The Baptism with the Holy Ghost

[Darrell C]

We both agree that their understanding of this concept is wrong, correct?

Yep. But there are better things we can be doing with our time, brother.


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

Then explain Cornelius.

The Baptism with the Holy Ghost is our being immersed into God, and there are numerous occasions where this takes place in the New Testament.

Nothing to explain. You added to the word of God.

I added nothing:


John 14:15-18
King James Version (KJV)

15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.


John 14:20-23
King James Version (KJV)

20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

22 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?

23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.


Acts 1:4-5
King James Version (KJV)

4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.

5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.

Now you contradict yourself, because you just said...

No, I didn't. The passage is about accepting Gentiles into the church, not about some mythical, crazymatic "baptism with the Holy Ghost."

Again you call the Baptism with the Holy Ghost mythical, despite being verified by statements of John (the Baptist), Jesus Christ, and Peter:


Matthew 3:11-12
King James Version (KJV)

11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance. but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:

12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.


Acts 1:4-5
King James Version (KJV)

4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.

5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.


Acts 11:13-16
King James Version (KJV)

13 And he shewed us how he had seen an angel in his house, which stood and said unto him, Send men to Joppa, and call for Simon, whose surname is Peter;

14 Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved.

15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.

16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.



Truly Paul taught this as well, extensively, but, let's take baby steps and just try to see the Baptism with the Holy Ghost in these three passages. We can move on to implicit teachings after you forsake your rejection of a major Basic Principle of Christian Theology.


Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

I wasn't alive in the first century, so my own immersion into God did not take place then, which makes at least three Baptisms I know of beyond the Coming of the Spirit at Pentecost.

No, but the church was.

So you had eternal life prior to your conversion?

Because Christ went to Abraham...after He was glorified?

When were you immersed into God in eternal union, TCassidy?

More than once:


Matthew 3:11-12
King James Version (KJV)

11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance. but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:

12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.


Acts 1:4-5
King James Version (KJV)

4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.

5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.


Acts 11:13-16
King James Version (KJV)

13 And he shewed us how he had seen an angel in his house, which stood and said unto him, Send men to Joppa, and call for Simon, whose surname is Peter;

14 Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved.

15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.

16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.


Acts 19
King James Version (KJV)

1 And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,

2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.

3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.

4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.

5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.


Paul asks if they have received the Holy Ghost. When they say they are unaware of the doctrine of receiving the Holy Ghost, he asks...

...unto what then were you baptized?

And it is the same baptism contrasted with the Baptism with the Holy Ghost as we see in our first three mentions.

Even if you deny this refers to the Baptism with the Holy Ghost, we still have three critical mentions of it, which is two more than the one you suggest.

So again you accuse God the Holy Spirit, who Inspired the Bible, of being a liar! "One Lord. One faith. One baptism.

How, when I post the very Scriptures that make my point (that the Baptism with the Holy Ghost is mentioned more than once as you suggest (and reiterated only in the Gospels apparently)), am I making God a liar?

Would that charge better rest upon your shoulders, who have more than once (no pun intended) said the BAptism with the Holy Ghost is...

...mythical?

The Baptism in view is not water baptism, the text defines which baptism is in view:


Ephesians 4
King James Version (KJV)

4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;

5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.


It is our being baptized into Christ that is in view.

Anyone that thinks of water baptism here is ignoring the rest of the statement.

John's Disciples were Gentiles? Can you show me that in the text?

I never made that claim. Once more you just make things up as you go along.

That is the only conclusion that can be drawn when you say...

This event occurred in the upper room in Acts 2, never to be repeated except as an illustration that the church was to accept Gentile members.

...because John's disciples were baptized with the Holy Ghost in Acts 19. If the Baptism with the Holy Ghost was only to show Gentiles were accepted then we must conclude that John's disciples in the wilderness were Gentiles, right?


Acts 19
King James Version (KJV)

1 And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,

2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.

3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.

4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.

5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.


Now, here is the question I pose for you: When John said "I baptize you with water," what was the Baptism(s) contrasted with his?

Another: when Christ prophesied in Acts 1:4-5, and said, "Verily John baptized with water," what was the Baptism contrasted with?

Another: when Peter explained Cornelius' conversion, and said "John baptized with water, what was the Baptism contrasted with?

Another: when Paul states "John verily baptized with a baptism unto repentance," what do you think the Baptism that contrasts with that, which is relevant to believing on Jesus Christ was?


God bless.

 

[TCassidy]

So you had eternal life prior to your conversion?

Why do you think you have to lie to support your unsupportable opinion?

When were you immersed into God in eternal union, TCassidy?

I was saved by grace through faith in the finished work of Christ before you were born.

How, when I post the very Scriptures that make my point (that the Baptism with the Holy Ghost is mentioned more than once as you suggest (and reiterated only in the Gospels apparently)), am I making God a liar?

Because we both know you are lying. I posted the three times the Baptism was prophesied in the Gospels (all the same occasion reported by three different Gospel writers) and was said to happen "not many days hence" in Acts. And that is the only times such a baptism is mentioned in the bible.

 

[TCassidy]

You keep denying that being in Christ is the same thing as Christ in us.

Why do you keep lying about what I said. Everybody in the thread knows I never mention anything even slightly like the above.

 

[Darrell C]

So you had eternal life prior to your conversion?

Why do you think you have to lie to support your unsupportable opinion?

TCassidy, if you do not understand that questions posed in debate meant to receive an answer is not only common, but a method used by Christ and the Apostles, then you should head over to facebook.

You do understand the difference between a question and an assertion or charge, right?

Apparently not.

Now, watch how the next question gets an answer to which I can thrust my point home:

When were you immersed into God in eternal union, TCassidy?

I was saved by grace through faith in the finished work of Christ before you were born.

And the point is...

...you were not immersed into God prior to your birth.

The Baptism is not a one-time event as you have said...

Baptism in the Holy Spirit was a one time event. The indwelling of the Holy Spirit is what we all experience at the time of our conversion.

That is the purpose of the questions.

Now, here is the point your response to the question makes: the Baptism with the Holy Ghost, which has been clearly been shown as the time of salvation and when men are placed in God and He in them...is not a one-time event in the past.

Because we both know you are lying.

No, only you think that...and this based on a question, not an assertion.

How, when I post the very Scriptures that make my point (that the Baptism with the Holy Ghost is mentioned more than once as you suggest (and reiterated only in the Gospels apparently)), am I making God a liar?

Would that charge better rest upon your shoulders, who have more than once (no pun intended) said the Baptism with the Holy Ghost is...

...mythical?

The Baptism in view is not water baptism, the text defines which baptism is in view:


Ephesians 4
King James Version (KJV)

4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;

5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.


It is our being baptized into Christ that is in view.

Anyone that thinks of water baptism here is ignoring the rest of the statement.

I posted the three times the Baptism was prophesied in the Gospels (all the same occasion reported by three different Gospel writers) and was said to happen "not many days hence" in Acts.

Here is what you said:

This statement nullifies itself. The fact is that it is mentioned more than once, takes place more than once, and is spoken of in many places in other terms, such as being in Christ, and being baptized into Christ.

No, it is mentioned once, then repeated 3 times. You do know that the Gospels tell of the same events from different perspectives, don't you?

My statement is in response to...

Baptism in the Holy Spirit was a one time event.

The baptism in the Holy Spirit is only mentioned ONCE in the bible, in
Matthew 3:11 and is repeated in Mark1:8, Luke 3:16 and John 1:33, but all are referring to the same event.

I gave you Acts 1:4-5, Acts 11:13-18 (which defines the events of Acts 10, which is another mention of the Baptism with the Holy Ghost), and Acts 19.

And that is the only times such a baptism is mentioned in the bible.

And I have given you other Scriptures, none of which ever appear in your quotes.

How do you expect to debate Doctrine if you never discuss the actual Scriptures the Doctrine is based on?


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

You keep denying that being in Christ is the same thing as Christ in us.

Why do you keep lying about what I said. Everybody in the thread knows I never mention anything even slightly like the above.

When we are saved the Holy Spirit comes to indwell us. Indwelling is NOT baptism. Indwelling is the Spirit in you. Baptism is you in the Spirit. Just as water baptism is you in the water, not the water in you.

I am not seeking a distinction. I am just smart enough to know that baptism (you in the water) is not indwelling (the water in you) and are not the same thing.

No, indwelling is NOT baptism. Again, when we were baptized we were in the water but the water did not indwell us. Different things.

No, us in the Spirit is not the same as the Spirit in us just as the water in us is not the same as us in the water. Simple English grammar.

I am very clear. It is just that you lack the capacity to understand. You invent the error that the Baptism of the Holy Spirit is synonymous with being baptized into Christ (which is not in the bible).

And here is the argument I presented:

When we are saved the Holy Spirit comes to indwell us.

This is true. And it is the same event as we being in God:


John 14:20-23
King James Version (KJV)

20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

22 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?

23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.


The indwelling of God the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost is synonymous with our being in Christ, and He in us.

The distinction you seek to make does not exist.

God bless.

 

[Yeshua1]

Yep. But there are better things we can be doing with our time, brother.


God bless.

Fighting for the true Gospel is worth our time, as many Charasmatics are being force fed a false one...

 

[JonShaff]

We need to address their errors though, as their Charasmatic Chaos has crept in unawares into modern churches!

And cold, dead, unloving Christianity is even more paralyzing.

 

[Yeshua1]

And cold, dead, unloving Christianity is even more paralyzing.

That Christianity though, while not acting as it should, still has theology that saves....

 

[JonShaff]

That Christianity though, while not acting as it should, still has theology that saves....

You're painting with a very broad brush implying anyone who is "Charismatic-y" doesn't preach a gospel that saves.

 

[Yeshua1]

You're painting with a very broad brush implying anyone who is "Charismatic-y" doesn't preach a gospel that saves.

that is why i stated "many", as there are indeed some preaching and teaching the true Gospel message, but many Charasmatic teachers, especially in the wealth and health crowd, modern day revelations from god, are not!

 

[JonShaff]

Here are some that believed in an additional Work of Grace/Second blessing/Additional Anointing...

Martin Lloyd-Jones
Spurgeon
Wesley
Moody
Torrey
Paul Washer

Yep, i'm comfortable with that Crowd.

 

[JonShaff]

that is why i stated "many", as there are indeed some preaching and teaching the true Gospel message, but many Charasmatic teachers, especially in the wealth and health crowd, modern day revelations from god, are not!

And you're in every service, everywhere, every time they preach? While i do not agree with Fringe groups that are obviously in error, i'd be careful Not to be like James or John wanting to bring fire down from heaven upon them.

 

[Yeshua1]

And you're in every service, everywhere, every time they preach? While i do not agree with Fringe groups that are obviously in error, i'd be careful Not to be like James or John wanting to bring fire down from heaven upon them.

Not upon them who are caught up in bad theology, but to those heretical teachers and preachers who are spreading damnable heresies!

 

[TCassidy]

And cold, dead, unloving Christianity is even more paralyzing.

How very true.

 

[TCassidy]

That Christianity though, while not acting as it should, still has theology that saves....

What good is correct soteriology if you never share the Gospel with anyone?

 

[Yeshua1]

What good is correct soteriology if you never share the Gospel with anyone?

Not much, but still better than sharing theology that does not save!

 

[TCassidy]

You're painting with a very broad brush implying anyone who is "Charismatic-y" doesn't preach a gospel that saves.

Exactly. It is not the Gospel that saves. It is God that saves. The Gospel is the means God uses to draw the lost to Himself.

 

[JonShaff]

Not upon them who are caught up in bad theology, but to those heretical teachers and preachers who are spreading damnable heresies!

I would hope discerning men and women of God have righteous indignation towards those who spread a counterfeit Gospel. But your sentiments could be equally said from continuationists towards cessationists