The best question…

[canadyjd]

If you say so. You are free to use an inconsistent interpretive system if you like. But I don't see an address of the points I made. Why not?

So in the Old Testament God did something one way ...

So there is no Satan. Okay. That's good news.

So what's the point of the allegory? And why do you call these allegories prophecy, lol. Make up your mind, are they allegory, or prophecy?

If you change your mind, and decide they are prophecy, when will they be fulfilled?

See the problem?

I would direct you back to Revelation's beginning, and the fact that what is revealed is said to take place at a future time. But according to God—they are going to happen. The problem for the amillenialist and the preterist (or the idealist) is that they simply can't provide any time in history when, like the prophecy of Isaiah, these things have been fulfilled, or a valid reason why they will not be.

So again I will ask:

You are the one saying, after all, that Revelation is not to be taken literally.

I guess we can place Revelation 21 and 22 in the allegory file?

And to you,

God bless.

Jesus tells John to write down the things that have been (past tense), the things that are (present tense) and the things that shall be (future tense). Not everything in Revelation is prophecy, though you are free to use your inconsistent and unbiblical interpretive system if you choose to do so.

John writes in repeating themes, not chronological order. He did so in his gospel and in Revelation. The scene of the great throne judgment would have been immediately recognized by his audience. The “Bema seat” courts were great spectacles in the first century with high officials, sometimes a king or emperor, sitting in judgment hearing cases.

Two types of cases had seven seals: death penalty cases and last will and testaments. Only certain people had the authority to open the seals on these scrolls.

Each seal had a tiny “tag” that described the contents of that section.

John described the summary on each seal and then describes the contents after each seal is broken. This fits with his habit of writing in repeating themes, not chronological order.

People misunderstand Revelation when they attempt to place the events in chronological order and do not see the repeating themes.

Added to that confusion is the apocalyptic nature of much of the passages that uses figurative speech, allegory, symbols and such.

Much is not to be taken “literally” but as a figurative representation of that truth God wants us to understand. That is consistent with apocalyptic literature both in the OT and the NT.

I notice you are beginning to insult me which is unfortunate as I tend to return such insults in kind and it distracts from the conversation.

If you wish to continue the conversation without the insults, I’d be happy to continue. Otherwise, I’ll bow out.

peace to you

 

[Darrell C]

First, let me say that the perceived insult is nonexistent: you are likely to be insulted in discussions that deal with a view that is indefensible.

This is why you continue to ignore direct questions: because you cannot provide a reasonable answer. I am sorry your view leaves you in this position, but if you would simply answer questions posed to you that are meant, not to insult, but to show the problems your view has, then we would have a discussion.

Jesus tells John to write down the things that have been (past tense), the things that are (present tense) and the things that shall be (future tense).

And, past, present, and future—everything is linked to Prophecy. For example ...

Revelation 1

17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:

18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

Not necessarily a prophetic statement, but linked to Prophecy of both Old and New Testaments.

Not everything in Revelation is prophecy,

And this is a false argument: quote me saying every word in Revelation is Prophecy.

though you are free to use your inconsistent and unbiblical interpretive system if you choose to do so.

Hmm, seems I have heard that somewhere before.

A discussion will reveal the inconsistencies, and you have provided several in this post. I'll be glad to look at what you find inconsistent in my own interpretations.

John writes in repeating themes, not chronological order.

On the contrary. If you look at the events (not themes), you will see yo cannot make the seal judgments equate to the Trumpet, or the Trumpet to the Bowls. And there is most definitely a chronological order. Despite the fact that Christ's spiritual ministry of Eternal Redemption through the Cross was a mystery, as was the period of time between His First Coming and His Second, we still see a chronological order in Old Testament Prophecy.

God's Word is consistent, and a chronological order helps one to understand the events that are said by the Lord to happen at a future date.

He did so in his gospel and in Revelation.

Be glad to look at examples. It's a little difficult to know how you perceive this random nature of Scripture without them.

The scene of the great throne judgment would have been immediately recognized by his audience.

I agree: most who had a basic grasp of Prophecy in those days would have known of the general resurrection of the dead. What they would not have known was the Lord would remove believers from the world prior to the Tribulation (which they also knew about).

Why? Because Scripture is consistent. All prophecy will be fulfilled to the jot and tittle, regardless of whether people understand it, or specific revelation and understanding of that revelation is given by God (a necessity of all spiritual truth).

Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

The “Bema seat” courts were great spectacles in the first century with high officials, sometimes a king or emperor, sitting in judgment hearing cases.

Not sure why you would see this as relevant.

Two types of cases had seven seals: death penalty cases and last will and testaments. Only certain people had the authority to open the seals on these scrolls.

Again, I see no relevance to the discussion at hand.

Each seal had a tiny “tag” that described the contents of that section.

Okay.

John described the summary on each seal and then describes the contents after each seal is broken. This fits with his habit of writing in repeating themes, not chronological order.

Are you suggesting that the Seal Judgments are not opened chronologically?

You might want to explain their titles: First Seal, Second Seal, etc.

People misunderstand Revelation

Not everyone.

when they attempt to place the events in chronological order and do not see the repeating themes.

I tend to find those things Scripture places in an order and specifies that order as first, second, etc. as chronological.

Now, show me the prophecy of the Old Testament that meets the standard of your system. That's all you have to do.

Added to that confusion is the apocalyptic nature of much of the passages that uses figurative speech, allegory, symbols and such.

There is no allegory in the Prophecy of Revelation. Revelation itself is not an allegory. It is a detailed revelation of that which is to come. Most generally view Revelation Chapter Four as the beginning of revelation of future events. While we find parenthetical statements, there is no break in the chronology, and within the Prophecy we can determine that a seven year period is in view. The seven years is consistent with Old Testament Prophecy, particularly that found in Daniel. Daniel gives specific time-frames from the Abomination of Desolation that specify a three and a half year period. Within Revelation there are obvious pointers to two periods, each three and a half years long. This correlates to the Seventieth Week Daniel speaks of.

All of it consistent and chronological.

Much is not to be taken “literally” but as a figurative representation of that truth God wants us to understand.

I agree: it isn't really a dragon, but Satan is real. He really isn't a Lion, but Jesus Christ is real.

That is consistent with apocalyptic literature both in the OT and the NT.

Great, now all we need are examples.

They aren't there.

What we do find is a consistent judgment day that involves a physical Return of Christ, and the Kingdom prophesied throughout the Old Testament.

I notice you are beginning to insult me which is unfortunate as I tend to return such insults in kind and it distracts from the conversation.

No insult intended, and none given. But you are going to be insulted because of one reason: no one likes to be told their view is in error.

If you wish to continue the conversation without the insults, I’d be happy to continue.

You have my word, I can't make it any clearer. However, a discussion involves responses from both sides, and you have consistently ignored my questions, instead offering up your own views. I encourage you to take this discussion seriously. It is my opinion that those who err in eschatological errors compound that error in other doctrinal matters.

Otherwise, I’ll bow out.

Your choice.

peace to you

And to you.


God bless.

 

[canadyjd]

Not sure why you would see this as relevant.



Again, I see no relevance to the discussion at hand.



Okay.



Are you suggesting that the Seal Judgments are not opened chronologically?

You might want to explain their titles: First Seal, Second Seal, etc.



Not everyone.





I tend to find those things Scripture places in an order and specifies that order as first, second, etc. as chronological.

Now, show me the prophecy of the Old Testament that meets the standard of your system. That's all you have to do.



There is no allegory in the Prophecy of Revelation. Revelation itself is not an allegory. It is a detailed revelation of that which is to come. Most generally view Revelation Chapter Four as the beginning of revelation of future events. While we find parenthetical statements, there is no break in the chronology, and within the Prophecy we can determine that a seven year period is in view. The seven years is consistent with Old Testament Prophecy, particularly that found in Daniel. Daniel gives specific time-frames from the Abomination of Desolation that specify a three and a half year period. Within Revelation there are obvious pointers to two periods, each three and a half years long. This correlates to the Seventieth Week Daniel speaks of.

All of it consistent and chronological.



I agree: it isn't really a dragon, but Satan is real. He really isn't a Lion, but Jesus Christ is real.



Great, now all we need are examples.

They aren't there.

What we do find is a consistent judgment day that involves a physical Return of Christ, and the Kingdom prophesied throughout the Old Testament.



No insult intended, and none given. But you are going to be insulted because of one reason: no one likes to be told their view is in error.



You have my word, I can't make it any clearer. However, a discussion involves responses from both sides, and you have consistently ignored my questions, instead offering up your own views. I encourage you to take this discussion seriously. It is my opinion that those who err in eschatological errors compound that error in other doctrinal matters.



Your choice.



And to you.


God bless.

Thanks for the conversation

peace to you

 

[Darrell C]

Thanks for the conversation

peace to you

That was quick.

If you change your mind, please address the issue of how the Seal Judgments are not Chronological. Not trying to offend, but I would suggest to you that reliance in commentaries is a common issue for those that have embraced a system. I would recommend just sitting down and reading through Revelation. The more you read it, the easier it becomes to understand. I guarantee you that if you read it through five times, you are going to start having problems with some of the statements you have made in this discussion.

Peace be with you, as well,


God bless.