, when we are spiritually placed in Christ we undergo the circumcision of Christ where our body of flesh [sin] is removed. Our sin is forgiven, and God promises to remember them no more forever. So say God cannot choose not to know everything imaginable, but that is a low view of God. They will tell you that blotted out does not really mean God does not still have a record of those sins, that this too is just a figure of speech. Each and every verse that says God can choose to limit His knowledge will be made to no effect by those who trust in man-made doctrine, even in the face of many verses and passages that clearly teach God limits His knowledge.

Just can't admit when your wrong can you. You haven't address "remember no more" other than misrepresenting. You add to the definition of "remember no more" to mean that God has no knowledge of the sins. That's not what the Scripture teaches. So until you can prove that "remember no more" means that all knowledge of the event is not possible, then you cannot use this as your argument. That by the way would leave your arguments to about...say...0

 

[Van]

I admit when I am wrong and have do so many times. So why do you continue to make false charges against me.

Here are some of the verses that bear on the discussion.

1. Psalm 83:4
2. Psalm 88:5
3. Proverbs 31:7
4. Isaiah 54:4
5. Jeremiah 11:19
6. Jeremiah 31:34
7. Hebrews 8:12
8. Hebrews 10:17

If you look at these verses, you find no support for the idea that the forgiven sin is not blotted out. The theme is consistent, when a person or thing dies or is blotted out, its name (what is known concerning the person or thing) perishes. See Psalm 41:5 for example. (Psalm 109:13 also) So the idea conveyed in each and every case is an actual loss of the memory of the person or thing in view. Not a figurative "will not hold it against you" idea.

I do not need to prove or provide more evidence for my position, I am supporting my position with a straightforward reading of the text. It is the advocates of the false doctrine to Total Omniscience that need to demonstrate from scripture some actual support for the notion that God cannot limit His knowledge according to His purpose.

 

[Van]

A quick aside. I accept the NASB as providing our best understanding of the underlying Greek text. It is fine for others to trust in other texts, I do not have a dog in that fight.
To support doctrine from the KJV (TR text) that is not supported also from the Nestle Greek text is simply without merit. As Dr. Wallace has observed, the KJB provides 110% of the word of God, i.e. 10% has been added to the text.

 

[jbh28]

I admit when I am wrong and have do so many times. So why do you continue to make false charges against me.

I made no false charge against you.

Here are some of the verses that bear on the discussion.

1. Psalm 83:4

They say, “Come, let us wipe them out as a nation;
let the name of Israel be remembered no more!
Point for me. Do you think people won't have any knowledge of Israel?

2. Psalm 88:5
3. Proverbs 31:7
4. Isaiah 54:4
5. Jeremiah 11:19
6. Jeremiah 31:34
7. Hebrews 8:12
8. Hebrews 10:17

If you look at these verses, you find no support for the idea that the forgiven sin is not blotted out.

Never said anything against this. Nice red herring though.

The theme is consistent, when a person or thing dies or is blotted out, its name (what is known concerning the person or thing) perishes.

so god doesn't know their name anymore?

See Psalm 41:5 for example. (Psalm 109:13 also) So the idea conveyed in each and every case is an actual loss of the memory of the person or thing in view. Not a figurative "will not hold it against you" idea.

I do not need to prove or provide more evidence for my position, I am supporting my position with a straightforward reading of the text. It is the advocates of the false doctrine to Total Omniscience that need to demonstrate from scripture some actual support for the notion that God cannot limit His knowledge according to His purpose.

No, again you fail in your understanding of the term "remember." Go grab a dictionary and look it up. You are making the definition of "remember no more" to mean that the knowledge vanishes from the mind of God and that's simply not the meaning of the term. Even if I don't remember something, I still have the knowledge of the something. This is something you have failed to address but have just sidestepped it.

 

[Skandelon]

This is something you have failed to address but have just sidestepped it.

Jbh, just forgive Van and remember it no more. :type:

 

[Van]

I say again, how many verses will be ignored to cling to false doctrine. I have provided a pretty good list of the "remember no more" verses and found no support for something other than literal.

How can a person remember no more unless it is blotted out from being remembered? And how can something be blotted out without the ability to blot out, to limit knowledge? Psalm 109:14. The alternative is to let our sin be before the Lord continuously. If it is not before the Lord continously, did not God put it where it is "remembered no more." Verse after verse after verse. How many will it take?

 

[jbh28]

I say again, how many verses will be ignored to cling to false doctrine. I have provided a pretty good list of the "remember no more" verses and found no support for something other than literal.

How can a person remember no more unless it is blotted out from being remembered? And how can something be blotted out without the ability to blot out, to limit knowledge? Psalm 109:14. The alternative is to let our sin be before the Lord continuously. If it is not before the Lord continously, did not God put it where it is "remembered no more." Verse after verse after verse. How many will it take?

Because in ALL of them, remember no more doesn't mean that you don't have any knowledge of the event/person. You can quote 30 more if you like, but you have yet to prove that "remember no more" in these verses(or anywhere for that matter) means to have no more knowledge of.