The baptism in Romans 6:3.

[Alan Gross]

Alan, I often play the role of a Catholic or non-Baptist Protestant in the Debate Forums to spur a little more interest in the subject at hand.

This technique was used at my alma mater Calvary University in hermenuetics- very effectively as a teaching method.

So lets try again. It seems you know Greek, so...

3:11 ἐγὼ μὲν βαπτίζω ὑμᾶς ἐν ὕδατι εἰς μετάνοιαν ὁ δὲ ὀπίσω μου ἐρχόμενος ἰσχυρότερός μου ἐστίν οὗ οὐκ εἰμὶ ἱκανὸς τὰ ὑποδήματα βαστάσαι αὐτὸς ὑμᾶς βαπτίσει ἐν πνεύματι ἁγίῳ καὶ πυρί

you can see the preposition "en" in the passage is used and should render as does the ASV :
Matthew 3:11 I indeed baptize you in water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you in the Holy Spirit and in fire:

So the prepositional phrase "with the Holy Spirit" S/B "in the Holy Spirit" locative (Dana and Mantey Greek Grammar) not instrumental - understandable translation by Church of England baby baptizers.

So Jesus baptizes IN the Spirit not WITH the Spirit. To be forthright RE "en" - many/most grammarians say that "en" can be translated in some cases as "with" but I don't think so.

What evidenc(es) if any are there FROM THE TEXT of Romans 6 that water baptism is being spoken of seeing that the word water (hudor) itself is not found in the text?

The False Doctrine of Doctrines contrived from Preposition Determinations and Decrees can go into your blank pages in the back of your Bible.

 

[Alan Gross]

Start here

Baptism in the Early Church - Ministry Magazine

There has been ZERO 'evolution of Christian baptism".

Calvin had Baptists murdered who believed in Scriptural Baptism, by The Authority of God.

Baptist Baptism is what makes Baptists Baptists.

Catholics and Protestants have no Authority.

They know that.

 

[37818]

A cross reference to Romans 6:4, ". . . Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. . . ." is Colossians 3:12, ". . . Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. . . ."

Only the immersion in water gives the burial. The milk of the word on the teaching of baptisms, water, the Holy Spirit and the Lake of fire in the judgement. And then Jesus' death on the cross being the interpration of the baptism He said to His disicples He was yet to have. Water is the only one which gives a a burial.

Disagreement on this is not a matter of salvation. But merely denying that water immersion is being referred to, by burial in immersion does not provide a meaningful explanation of the teaching.

 

[Alan Gross]

A cross reference to Romans 6:4, ". . . Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. . . ." is Colossians 3:12, ". . . Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. . . ."

Only the immersion in water gives the burial. The milk of the word on the teaching of baptisms, water, the Holy Spirit and the Lake of fire in the judgement. And then Jesus' death on the cross being the interpration of the baptism He said to His disicples He was yet to have. Water is the only one which gives a a burial.

Disagreement on this is not a matter of salvation. But merely denying that water immersion is being referred to, by burial in immersion does not provide a meaningful explanation of the teaching.

I agree.

The denial of the Gospel Message of The Lord pictured in water baptism and an invention of something else being substituted having to do with an 'immersion' of someone, somehow, for some reason, in some way, that functioned as Another Gospel is what I meant be denying The Lord, by these funny-business ideas.

I was speaking to someone with a Testimony of Salvation, who are Saved, or to who it may concern.

Baptism in water identifies the death of The Old sinful person who's sins Have Been Buried when Jesus Buried them Away, and as opposed to an exclusive meaning of 'immersion only', the participant is permitted up to not drown.

 

[HankD]

A cross reference to Romans 6:4, ". . . Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. . . ." is Colossians 3:12, ". . . Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. . . ."

Only the immersion in water gives the burial. The milk of the word on the teaching of baptisms, water, the Holy Spirit and the Lake of fire in the judgement. And then Jesus' death on the cross being the interpration of the baptism He said to His disicples He was yet to have. Water is the only one which gives a a burial.

Disagreement on this is not a matter of salvation. But merely denying that water immersion is being referred to, by burial in immersion does not provide a meaningful explanation of the teaching.

All true, but I'm holding the fort on no water in Romans 6 (so far). Good point though as we in the 21st century also use the metaphor "buried" for a watery grave burial.

 

[HankD]

The False Doctrine of Doctrines contrived from Preposition Determinations and Decrees can go into your blank pages in the back of your Bible.

Alan, i often take a point of view which is contrary to tradition or orthodoxy in order to cause atrophied brain cells to fire.

Looks like it worked ey?

 

[Alan Gross]

Alan, i often take a point of view which is contrary to tradition or orthodoxy in order to cause atrophied brain cells to fire.

Looks like it worked ey?

Yeah, you pretended to pretend that junk, then pretended to be insulted when I called out The Mark of The Beast, for what would be The Mark of The Beast, when you now say you were pretending to have taken The Mark of The Beast.

Way to pretend to be insulted.

 

[agedman]

A cross reference to Romans 6:4, ". . . Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. . . ." is Colossians 3:12, ". . . Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. . . ."

Only the immersion in water gives the burial. The milk of the word on the teaching of baptisms, water, the Holy Spirit and the Lake of fire in the judgement. And then Jesus' death on the cross being the interpration of the baptism He said to His disicples He was yet to have. Water is the only one which gives a a burial.

Disagreement on this is not a matter of salvation. But merely denying that water immersion is being referred to, by burial in immersion does not provide a meaningful explanation of the teaching.

Are you saying that the Lord was buried at sea, for the way it seems presented immersion in water is the only baptism the believer encounters.

However, buried does not have to indicate the use of water.

Unlike the Church of Christ teaching, one does not have to be immersed in water to be saved, but the person does have to be immersed in Christ.

The typical baptismal formula statement is, “Buried in the likeness of His death, raised to walk in newness of life.” Unlike the passages you posted, we typically INSERT the word “likeness.” But the word is not part of the passages you gave.

Again, baptism is merely a picture of testimony to others.

Romans 6 is not discussing a picture testimony displayed to others.

 

[HankD]

Yeah, you pretended to pretend that junk, then pretended to be insulted when I called out The Mark of The Beast, for what would be The Mark of The Beast, when you now say you were pretending to have taken The Mark of The Beast.

Way to pretend to be insulted.

I did not use the word pretend.

 

[Alan Gross]

Are you saying that the Lord was buried at sea, for the way it seems presented immersion in water is the only baptism the believer encounters.

However, buried does not have to indicate the use of water.

Unlike the Church of Christ teaching, one does not have to be immersed in water to be saved, but the person does have to be immersed in Christ.

The typical baptismal formula statement is, “Buried in the likeness of His death, raised to walk in newness of life.” Unlike the passages you posted, we typically INSERT the word “likeness.” But the word is not part of the passages you gave.

Again, baptism is merely a picture of testimony to others.

Romans 6 is not discussing a picture testimony displayed to others.

"immersed in Christ"? What?

What is that? Are you nuts?

Never is the any such thing, anywhere.

You can't make up some crazy thing like that.

What in God's Name are you inventing?

I don't want to hear it.

 

[agedman]

"immersed in Christ"? What?

What is that? Are you nuts?

Never is the any such thing, anywhere.

You can't make up some crazy thing like that.

What in God's Name are you inventing?

I don't want to hear it.

Does not baptism actually mean immerse, submerge? Or do you have some other definition that you are using. Perhaps you need to consult the greek?

To distinguish HOW the word is aligned, the word MUST is accompanied by WHAT is immersed, submerged and INTO WHAT , ie. water, Christ, Spirit, .... There is no reason to assume the word baptism is always water baptism for the use is not separated only unto water, but for other uses in which one is submerged, immersed.

For the readers, let's review the facts:
Baptism means to immerse, submerge.

A believer is immersed. submerged into Christ. That is the teaching of Romans 6.

Alan, it is evident you disagree and want to place some manner of priority and significance upon ceremony.

Why you desire to do so does not oblige my agreement to your view in disregard to the teaching of the Scriptures.

Consider Baptism in EVERY instance DOES NOT mean water is associated, and if that is your view, it is in violation of such Scriptures as 1 Peter 3:21, Colossians 2:12, Ephesians 4:5, Luke 12:50, Romans 6.

 

[Alan Gross]

Does not baptism actually mean immerse, submerge? Or do you have some other definition that you are using. Perhaps you need to consult the greek?

To distinguish HOW the word is aligned, the word MUST is accompanied by WHAT is immersed, submerged and INTO WHAT , ie. water, Christ, Spirit, .... There is no reason to assume the word baptism is always water baptism for the use is not separated only unto water, but for other uses in which one is submerged, immersed.

For the readers, let's review the facts:
Baptism means to immerse, submerge.

A believer is immersed. submerged into Christ. That is the teaching of Romans 6.

Alan, it is evident you disagree and want to place some manner of priority and significance upon ceremony.

Why you desire to do so does not oblige my agreement to your view in disregard to the teaching of the Scriptures.

Consider Baptism in EVERY instance DOES NOT mean water is associated, and if that is your view, it is in violation of such Scriptures as 1 Peter 3:21, Colossians 2:12, Ephesians 4:5, Luke 12:50, Romans 6.

Bah-Zerk.

"A believer is immersed. submerged into Christ."

"immersed in Christ"? What?

What is that? Are you nuts?

Never is the any such thing, anywhere.

You can't make up some crazy thing like that.

What in God's Name are you inventing?

I don't want to hear it.

You told me, anyway.

"submerged into Christ."

What is that? Are you nuts?

Never is the any such thing, anywhere.

You can't make up some crazy thing like that.

What in God's Name are you inventing?

I don't want to hear it.

You told me, anyway.

I told you, "Bah-Zerk".

...

This is the explanation that is not baserk, but you won't get it, without God.

The Bible is to be rightly divided with The Spirit's Enablement, not the flesh wildly guessing and then holding onto a false notion, as if it is something real.

"there is a difference between being baptized in water in the name of Christ,

and

being baptized into Christ,
which believers in their water baptism are."

God Can Lead any Teachable Spirit, with a blank piece of paper and no preconceived rules, to exactly what is Revealed by God that differentiates these two statements.

...

Yours goes about "placing a lost soul into Union with The Second Person of The God head", without Conviction or Repentance and Faith, by some 'mechanism'.

A baptism, immersion, submersion mechanism.

What in this World?

Strangest thing I've seen yet, here.

A totally imagined invention.

Strong work.

 

[Alan Gross]

I did not use the word pretend.

The book reference began with words referring to, "the evolution of Christian baptism", concerning which, I do not pretend has happened in The churches Jesus Founded and Has been with on Earth, from the time He Ordained her, as His Divine Institution, where Scripturally Baptised believers have brought Glory to God, Perpetually, as He Promised His Bride, who, as a Corporate Invention He Called, "My church", the Organizationally have always practiced "one baptism", by The Authority of God.

Baptist Baptism.

This is what is going on in Romans 6, which is all Extremely Precious and Important to Jesus, regarding the Divine Ordinance of water baptism, in which believers enter into one of His churches, FOR COMMUNION with Him and have died to their flesh, in submitting to do so, after they are Saved.

Baptised believers are acquainted with Jesus' Death and picture it in a public demonstration in baptism, to Worship The One Who Died for them.

"were baptized into Jesus Christ, were baptized into his death:"


"and therefore must be dead to sin,
and consequently ought not to live,
nor can they live in sin.

This does not suppose, that some of this church were baptized persons, and others not;

but that some might be baptized in water who were not baptized into Christ:

there is a difference between being baptized in water in the name of Christ,

and

being baptized into Christ, which believers in their baptism are;

by which is meant, not a being brought by it into union with Christ,

which is either secretly from eternity,
or openly at conversion,
and both before the baptism of true believers;

nor a being brought by it
into the mystical body of Christ the church, "(note: since there is no mystical thing Associated with The Bible, or God)

" for this also is before it;

but rather it designs a being baptized,
or a being brought by baptism
into more communion with Christ,

into a participation of his grace and benefits; (by committing their lives, in JOINING THE LORD'S CHURCH BODY ASSEMBLED WHERE THEY ARE, TO WORSHIP AND LEARN, AND SERVE GOD).
or into the doctrine of Christ,

and a more distinct knowledge of it:

the power of which they feel upon their hearts, and so have really believed in Christ, heartily love him, and make a sincere profession of him;

though rather the true meaning of the phrase "baptized into Christ", I take to be, is to be baptized purely for the sake of Christ,

in imitation of him,
who has set us an example,

and because baptism is an ordinance of his;

it is to submit to it
with a view to his glory,
to testify our affection for him,
and subjection to him,

without laying any stress or dependence on it for salvation;

such who are thus baptized,
are "baptized into his death";

they not only resemble Christ
in his sufferings and death,
by being immersed in water,

but they declare their faith
in the death of Christ,

and also share in the benefits of his death; such as peace, pardon, righteousness, and atonement:

now this proves, that such persons are dead to sin, who are so baptized;

for by the death of Christ,
into which they are (associating themselves, when they Testify He Died for them in being) baptized,

(and publically Declaring)
they are justified from sin;
by the death of Christ,

their old man is crucified,
and the body of sin destroyed;

besides, believers in baptism profess themselves to be dead to sin and the world, and their baptism is an obligation upon them to live unto righteousness."

Gill

Romans 6:3 Commentary - John Gill's Exposition of the Bible

 

[agedman]

"there is a difference between being baptized in water in the name of Christ,

and

being baptized into Christ,
which believers in their water baptism are."

You are going to have to prove by Scriptures that water baptism baptize believers into Christ.

Such is not a Baptist doctrine.

It is the doctrine of Church of Christ, Presbyterian, Roman Catholic. ... But not Baptist.

Baptists present baptism as a picture, a ceremony, but of no saving significance to the believer. This is exactly how the Scriptures do present, also.

This is not how you present.

God Can Lead any Teachable Spirit, with a blank piece of paper and no preconceived rules, to exactly what is Revealed by God that differentiates these two statements.

...

Yours goes about "placing a lost soul into Union with The Second Person of The God head", without Conviction or Repentance and Faith, by some 'mechanism'.

I have no such presentation. It is your "mechanism" of water baptism that is presenting such foolishness, not mine.

Such is totally assumed by you, and was never and has never been part of any presentation of Christ to the believers nor the unbelievers.

You also consider folks are tabla - rasa but that is a completely false and corrupt thinking. No one comes to the Scriptures tabla-rasa. Such thinking is just not supported by the Scriptures.

Baptism DOES NOT always include water.

I showed you Scriptures in multiple places in which immersion, submersion is used by the word Baptism, and not a single one involved water.

Do you actually attend to the Scriptures, or do you just make your view up to fit your own preconceptions? Most people do.