the attributes of god

[jbh28]

Leave out the personal comments please.

No, that's exactly what he's doing. He is reading the passage as a child would read it. It has nothing to do with him personally other than he is reading this passage as a child. I've done it before.

I was just about to make the same point.

Remember: to recall to the mind by an act or effort of memory; think of again

Forget: to be unable to recall

Choosing not to remember, by these definitions, would clearly be different from forgetting. God could be able to recall the knowledge of something but choose to not bring it to mind or recall it again so as to judge the man for doing it. Seems pretty straight-foward to me and we don't have God lying to anyone either.

correct

 

[Van]

Another Excellent Post

(1) It means God does not remember them forever. The Bible means what it says, unless such a view would create a conflict with another passage or passages. This view only creates a conflict with passages that say God is all knowing, if one defines all-knowing as referring to everything imaginable, rather than what can be derived from context.

(2) It means Jesus did not know the time of His returning. He had limited His knowledge. This demonstrates God can choose not to know future things, but can also know future things, because the Father knew.

(3) This means God did not know beforehand that Abraham would be willing to slay his son. So God can limit his knowledge and not know our future choices.

(4) Acts 15:18 says God knows the future things He declares. This is consistent with God knowing future things He has chosen to know. This verse in no way supports the unbiblical definition. It does not say God knows the future exhaustively.

(5) Ephesians 1:19 says God has surpassing power, i.e He is Omnipotent, and again says nothing about God having or not having the surpassing power to limit His knowledge according to His purpose and plan.

(6) 1 Peter 1:21 says Jesus revealed God to us, and that revelation was enhanced because God raised Jesus from the dead, and gave Him glory. Amen. But this verse seems non-germane to the topic.

(7) Yes God can choose to search our hearts and know our attributes and attitudes, and how we would react to a given situation. God certainly knew David's heart. But again, this is consistent with the biblical view of Omniscience. And the verses do not support the umbilical view. So they again are non-germane to the topic.

(8) Matthew 7:22-23 again demonstrates that Jesus knew the hearts of those He encountered, who called Him, Lord, Lord. But He never knew them, i.e had an intimate saving relationship with them. This passage, too, is consistent with the biblical view, God knows what He chooses to know.

(9) Last point, God does not lie, if He say something, we should accept it as truth, and not try and say God was misstating the fact because it does not fit with our man-made doctrine.

Shall we try again?

 

[Skandelon]

I just said you read like a child. That has nothing to do with your character or qualifications other than your reading skills are lacking...You have a weak god.

Suggesting someone's reading level is like a child is a personal insult and most certainly an attack on their qualifications. It is an incendiary personal attack and should be avoided as per rule #4.

Also, the insinuation that Van doesn't believe in the one true God because he disagrees with you on this point is a violation of BB policies. Just consider this a friendly warning.

 

[jbh28]

Suggesting someone's reading level is like a child is a personal insult and most certainly an attack on their qualifications. It is an incendiary personal attack and should be avoided as per rule #4.

I didn't say his reading level was that of a child. I said he is reading this as a child. Major difference.

Also, the insinuation that Van doesn't believe in the one true God because he disagrees with you on this point is a violation of BB policies. Just consider this a friendly warning.

Really, where is that at? I deleted that comment though.

 

[DHK]

I disagree with your statement here.
I do believe you are not recognizing metaphors when they are used.
I will give you a simple one.

A friend and I are offended at each other. Something has come up to cause us to to be somewhat angry with each other.
Later on we reconcile our differences and "bury the hatchet."
Literally, neither of us have a hatchet to bury.
So what does that mean? It means that we have forgiven each other and we won't bring the matter up again. Not bringing it up again, or burying the hatchet, is the same as forgetting it altogether, though that may be humanly impossible for each of us to do. We will always remember the incident. But as far as each one of us is concerned it is forgotten.

It is the same with the Lord. He is omniscient. He has "forgotten" our sins in that they will never be held against us. That is a promise. But in reality, being omniscient, he cannot forget anything. All knowledge belongs to him.

Shall we try again?
No answer Van???

 

[DHK]

Van, I believe that your definition is "your own," that is, man-made, one that you have arrived at without the Bible. I have demonstrated that the word omniscient in and of itself means "all-knowing."

"omni" + "science" = all + knowledge = all-knowledge or all-knowing.
We serve a God who has all knowledge and/or is all-knowing. There are many verses to back this up. Does the Bible contradict itself? If we stick by your definition then it does.

God cannot be less than all-knowing. If he is then he isn't God. In fact he is less than the other gods of this world.

--No good refutation of this theological term has been given. We use theological terminology. Or would you like to throw out: trinity, Christology, theology, atonement, justification, etc. If we throw out omniscient, why not throw out the rest of out theological terminology. Omniscient by its very definition and etymology means all-knowing. You cannot get by this one fact. It is you that has made up your own definition that is contrary to the Bible, to Bible dictionaries, and even to secular dictionaries. You lose on all three counts.

Then hear thou in heaven thy dwelling place, and forgive, and do, and give to every man according to his ways, whose heart thou knowest; (for thou, even thou only, knowest the hearts of all the children of men; ) (1 Kings 8:39)

The meaning is very clear. God knows the hearts of ALL men--of all the world from the beginning of creation throughout all eternity. There is no qualifiers here. All means all. He knows the hearts of all men. He is omniscient without qualification.

For he looketh to the ends of the earth, and seeth under the whole heaven; (Job 28:24)

From the ends of the earth (meaning the whole earth--everything there is to see), and see all there is under the whole heaven (now not just the earth but all the universe as well. He sees and knows absolutely everything. Nothing escapes his knowledge. He sees it all.

Yea, the darkness hideth not from thee; but the night shineth as the day: the darkness and the light are both alike to thee. (Psalms 139:12)

Whether it is in darkness or in light, there is not one thing hidden from God; not one thing! All is known to Him. He alone is omniscient. No one can escape from his omniscient. David couldn't. Read the entire Psalm to get even a better idea.

He telleth the number of the stars; he calleth them all by their names. (Psalms 147:4)

Another metaphor. How many stars are there in the universe. There is not a man, not even the most knowledgeable astronomer in the world today that knows. The number is beyond our knowledge, as God's knowledge is beyond our understanding. His knowledge is infinite, and a finite mind cannot comprehend an infinite God.

The eyes of the LORD are in every place, beholding the evil and the good. (Proverbs 15:3)

God's eye's see everywhere. They behold everything--good and bad. There is nothing he does not see or know.

Hell and destruction are before the LORD: how much more then the hearts of the children of men? (Proverbs 15:11)

God knows about hell and destruction. He knows even more about the hearts, the thoughts of every man that ever lived and ever will live. He is omniscient, for he knows all things.

Lift up your eyes on high, and behold who hath created these things, that bringeth out their host by number: he calleth them all by names by the greatness of his might, for that he is strong in power; not one faileth. (Isaiah 40:26)

There is no one but God that can name the stars. He alone is omniscient. He alone has such omniscient power.

And they prayed, and said, Thou, Lord, which knowest the hearts of all men, shew whether of these two thou hast chosen, (Acts 1:24)

Again his omniscient is stressed by the fact that he knows the hearts of all men that exist, existed, and will exist.

Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do. (Hebrews 4:13)

No creature is not unknown to God. He knows about all his creation in all ages. He is omniscient. There is not one bird that falls to the ground without God knowing about it. There is not a hair of a single person's head that is not counted--not in Christ's day, not in any age. He knows all--every thing.

Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world. (Acts 15:18)

Everything is known to God--from the beginning of the world throughout all eternity. He doesn't omit anything. He is omniscient.

The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God. (Psalms 14:2)

Again, he saw all mankind. Nothing was hid from him.

Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any. (Isaiah 44:8)

He is the only God that is omniscient. There is no Allah, no other gods; no one that has the eternal powers that Jehovah has. He has told us from that time and declared it.

--He is eternal, and his knowledge is infinite, beyond comprehension. He has not limited himself in any way.

Should need no repetition, should it?

 

[revmwc]

Psalms 103: 11 For as the heaven is high above the earth, so great is his mercy toward them that fear him.

12 As far as the east is from the west, so far hath he removed our transgressions from us.

1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

He removes the guilt and penalty, He forgives our known (confessed) and unknown (unrightousness). He knows our sins but HE cast them as for as the east is from the west and that is a really far piece. They never meet, and He recalls them no more.

 

[Skandelon]

I didn't say his reading level was that of a child. I said he is reading this as a child. Major difference.

Either way it is personally insulting and unnecessary. Maybe you could say something like, "You are looking at this too simplistically" or just skip it... I think anyone would take offense to what you said. I know I would have, but then again I'm pretty simple too.

Really, where is that at? I deleted that comment though.

Thanks for editing that. The Admin says that policy is covered in Rules 3 and 4. Implying someone is unsaved or worships the wrong "god," is probably to most personally insulting thing anyone could say to a fellow believer and has always been against BB policy ever since I can remember, though it may be enforced more regularly at differing times.

 

[Van]

Folks, note that the Calvinists think that their man-made definition is valid but another man-made definition is invalid. If this seems like a sound argument, there is nothing I can say.

Next, in the opinion of the Calvinist, no good refutation has been made. I kid you not, that was the statement. This is the sort of thinking that leads to the same person seeing themselves as judge and jury.

And again the falsehood is presented that "all-knowing" must refer to everything imaginable, rather than what the author had in view. Pure twaddle.

Knowing the hearts of all men refers to the men the author had in view, existing men, not fuiture men.

Seeing the whole earth addresses the earth as it exists, not the future.

The unbiblcial view is unbiblical because it has no actual support in scripture, just an idea added to scripture by men.

No verse, correctly translated says God's knowledge is infinite, just beyond our understanding. Repeating a mistranslation does not change the truth.

 

[jbh28]

Either way it is personally insulting and unnecessary. Maybe you could say something like, "You are looking at this too simplistically" or just skip it... I think anyone would take offense to what you said. I know I would have, but then again I'm pretty simple too.


Thanks for editing that. The Admin says that policy is covered in Rules 3 and 4. Implying someone is unsaved or worships the wrong "god," is probably to most personally insulting thing anyone could say to a fellow believer and has always been against BB policy ever since I can remember, though it may be enforced more regularly at differing times.

Thanks. I get carried away sometimes.

 

[jbh28]

Folks, note that the Calvinists think that their man-made definition is valid but another man-made definition is invalid. If this seems like a sound argument, there is nothing I can say.

Next, in the opinion of the Calvinist, no good refutation has been made. I kid you not, that was the statement. This is the sort of thinking that leads to the same person seeing themselves as judge and jury.

And again the falsehood is presented that "all-knowing" must refer to everything imaginable, rather than what the author had in view. Pure twaddle.

Knowing the hearts of all men refers to the men the author had in view, existing men, not fuiture men.

Seeing the whole earth addresses the earth as it exists, not the future.

The unbiblcial view is unbiblical because it has no actual support in scripture, just an idea added to scripture by men.

No verse, correctly translated says God's knowledge is infinite, just beyond our understanding. Repeating a mistranslation does not change the truth.

Could you please share with us where the Bible ever says that God doesn't know something? We have a very good support for God knowing everything(the Bible specifically says so) but I have yet to see one passage that says something that God didn't know. You attempted with the "remembers no more" but that was very easily shot down.

btw, it's not just Calvinist that believe that God is omniscient. Neither Skandelon or DHK are Calvinist and believe that God is omniscient.

also, if you don't agree, then don't use the term. Don't pretend to believe God is omniscient when you don't really believe that. If you believe that God doesn't know all things, don't say God is omni(all)scient(knowing).

 

[Skandelon]

Van, the only reason to argue for God's self-limited knowledge is if you accept the fallacious premise that foreknowing is equal to predetermining. Why do you accept that premise?

 

[DHK]

Folks, note that the Calvinists think that their man-made definition is valid but another man-made definition is invalid. If this seems like a sound argument, there is nothing I can say.

I am not a Calvinist Van, and have never been one.
My definition is more valid than yours because I can find it:
1. In the Bible.
2. In a Bible dictionary.
3. In a secular dictionary.
4. In the very etymology of the word.
--Van, you can do none of those things because your definition is man-made according to your own philosophy and ideas, and your refusal to accept proper hermeneutical principles of interpretation of the Bible.

Next, in the opinion of the Calvinist, no good refutation has been made. I kid you not, that was the statement. This is the sort of thinking that leads to the same person seeing themselves as judge and jury.

I gave you very good refutation. But you did not accept it.
Let me give you an example.
If I say, in my witnessing to an atheist:
"If I can prove to you beyond any shadow of a doubt that Jesus Christ arose from the dead proving that he is deity, will you accept my proof?"
His inevitable answer is "NO."
--You are like the atheist. If I give you irrefutable evidence, you will not accept it. Your mind is made up. You cannot be convinced.

And again the falsehood is presented that "all-knowing" must refer to everything imaginable, rather than what the author had in view. Pure twaddle.

That is like saying black doesn't have to refer to black; sometimes it can refer to white. Words have meanings. All-knowing means "all-knowing." We are not at liberty to change the meanings of words to our own fancy.

Knowing the hearts of all men refers to the men the author had in view, existing men, not fuiture men.

Seeing the whole earth addresses the earth as it exists, not the future.

That is not true. Take a look at least at one verse:

Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world. (Acts 15:18)
--"All his works from the beginning of the world," is not confined to the time of the author. It is a timeless verse that extends from the creation of the world throughout until eternity or at least to the end of the world. Either way it speaks of his omniscience, and that cannot be denied. Your argument fails in just this one verse alone.

The unbiblcial view is unbiblical because it has no actual support in scripture, just an idea added to scripture by men.

Yours is the unbiblical view. I feel ashamed that any Muslim reading this board will laugh and revel in saying that Allah is greater than Jehovah or Christ, because the very first attribute of Allah is that he is "all-knowing." Your view of God puts the God of Christianity as less than the God of Islam. It robs him of his deity.

No verse, correctly translated says God's knowledge is infinite, just beyond our understanding. Repeating a mistranslation does not change the truth.

That is so untrue it almost amounts to a lie. I wish you hadn't posted it.

 

[Van]

Hi DHK, which of the 5 points of the TULIP do you think are false doctrines.

You cannot find your definition in the bible, it says God is all knowing, but the context precludes your everything imaginable defintion of all.

My definition is consistent with the definition of all, meaning all of the group in view. Your assertions are false.

Next we have the usual mind reader assertion, DHK asserts he knows my mind. If this seems rational, there is nothing I can say.

All means all of the group in view, not everything imaginable.

Next, the mistranslation of Acts 15:18 is restated without ever addressing the actual text. God knows what He declared from long ago. That is all the verse says.

My view of God is consistent with scripture, yours is not. Truth is more important than claiming my God is bigger than your God. Such a view is without merit.

I have posted what I believe is the truth, and have attempted to support my view by specifically referring to scripture. The verse translated by some as infinite should be translated as beyond measure or beyond our understanding. That is the simple truth.

 

[Van]

Skandelon, the only reason to argue God limits His knowledge according to His purpose is because that is what the Bible says. Truth trumps speculation concerning Boettner's premise. You have no support for your view, just conjecture. Why did God look down to see something, Psalm 14, if He already knew the answer. Did God lie yet again? How many lies are you willing to attribute to God before you accept the truth of scripture.

The "God always knew everything imagainable" premise is simply unbiblcial. It is a hasty generalization, supported by conjecture and not by context.

 

[Skandelon]

Skandelon, the only reason to argue God limits His knowledge according to His purpose is because that is what the Bible says.
Truth trumps speculation concerning Boettner's premise. You have no support for your view, just conjecture.

The bible never uses the terms 'God limits his knowledge,' that is your 'conjecture'. Both of us are speculating as to how an infinite God relates within time a space. I accept the mystery. You attempt to reconcile it by drawing conclusion that the text never draws...(i.e. God must limit his knowledge)

Did God lie yet again? How many lies are you willing to attribute to God before you accept the truth of scripture.

Please don't accuse those who disagree with you as believing God is a liar. That is a false dichotomy (i.e. He either limits his knowledge or lies)

 

[JesusFan]

Hi DHK, which of the 5 points of the TULIP do you think are false doctrines.

just curious as to how discussion of TULIP got intermixed with if God is really perfect and complete in all of His attributes!
I will bite, believe in 4 points, not sure about limited atonement...

You cannot find your definition in the bible, it says God is all knowing, but the context precludes your everything imaginable defintion of all.

My definition is consistent with the definition of all, meaning all of the group in view. Your assertions are false.

Next we have the usual mind reader assertion, DHK asserts he knows my mind. If this seems rational, there is nothing I can say.

All means all of the group in view, not everything imaginable.

Next, the mistranslation of Acts 15:18 is restated without ever addressing the actual text. God knows what He declared from long ago. That is all the verse says.

My view of God is consistent with scripture, yours is not. Truth is more important than claiming my God is bigger than your God. Such a view is without merit.

I have posted what I believe is the truth, and have attempted to support my view by specifically referring to scripture. The verse translated by some as infinite should be translated as beyond measure or beyond our understanding. That is the simple truth.

just a few questions...
has there EVER been a time when God did NOT know everything that is possible to be known?
Did he EVER have to learn something new to Him?
Did God Cause all things, or does he have perfect foreknowledge, direct control over all that happens, but free to choose when to directly intervene, and when to 'allow" things to happen?

 

[DHK]

Hi DHK, which of the 5 points of the TULIP do you think are false doctrines.

Hi Van, glad you took the time to answer. I don't want to get into a discussion of TULIP here as that would derail this thread.

You cannot find your definition in the bible, it says God is all knowing, but the context precludes your everything imaginable defintion of all.

Why would you say context precludes any of the verses that I have quoted and explained to you? God is an all-knowing God, and the Scriptures I have given to you demonstrate that. Even if he refers himself to all-knowing to the people of that generation it is still true for our generation. God is timeless.

My definition is consistent with the definition of all, meaning all of the group in view. Your assertions are false.

God is timeless. He doesn't confine himself to any one group. If he did we would have to throw out the entire Bible, for it was completed 2,000 years ago--written to by a group of apostles, the last one dying before the first century was over. With your logic none of it would be applicable to us today.

Next we have the usual mind reader assertion, DHK asserts he knows my mind. If this seems rational, there is nothing I can say.

Where do you get that from?

All means all of the group in view, not everything imaginable.

Is that the same logic as Luke uses in John 3:16 when world only means the world of the elect or the world at Christ's time whichever fits best. But it can't mean the world of every age, the entire world that Christ died for because it would go against his theology.

Next, the mistranslation of Acts 15:18 is restated without ever addressing the actual text. God knows what He declared from long ago. That is all the verse says.

Here again is the verse:

Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world. (Acts 15:18)
(ISV) God, who knows everyone's heart, showed them he approved by giving them the Holy Spirit, just as he did to us. (Acts 15:8)
--God, literally, knows everyone's heart. He is omniscient.

But back to verse 18. Here is what Barnes says on the verse:

Verse 18. Known unto God, etc. Cmt. on Ac 1:24. The meaning of this verse, in this connexion, is this. God sees everything future; he knows what he will accomplish; he has a plan; and all his works are so arranged in his mind, that he sees all things distinctly and clearly. As he foretold these, it was a part of his plan; and as it was a part of his plan long since foretold, it should not be opposed and resisted by us.

My view of God is consistent with scripture, yours is not. Truth is more important than claiming my God is bigger than your God. Such a view is without merit.

Your view is without merit; unsupported by Scripture. You haven't supported it with Scripture.

I have posted what I believe is the truth, and have attempted to support my view by specifically referring to scripture. The verse translated by some as infinite should be translated as beyond measure or beyond our understanding. That is the simple truth.

I posted more than one verse. I posted many. And even in the one I posted commentaries agree with me that the omniscience of God is defended.

 

[Van]

DHK says he is not a Calvinist but will not say which doctrines of Calvinism are false. Who knew?

The subject of the timelessness of God is simply an evasion, changing the subject to something true.

The way we apply scripture to ourselves is through the process of deriving timeless principles, not by saying everything is timeless.

DHK now cannot read my mind! Who knew

As John uses "world" it refers to (1) fallen mankind or (2) the corrupt system of fallen mankind. It is no great feat of logic to define all as all of the group in view.

I am not interested in discussing mistranslations of Acts 15:18. If you want to support your view from the NASB, then we can discuss it. Otherwise, you are simply translation shopping and such an argument is without merit. And I certainly am not interested in someone who says it says something other than what it says. God knows what He declared long ago. I fully agree with this basic truth. It does not address what falls outside of His prophecies.

Let me see, God forgives our sins and remembers them no more forever. God said "now I know" when He stopped Abraham from killing Isaac. Jesus did not know the time of His return. Three separate verses supporting God limits His knowledge according to His purpose. So your assertion that I have not supported my position is without merit.

Truth is important. There are lots of folks that think like you do, but that does not move the football. It is a logical fallacy to say my view is correct because more people agree with me and with you. If you think otherwise, there is nothing I can say.

 

[DHK]

DHK says he is not a Calvinist but will not say which doctrines of Calvinism are false. Who knew?

Calvinism has nothing to do with this thread. This thread is about the attributes of God.

The subject of the timelessness of God is simply an evasion, changing the subject to something true.

Timelessness has much to do with this subject for God is an eternal being with eternal knowledge which cannot be limited. If it could then he would not be God. He would be less than God. I wish you could see that.
God is:
omnipresent
omnipotent
omniscient
eternal
immutable.

These are just a few of the attributes of God. And these attributes cannot be limited. What if we were to limit the other attributes as you limit his omniscience. Could God only operate at 50% power? Maybe the earth would fall out of its orbit?? Could God be only half present--only able to answer half the people's prayers because he can't hear the people on the other half of the world. Which half of eternity does God live in? Is God moody? He doesn't change. But if he is not immutable how can I appeal to his sense of justice? What kind of God do you serve once you start tampering with his attributes? A half-loving God? A half-merciful God? etc.
Words have meanings. They have meanings for a reason. There is a reason that omniscience means all-knowing without any qualification. God is infinite, timeless, eternal, as are all his attributes.

The way we apply scripture to ourselves is through the process of deriving timeless principles, not by saying everything is timeless.

Again, we serve a timeless God. He is eternal and his attributes are eternal.

DHK now cannot read my mind! Who knew

I never made that claim. Quote me if I did.

As John uses "world" it refers to (1) fallen mankind or (2) the corrupt system of fallen mankind. It is no great feat of logic to define all as all of the group in view.

So if the world is all the world, then omniscience is all knowing. Neither word needs to be limited. Why leave one unlimited and not the other.

I am not interested in discussing mistranslations of Acts 15:18. If you want to support your view from the NASB, then we can discuss it. Otherwise, you are simply translation shopping and such an argument is without merit. And I certainly am not interested in someone who says it says something other than what it says. God knows what He declared long ago. I fully agree with this basic truth. It does not address what falls outside of His prophecies.

Okay. You have made your point about Acts 15:18. You don't like the translation. That is no problem to me. Like I said I gave you many other verses. Let's take a look at a couple of others instead:

The eyes of the LORD are in every place, beholding the evil and the good. (Proverbs 15:3)

For the eyes of the LORD run to and fro throughout the whole earth, to shew himself strong in the behalf of them whose heart is perfect toward him. Herein thou hast done foolishly: therefore from henceforth thou shalt have wars. (2 Chronicles 16:9)
--Both of these verses declare the omnipotence of God. The eyes of the Lord are in every place. It clearly means that not only is he everywhere but knows all things. The idea is that he both sees all and knows all.
--The second verse expresses it even stronger. His eyes run to and fro throughout the whole earth. They are everywhere and know all things. You cannot escape from God or from his knowledge.

Let me see, God forgives our sins and remembers them no more forever.

You never answered me: What does "bury the hatchet" mean?

God said "now I know" when He stopped Abraham from killing Isaac.

It was a logical conclusion to the entire story. The story began by saying that God "tested" Abraham. God knew the outcome beforehand. It was as if he was telling Abraham that he passed the test. It was for Abraham's sake that he was saying this.

Jesus did not know the time of His return.

Already asked and answered if you had read my posts.
Jesus could have called 12,000 angels (his omnipotence) had he decided not to go through with the cross. But he didn't. He decided not to use his omnipotence at that time.
When he was on earth he lived as a man. He decided not to use his omniscience at times as well. That was one of those times. He decided not to know the time of his coming, as a man on earth. He limited himself deciding not to use many of his divine attributes. Otherwise he would not have suffered as he did on the cross.

Three separate verses supporting God limits His knowledge according to His purpose. So your assertion that I have not supported my position is without merit.

I just showed you how they don't support your position.

Truth is important. There are lots of folks that think like you do, but that does not move the football. It is a logical fallacy to say my view is correct because more people agree with me and with you. If you think otherwise, there is nothing I can say.

I think according to how the Scripture speaks.