The best question…

[canadyjd]

Yes. While I have seen some "soul winning" techniques that are less than helpful and while I believe most of us do OK to live a Christian life before our neighbors and just be ready to give an answer to the hope that lieth in us - I think you certainly cause great harm when you don't even do that. I wish you would realize that Calvinistic determinism does not mean that what we do is not real or does not matter. Our failure to obey God and take the great commission seriously causes true and actual harm. The fact that God in his sovereignty knows what is going to occur and has taken all measures to have his ultimate will accomplished in all areas does not change the fact that a lack of diligence in this area is quite harmful.

Anyone. Calvinist or Primitive Baptist, who takes the idea of God's sovereignty to the point of using it as an excuse to believe that what you do doesn't really matter would be far better off to ditch the determinism if they cannot reconcile the two things. Thankfully, many determinists do fine. Most of the great mission movements were started by Calvinists and it was John Knox I believe who said "Give me Scotland or I die!" If anything, a good dose of Calvinism tends to keep "soul winning" real but does not hurt it.

I understand what you are saying. I’m having difficulty with your statement we do “great harm” when we don’t take the great commission seriously.

Great harm to whom? Unbelievers? Ourselves? To what ? The great commission? To the cause of Christ?

What scripture to you have to support the “great harm” statement that results from not taking the great commission seriously?

How do you define “take seriously”. The example you gave of being ready to witness to our neighbors, should the occasion arise, as a bare minimum effort hardly seems to fit the idea of taking something serioysly.

peace to you

 

[DaveXR650]

Did you open the link? It's not Jim Elliot.

I know. But I was replying to this:

Every attempt at contacting them is met with violence, yet according to scripture some will be in Heaven..

In the case of Jim Elliot we know for sure that some of the very same people who did the murder were later saved - after hearing the gospel. We have no assurance in scripture that a group that kills all missionaries and thus has not witness brought to them will be saved unless something changes in the future. Scripture does not say some will be in heaven no matter what. Whether God might have something in mind in such cases we don't know but I'm saying that is not correct to bring up on a thread where people are criticizing those who are intentional in "soul winning".

 

[DaveXR650]

No. Perhaps it's too deep for you to grasp. The heart quickened by God is the source of both our works and our faith, and, I quoted scripture, it wasn't "me talking", it's scripture.

I doubt it's too deep. Occasionally I even have an abstract thought. I actually agree with your statement. What I am saying is that intentional witnessing, call it soul winning if you want, and all other good works can be done deliberately, and intentionally and with a sense of duty and urgency, and still be perfectly in line with the concept of them being wrought by the Holy Spirit, or caused by a true faith which leads to works, or however you want to put it.

 

[DaveXR650]

I understand what you are saying. I’m having difficulty with your statement we do “great harm” when we don’t take the great commission seriously.

Great harm to whom? Unbelievers? Ourselves? To what ? The great commission? To the cause of Christ?

What scripture to you have to support the “great harm” statement that results from not taking the great commission seriously?

How do you define “take seriously”. The example you gave of being ready to witness to our neighbors, should the occasion arise, as a bare minimum effort hardly seems to fit the idea of taking something serioysly.

In theology, when you get into the metaphysics of it questions come up which are difficult to answer. If you are a devout Calvinist Christian and it is God's sovereign will that the new neighbor who moved in next to you would hear the gospel from you, and eventually be saved - well, what if you don't share the gospel when you had the chance. Does it matter? While I don't think it would take God by surprise if you don't, is it not true that you have disobeyed God and possibly caused great harm. Do we have the right to so depend upon a theology that we can disregard the revealed will of God and then turn around and appeal to his sovereignty as if you can't really do any true harm? I'm not saying you do that. I'm just saying that you have to wrestle with those issues if you believe in the meticulous sovereignty of God.

A theology that says it doesn't matter what we do simply doesn't work in real life and should be rejected. Fortunately, the Puritan Calvinists did not do this, nor did the later guys like Bonar and Spurgeon.

 

[Van]

SNIP

12 looking for and earnestly desiring the coming of the day of God, by reason of which the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 2 Pet 3

The Greek word offered above as earnestly desiring is a rewrite and redefinition of the words meaning as derived from every other usage of the word in the NT. But in this one verse, because its contextual meaning, its historical meaning is claimed not to mean hasten or hurry along. Got it!

 

[Van]

Are you in agreement with @Van that 'slacking soul winners' result in MORE people going to hell?

Please address the meaning of the verses cited, rather than attempting to make God's word to no effect.

1) How can we hasten the day of Christ's return, 2 Peter 3:12

looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be destroyed by burning, and the elements will melt with intense heat!​

2)

1 Corinthians 9:22 (NASB)
to the weak I became as weak, that I might gain [win] the weak. I have become all things to all men, that I might by all means save some. ​

Does this verse indicate Paul, rather than God actually saves individuals? Nope The idea is through evangelism, humans aid in bringing people to an understanding of the gospel, acting as ambassadors of Christ. How might we "win" or persuade or contribute to the understanding of lost individuals? Do we talk people into Christ? Nope. God alone puts individuals whose faith He alone credits as righteousness into Christ. But we can till the ground, helping to prepare an individual to receive the gospel, and we can plant, presenting God's word concerning the gospel, and we can reinforce a lost person's consideration of the gospel by fellowship and example.

At the heart of the issue is not anyone claiming to save people, a false claim used to deflect, but whether or not lost people can be receptive to our witness, which of course Calvinism denies, i.e. the "T" of the TULIP.

The context of 1 Corinthians 9:22 indicates Paul's evangelism might contribute to the eternal salvation of some, by tilling the ground, planting and watering. Those who object do not believe evangelism actually contributes to the faith of those of the fields white for harvest.

 

[Van]

SNIP

Once again this poster not only proves his ignorance of what the doctrines of the TULIP teach, he can only charge others with his malfeasance.

The answer is to nullify those whose doctrine hinder the ministry of Christ.

The false doctrines of the TULIP deny the gospel of Christ. Yes in passage after passage the biblical message has been misinterpreted to add the false doctrines of the TULIP into the text. That is a no no.

To point out false teachers misrepresent scripture and the views of others is not claiming to be a victim. It is to boldly proclaim the gospel of Christ.

Please consider this view:
Relocated and Glorified By God's Action Alone.

 

[canadyjd]

In theology, when you get into the metaphysics of it questions come up which are difficult to answer. If you are a devout Calvinist Christian and it is God's sovereign will that the new neighbor who moved in next to you would hear the gospel from you, and eventually be saved - well, what if you don't share the gospel when you had the chance. Does it matter? While I don't think it would take God by surprise if you don't, is it not true that you have disobeyed God and possibly caused great harm. Do we have the right to so depend upon a theology that we can disregard the revealed will of God and then turn around and appeal to his sovereignty as if you can't really do any true harm? I'm not saying you do that. I'm just saying that you have to wrestle with those issues if you believe in the meticulous sovereignty of God.

A theology that says it doesn't matter what we do simply doesn't work in real life and should be rejected. Fortunately, the Puritan Calvinists did not do this, nor did the later guys like Bonar and Spurgeon.

Ok, I’m not sure that I’ve ever heard any person that believes the doctrines of grace say “it doesn’t matter what you do”

I have heard, rarely, that “hyper Calvinists” hold God will save those He has chosen whether or not they ever respond to the gospel with faith. I’ve never met such people, and obviously such views are unbiblical.

Addressing your example, if I fail to witness to my neighbor, then I have missed the blessing of participating in the reconciliation of God’s people. I have “harmed” myself, I suppose, but God is able to hit straight with a crooked stick.

peace to you

 

[DaveXR650]

Ok, I’m not sure that I’ve ever heard any person that believes the doctrines of grace say “it doesn’t matter what you do”

And then:

Addressing your example, if I fail to witness to my neighbor, then I have missed the blessing of participating in the reconciliation of God’s people. I have “harmed” myself, I suppose, but God is able to hit straight with a crooked stick.

The logical conclusion being that although you may lose a blessing for yourself you cannot have any real effect on the reality of the situation. In other words "it doesn't matter what you do" because the will of God cannot be thwarted. The other replies people are making on this very thread show this, with some even saying people will be saved even if they never hear the gospel. I'm sorry. But this whole thread from the determinist side is saying that it doesn't matter what you do. And the sad thing is that that was never the position of practicing Calvinists, some of whom I have quoted and listed.

 

[canadyjd]

And then:

The logical conclusion being that although you may lose a blessing for yourself you cannot have any real effect on the reality of the situation. In other words "it doesn't matter what you do" because the will of God cannot be thwarted. The other replies people are making on this very thread show this, with some even saying people will be saved even if they never hear the gospel. I'm sorry. But this whole thread from the determinist side is saying that it doesn't matter what you do. And the sad thing is that that was never the position of practicing Calvinists, some of whom I have quoted and listed.

Well, I’ll just disagree because your focus is on the man doing something and not God doing something. Losing the blessings of our Lord doesn’t equal “it doesn’t matter what you do”.

The reality is that God has privileged us with the ministry of reconciliation of those He has chosen for salvation. We should be actively engaged in that ministry.

Ultimately, salvation is a work of God from start to finish. Jesus stated His sheep are in God’s hands and no one can take them out of His hands. That includes “slacking soul winners”.

Peace to you

 

[DaveXR650]

@canadyjd. I have seen and been involved in some "soul winning" efforts that are totally cringeworthy. I have read people from that camp stating that if you give them 30 minutes with anyone they can get that person saved. I have had a pastor of that school tell me that out of every 100 people he gets "saved" only 1 ends up an active Christian. I imagine that is what the thread is talking about and I agree with the craziness and damage that can cause.

Having some Calvinistic influence does two things. One, it is comforting to realize that ultimately God is indeed sovereign in salvation. And two, Reformed teaching emphasizes other important aspects of being a witness like living a holy life and being a good neighbor, not just being good salesman. But if someone has the guts and the personality to knock on every door in the town then they should. If you can street preach or organize a neighborhood bible study then you should. Others may just give to missions above and beyond the normal church budget. But I think what you do matters in a true and real manner. The fact that God is sovereign does not in any way change that fact.

 

[canadyjd]

@canadyjd. I have seen and been involved in some "soul winning" efforts that are totally cringeworthy. I have read people from that camp stating that if you give them 30 minutes with anyone they can get that person saved. I have had a pastor of that school tell me that out of every 100 people he gets "saved" only 1 ends up an active Christian. I imagine that is what the thread is talking about and I agree with the craziness and damage that can cause.

Having some Calvinistic influence does two things. One, it is comforting to realize that ultimately God is indeed sovereign in salvation. And two, Reformed teaching emphasizes other important aspects of being a witness like living a holy life and being a good neighbor, not just being good salesman. But if someone has the guts and the personality to knock on every door in the town then they should. If you can street preach or organize a neighborhood bible study then you should. Others may just give to missions above and beyond the normal church budget. But I think what you do matters in a true and real manner. The fact that God is sovereign does not in any way change that fact.

I agree with everything you posted and will add that it was stated well.

FTR, I have never said what Christians do does not matter.

What I have stated, as KRN pointed out, that to claim people are going to hell because of “slacking soul winners”, places to ultimate burden on Christians… that is the eternal salvation of people.

Such things belong to God Aline.

Peace to you

 

[Van]

Folks, ever hear the one about "the will of God cannot be thwarted." Is that something taught in the bible? Nope

What if the will of God is to set before individuals the choice of life or death, and to allow the individual to make that choice which alters the outcome of their life.

John 10:35 says scripture cannot be broken, which is to say it is true and to alter that truth is a no no.

Job 42:2 says no purpose (or plan) of God's can be thwarted. So if His plan and purpose is to allow individuals to seek God and trust in Christ, no Calvinist doctrine can thwart His plan.

Just because God desires all people to be saved does not require that God causes all people to be saved. The solution is God desires all people to be saved "according to His purpose and plan" which is to save those whose faith He credits as righteousness.

 

[canadyjd]

Folks, ever hear the one about "the will of God cannot be thwarted." Is that something taught in the bible? Nope

What if the will of God is to set before individuals the choice of life or death, and to allow the individual to make that choice which alters the outcome of their life.

John 10:35 says scripture cannot be broken, which is to say it is true and to alter that truth is a no no.

Job 42:2 says no purpose (or plan) of God's can be thwarted. So if His plan and purpose is to allow individuals to seek God and trust in Christ, no Calvinist doctrine can thwart His plan.

Just because God desires all people to be saved does not require that God causes all people to be saved. The solution is God desires all people to be saved "according to His purpose and plan" which is to save those whose faith He credits as righteousness.

God desires all people to come to a knowledge of the truth. All have rejected God as revealed to all in creation.

In His mercy, God has chosen some for salvation and through the power of God Holy Spirit, and the truth of Jesus Christ and Him crucified, God mak s it happen

Back to the OP…

Why do some people claim people are going to hell because of “slacking soul winners” and then spend an enormous amount of time on the BB starting threads to attack other believers?

I do realize that you are obsessed with attacking “Calvinism”, but , according to your philosophy, more people are going to hell because of “slacking soul einners”.

Why not live in a way that is consistent with what you claim to believe?

peace to you

 

[tyndale1946]

I doubt it's too deep. Occasionally I even have an abstract thought. I actually agree with your statement. What I am saying is that intentional witnessing, call it soul winning if you want, and all other good works can be done deliberately, and intentionally and with a sense of duty and urgency, and still be perfectly in line with the concept of them being wrought by the Holy Spirit, or caused by a true faith which leads to works, or however you want to put it.

God desires all people to come to a knowledge of the truth. All have rejected God as revealed to all in creation.

In His mercy, God has chosen some for salvation and through the power of God Holy Spirit, and the truth of Jesus Christ and Him crucified, God mak s it happen

Back to the OP…

Why do some people claim people are going to hell because of “slacking soul winners” and then spend an enormous amount of time on the BB starting threads to attack other believers?

I do realize that you are obsessed with attacking “Calvinism”, but , according to your philosophy, more people are going to hell because of “slacking soul einners”.

Why not live in a way that is consistent with what you claim to believe?

peace to you

I heard a preacher make an interesting comment one time, he said many of us can go to church and hear a sermon and think we need to witness to others but he said the best witness is not a talking sermon but a walking one... What did Apostle Paul say:

1 Corinthians 11:1 Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ.

 

[kyredneck]

the best witness is not a talking sermon but a walking one...

15 but sanctify in your hearts Christ as Lord: being ready always to give answer to every man that asketh you a reason concerning the hope that is in you, yet with meekness and fear: 1 Pe 3

 

[tyndale1946]

15 but sanctify in your hearts Christ as Lord: being ready always to give answer to every man that asketh you a reason concerning the hope that is in you, yet with meekness and fear: 1 Pe 3

That's a good one too... Brother Glen

 

[Van]

God desires all people to come to a knowledge of the truth. All have rejected God as revealed to all in creation. SNIP

That is news to God who has credited the faith o all the believers whose spirits are now in heaven.

 

[canadyjd]

That is news to God who has credited the faith o all the believers whose spirits are now in heaven.

No, it is not news to God. It is a scriptural truth you have not yet been able to comprehend.

Please answer the question of the OP.

Since you have stated more people are going to hell because of “slacking soul winners” why are you wasting so much time posting on the BB?

Why are you not living what you claim to believe?

Or…. Do you believe relentlessly attacking other Christians because you disagree with the doctrines of Grace is more important than “soul winning”?

peace to you

 

[Darrell C]

Before John wrote, Jesus explained it, as in Mark 10:15, Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein.
Nicodemus' question still applies, . . . How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
It is the same answer.
1 John 5:1, Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God.

The Lord explains how men can be born from above/born of the Spirit/born again, and this in response to Nicodemus' question:

John 3:9
9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?

John 3:14-15
14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:

15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

The Son of Man's lifting up, that is, His death in our stead—is the means of Regeneration.

The fact that God sent His Son that men might have everlasting life points out that prior to the Son of God being sent no man had everlasting life. Men were justified, but not regenerated. Regeneration requires the eternal indwelling of God, and this did not begin until Christ returned to Heaven:

John 14
16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.


This makes it clear that the disciples were not yet eternally indwelt. They knew (of) the Spirit, for He dwelt with them (and they rejected Him more often than not, Acts 7:51), but "in that day," He would be in them.

Christ's death was necessary for the redemption of our sins, and His resurrection necessary to provide for Eternal Life through God's eternal indwelling.


John 16:7-8
King James Version

7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

The eternal indwelling began when the Christ returned to Heaven and the Comforter, the Spirit of Truth was sent on the Day of Pentecost. Another indication of the disciples unregenerate state is seen here:

Acts 1:4-5
King James Version

4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.

5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.

While some view the Baptism with the Holy Ghost as a "second blessing," we can dismiss that as a valid position simply by acknowledging that God, many times, empowered Old Testament Saints. What He did not do is indwell them on an eternal basis, because their sins had not yet been redeemed by the death of Christ in the stead of the sinner. We see the disciples go from being a committee in a locked room tossing dice to make decisions to Gospel evangelists when they are born again through the coming of the Comforter.

This does not mean the Old Testament Saints were not "saved," it simply means they were saved according to the ministry of God in those Eras. Just as we are saved yet not glorified, even so they were saved but not yet regenerate.

One last passage that shows Eternal Redemption was accomplished by Christ and that the sins of the Old Testament Saints were redeemed by His death:

Hebrews 9:12-15
King James Version

12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:

14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

Going back to John 3, Nicodemus asks "How can these things be?" The answer should be simple for all of us on this side of the revelation of the Mystery of the Gospel of Christ: Only by the Sacrifice of Christ can we be reconciled to God and brought into an eternal union through the process of receiving His life when we are immersed (baptized) into Him.

God bless.