the attributes of god

DHK says he is not a Calvinist but is unwilling to say any doctrine of the TULIP is false. Who knew.

Saying everything is timeless is like saying all means everything imaginable. Unsound, non-contextual, and simply an effort to read man-made doctrine into scripture.

 

We are not at liberty to change the meanings of words to our own fancy.

Such statements as the above imply that someone has indeed changed the meaning of a word for the purpose of fulfilling there own fancy or desire or point of view. But, since the meaning of "all" which I supplied, is consistent with definitions found in lexicons, I did not change the meaning. But changing the meaning, rewritting text, can be based on objective evidence. The verse says this, but I or someone else says it actually means that. However, to say such a view was based not on a genuine effort to present the truth, but rather an effort of knowing perversion, to something we fancy, is to to claim "mind reading" ability. It is simply an attack on character.

 

Reply to Skandelon

First, I did not say nor suggest you believe God is a liar. I said you are saying God is a liar because you are saying that God does not actually mean what He says. He remembers no more our sins forever. You say He does, but just does not count them against us. But that is not what He literally said. He says "now I know" indicating before "now" He did not know, but you say He really knew. But then again, that says God is not telling the truth. Jesus said He did not know the time of His return, only the Father knew, but again, you say Jesus knew. So Jesus was lying yet again. That is how I see your position.

It is not that I hold an odd ball view, many people read these texts and many others, and conclude if God was presenting the literal truth, He can and does limit His knowledge for His purpose.

 

Hi Skandelon, my position is based on what the bible says, your position is based on something the Bible does not say. The Bible says Jesus knows all things, yet does not know the time of His return. Therefore, to reconcile these two verses, logical necessity requires that all things does not refer to everything imaginable, but only whatever the author had in view, and whatever that was, it did not include Jesus knowing the time of His return. My view is not conjecture. It is inescapable.

 

Reply to Jesusfan,

Has there ever been a time? Yes, when God said "now I know" that says before "now" God did not know.

Yes, God can learn. If He has chosen not to know something beforehand, then He can say when Abraham sets his mind on killing his son Isaac, now I know.

Third question, broken up into parts:
a) Did God cause all things? Yes, directly or indirectly. He created man with the ability to make autonomous choices, so when we make autonomous choices, He is the indirect cause. But because they are autonomous, He is not the author of sin.

b) Does God have perfect foreknowledge. Here we must define what you meant by "foreknowledge." Foreknowledge in the modern dictionary sense means knowledge of the future. If this was your meaning, God knows the future exhaustively, then no God does not have perfect foreknowledge because He has chosen not to know some future things, such as Jesus not knowing the time of His return.

But if by "foreknowledge" you were referring to the biblical usage, of knowing things declared or predestined in the past, and these things predestined have not yet occurred, then His knowledge of those future things is indeed perfect, He will bring about whatever He has purposed for no plan of God can be thwarted.

c) Does God exercise direct control of some things? Yes. He intervenes and brings about His purpose and plan. Has God chosen to directly control all things? No, because His purpose requires that we make autonomous choices, so He does not directly control our autonomous choices, such as to repent. Thus when we repent, we bring glory to God, fulfilling the purpose of creation.

d) Yes, God is free to do as He pleases, and He has chosen to directly control some things, and to allow other things to occur even when they are inconsistent with His desire. Rather than cause all men to be saved using irresistible grace, God allows men to believe or not believe in Christ autonomously, and then He chooses to save those whose faith He credits as righteousness, because that is according to His purpose and plan.

 

Skandelon, this thread is not about you. I did not call you a liar, nor did I say you thought God was a liar. I said you were saying God is a liar from my point of view!!!!!

And we have been all through the "God is not physical" effort to avoid the truth of scripture. God has no face, eyes, wings, hands, arms, feet, front, back, or whatever physical attributes. But God has spiritual attributes, intellect, will, and emotion. What you are trying to do is say because God refers to physical attributes and those are figurative, (proving "a") it follows that God's spiritual attributes are also "figurative." Nope, no sale. You have not made the case for "b."

We agree, we must seek the intent of the author. I think I am being more successful, and I think you are not being as successful. We could reverse that and probably have your position.

I am a simply guy. You effort to explain how God could remember and not remember at the same time makes no sense to me. It is like the mumbo jumbo Calvinists use to explain how God predestines everything but is not the author of sin. I believe the gospel is simple, even a child can understand it. Anytime someone defends a position with a paradoxical view, I simply say one or both the points of the dilemma are false.

If you believe Jesus did not know everything, but Peter said Jesus knew everything, then you agree with me. Somehow I doubt it. Did you not say Jesus the man did not know, but Jesus the God did know? Please correct my view if I have gone off the road.

If you said you did not "believe" he could do it, when you did believe he could do it, then you are not modeling Christ, who is truth, to the four year old. On the other hand, if you said you did not know, and of course you did not know, because you do not know the future, then you did not bend the truth. But God is not a man, such as having imperfect beliefs about specific future happenings, He knows what He knows about the future, and when He says, now I know, that may mean He hoped or desired Abraham would love God more than his son, but it sure does not mean He knew what He indicated He did not know. God is not a liar, it is impossible for God to lie.

 

Hi Jesusfan, I answered the questions in detail.

Can God will himself not to know everything? Yes, as demonstrated by the three verses I provided.

But now we have a new argument. Since God cannot sin, it must know all possible outcomes. This assertion is not logical. All God needs to know is that what He is doing is not sin.

Why not accept what scripture says? God remembers no more our sin. That means He can choose not to know things. Jesus did not know the time of His return, that means God can choose not to know things. God said, "now I know" indicating He did not know before the "now."

The biblical definition of Omniscience is God knows everything He has chosen to know. To go further is simply conjecture without actual biblical support. Why muddy scriptural understanding with pagan metaphysics?

 

Hi Jesusfan, I support my view of God from the Bible, so saying I do not believe in the God of the bible is without merit. Now I do not believe in what cannot be supported biblically. Who would?

I have shown why I believe the way I believe, and that many others also believe in at least a similar view. Why not accept what scripture says? God remembers no more our sin. That means He can choose not to know things. Jesus did not know the time of His return, that means God can choose not to know things. God said, "now I know" indicating He did not know before the "now."

The biblical definition of Omniscience is God knows everything He has chosen to know. To go further is simply conjecture without actual biblical support. Why muddy scriptural understanding with pagan metaphysics?

 

If God chooses not to know something, does that mean it was hidden from God? No, of course not.

There is no verse that says God has chosen to know all things that can possibly be known.

The doctrine of Immutability is valid, see the OP for the bibilical presentation of the doctrine.

Assertions without biblical support are without merit, scripture says God can remember our sins no more, and that Jesus did not know the time of His return. Therefore God can put things out of His memory, He can limit His knowledge according to His purpose. That is the biblcial view.

 

No one showed me that remember no more does not mean remember no more. It does.

And for the umpteeth time, Jesus is God and did not know, therefore God can limit His knowledge. You cannot evade this. Jesus was said to know all things, yet did not know this, therefore "all things" does not refer to everything imaginable, certainly not the time of His return.

The whole "total omniscience" doctrine is unbiblical.

No one knows how God's mind works outside of time, all such assertions are mere conjecture. The Bible never, ever and any time says God knows everything imaginable.
No verse will be forthcoming. Not one. God is said to be all-knowing, but the scope of "all" is not defined as everything imaginable. In fact, that meaning is precluded.

God knows everything He has chosen to know, and He choses to know or not to know, for His purpose. That is the biblical doctrine.