The best question…

[kyredneck]

So perhaps you will describe Christ's Return to those of us who were unfortunate enough to miss it? Was it really like the lightning?

He was not to come on a lightning bolt, nor on a cloud, nor on a white horse, the Son of Man is now, at this time, in His day, EVERYWHERE.

24 for as the lightning, when it lighteneth out of the one part under the heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall the Son of man be in his day. Lu 17

But thanks be unto God, who always leadeth us in triumph in Christ, and maketh manifest through us the savor of his knowledge in every place. 2 Cor 2:14

For the earth shall be filled with the knowledge of the glory of Jehovah, as the waters cover the sea. Hab 2:14

And he shall stand, and shall feed his flock in the strength of Jehovah, in the majesty of the name of Jehovah his God: and they shall abide; for now shall he be great unto the ends of the earth. Micah 5:4

So shall they fear the name of Jehovah from the west, and his glory from the rising of the sun; for he will come as a rushing stream, which the breath of Jehovah driveth. Isa 59:19

For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same my name shall be great among the Gentiles; and in every place incense shall be offered unto my name, and a pure offering: for my name shall be great among the Gentiles, saith Jehovah of hosts. Mal 1:11

Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass that, in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God. Hosea 1:10

And it shall come to pass in the latter days, that the mountain of Jehovah`s house shall be established on the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it. Isa 2:2

All the ends of the earth shall remember and turn unto Jehovah; And all the kindreds of the nations shall worship before thee. Ps 22:27

Jehovah will be terrible unto them; for he will famish all the gods of the earth; and men shall worship him, every one from his place, even all the isles of the nations. Zeph 2:11

And I say unto you, that many shall come from the east and the west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven: but the sons of the kingdom shall be cast forth into the outer darkness: there shall be the weeping and the gnashing of teeth. Mt 8.11-12

Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy king cometh unto thee; he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, even upon a colt the foal of an ass. And I will cut off the chariot from Ephraim, and the horse from Jerusalem; and the battle bow shall be cut off; and he shall speak peace unto the nations: and his dominion shall be from sea to sea, and from the River to the ends of the earth. Zech 9:9-10

1 Sing, O barren, thou that didst not bear; break forth into singing, and cry aloud, thou that didst not travail with child: for more are the children of the desolate than the children of the married wife, saith Jehovah.
2 Enlarge the place of thy tent, and let them stretch forth the curtains of thy habitations; spare not: lengthen thy cords, and strengthen thy stakes.
3 For thou shalt spread aboard on the right hand and on the left; and thy seed shall possess the nations, and make the desolate cities to be inhabited. Isa 54

And he shall send forth his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

After these things I saw, and behold, a great multitude, which no man could number, out of every nation and of all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, arrayed in white robes, and palms in their hands; Rev 7:9

At that time will I bring you in, and at that time will I gather you; for I will make you a name and a praise among all the peoples of the earth, when I bring back your captivity before your eyes, saith Jehovah. Zeph 3:11

They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain; for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of Jehovah, as the waters cover the sea. And it shall come to pass in that day, that the root of Jesse, that standeth for an ensign of the peoples, unto him shall the nations seek; and his resting-place shall be glorious. Isa 11:9-10

Christ's Return is the primary issue I would like you to explain. Revelation describes His Return on a white horse

I'd like for you to pinpoint the verse/passage in Revelation where Christ sets foot on terra firma.

 

[canadyjd]

Oh, you were born again in that year too?

What a coincidence!



I'm sorry to hear that you have left the teachings of Prophecy as found in the Bible. Be glad to discuss this from Scripture, but I hate to see you, like most, get frustrated, upset, and end up having to put me on ignore because you get lost in the subject.





What makes you think the Lord was speaking Greek?

Next argument ...



To be sure, lol.

I sure do miss some of the people that used to be here.



Could you explain to me how exactly your judgment of the Twelve Tribes is going?




Well—it isn't!

Luke 17:20-24
King James Version

20 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:

21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

22 And he said unto the disciples, The days will come, when ye shall desire to see one of the days of the Son of man, and ye shall not see it.

23 And they shall say to you, See here; or, see there: go not after them, nor follow them.

24 For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one part under heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in his day.


There, that's better.

So perhaps you will describe Christ's Return to those of us who were unfortunate enough to miss it? Was it really like the lightning?

And why is it that the Sheep and Goat Judgment didn't take place?

How is it that the deaths of all unbelievers didn't take place?

Clearly the Kingdom will have certain observable aspects when it comes, though the Kingdom itself does not. Christ's Return is the primary issue I would like you to explain. Revelation describes His Return on a white horse, and death unimaginable for unbelievers.

Was John speaking in error?


God bless.

John wrote, in Revelations, as an apocalyptic allegory. It was not meant to be taken literally.

peace to you

 

[Darrell C]

He was not to come on a lightning bolt, nor on a cloud, nor on a white horse, the Son of Man is now, at this time, in His day, EVERYWHERE.

24 for as the lightning, when it lighteneth out of the one part under the heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall the Son of man be in his day. Lu 17

But thanks be unto God, who always leadeth us in triumph in Christ, and maketh manifest through us the savor of his knowledge in every place. 2 Cor 2:14

For the earth shall be filled with the knowledge of the glory of Jehovah, as the waters cover the sea. Hab 2:14

And he shall stand, and shall feed his flock in the strength of Jehovah, in the majesty of the name of Jehovah his God: and they shall abide; for now shall he be great unto the ends of the earth. Micah 5:4

So shall they fear the name of Jehovah from the west, and his glory from the rising of the sun; for he will come as a rushing stream, which the breath of Jehovah driveth. Isa 59:19

For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same my name shall be great among the Gentiles; and in every place incense shall be offered unto my name, and a pure offering: for my name shall be great among the Gentiles, saith Jehovah of hosts. Mal 1:11

Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass that, in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God. Hosea 1:10

And it shall come to pass in the latter days, that the mountain of Jehovah`s house shall be established on the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it. Isa 2:2

All the ends of the earth shall remember and turn unto Jehovah; And all the kindreds of the nations shall worship before thee. Ps 22:27

Jehovah will be terrible unto them; for he will famish all the gods of the earth; and men shall worship him, every one from his place, even all the isles of the nations. Zeph 2:11

And I say unto you, that many shall come from the east and the west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven: but the sons of the kingdom shall be cast forth into the outer darkness: there shall be the weeping and the gnashing of teeth. Mt 8.11-12

Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy king cometh unto thee; he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, even upon a colt the foal of an ass. And I will cut off the chariot from Ephraim, and the horse from Jerusalem; and the battle bow shall be cut off; and he shall speak peace unto the nations: and his dominion shall be from sea to sea, and from the River to the ends of the earth. Zech 9:9-10

1 Sing, O barren, thou that didst not bear; break forth into singing, and cry aloud, thou that didst not travail with child: for more are the children of the desolate than the children of the married wife, saith Jehovah.
2 Enlarge the place of thy tent, and let them stretch forth the curtains of thy habitations; spare not: lengthen thy cords, and strengthen thy stakes.
3 For thou shalt spread aboard on the right hand and on the left; and thy seed shall possess the nations, and make the desolate cities to be inhabited. Isa 54

And he shall send forth his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

After these things I saw, and behold, a great multitude, which no man could number, out of every nation and of all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, arrayed in white robes, and palms in their hands; Rev 7:9

At that time will I bring you in, and at that time will I gather you; for I will make you a name and a praise among all the peoples of the earth, when I bring back your captivity before your eyes, saith Jehovah. Zeph 3:11

They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain; for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of Jehovah, as the waters cover the sea. And it shall come to pass in that day, that the root of Jesse, that standeth for an ensign of the peoples, unto him shall the nations seek; and his resting-place shall be glorious. Isa 11:9-10



I'd like for you to pinpoint the verse/passage in Revelation where Christ sets foot on terra firma.

Because you do not approach the issue based on the whole of Scripture, you're able to satisfy yourself that your position is sound. Indications of His physical Return are seen often in Prophecy. You have to set conditions for your position to sound reasonable. If it isn't in Revelation—it doesn't happen?

Zechariah 14
King James Version

1 Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.

2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

3 Then shall the Lord go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.

4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

Do you discount this passage of Scripture?

Or this one ...

Acts 1

9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.

10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;

11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.


A statement from Revelation? Sure ...

Revelation 19

15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.


Does the Lord smite the nations in Heaven? Does He call them up into the clouds, as He will the Church?

Where exactly will He rule the nations, and if it be in Heaven or the heavens—what need is there of a rod of iron? Is that the economy you see in the Eternal State?

Again, I ask you, are we, or anyone—judging the Twelve Tribes of Israel? Will that take place in the Eternal State, or even in the "golden state" some perceive the Kingdom of God to be?

If you would just answer some of these questions, even to yourself, you will see the necessity to include the whole of Scripture in your conclusions. Embracing a system that relies on negating Scripture will inevitably be rampant with holes.


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

John wrote, in Revelations, as an apocalyptic allegory. It was not meant to be taken literally.

peace to you

And I have sympathy for everyone that has taken that position.

It is ironic that the Reformation began as a step away from Catholicism, and today, in many ways, it is very hard to tell the difference between certain Reformed groups (and their positions) from Catholicism.

So tell me, do you also view the Prophecy of Christ as an allegory?

And explain to me why the Lord would be literal and specific in the Old Testament, then suddenly change up to allegory in the New?

This view will inevitably leave those that embrace it as continual failures in matters of conveying the truths of Scripture. Because they have embraced a view that they can impose an interpretive system that is both foreign and alien to the Word of God, they will without question dispense error to those that they seek to teach.

Show me allegory in the Old Testament, then perhaps you can convince me that it is found in the New. We find figurative language in the Old Testament used to describe Biblical truths. We see the same method of revelation in Revelation.


God bless.

 

[kyredneck]

Because you do not approach the issue based on the whole of Scripture

You Sensationalists commit that error in a huge way by pretending that scores of time limits concerning the 'presence' of Christ don't exist in the NT scriptures.

'The time is at hand', 'the kingdom is at hand', 'must shortly come to pass', 'I come quickly', 'some of you standing here will not die until', 'this generation will not pass away until', etc.. You Sensationalists unabashedly force this phraselogy to mean 'thousands of years and still waiting'.

No, don't feel sorry for me getting away from the sensationalism of dispy fiction and fairy tales and the violence you do to scripture.

 

[canadyjd]

And I have sympathy for everyone that has taken that position.

It is ironic that the Reformation began as a step away from Catholicism, and today, in many ways, it is very hard to tell the difference between certain Reformed groups (and their positions) from Catholicism.

So tell me, do you also view the Prophecy of Christ as an allegory?

And explain to me why the Lord would be literal and specific in the Old Testament, then suddenly change up to allegory in the New?

This view will inevitably leave those that embrace it as continual failures in matters of conveying the truths of Scripture. Because they have embraced a view that they can impose an interpretive system that is both foreign and alien to the Word of God, they will without question dispense error to those that they seek to teach.

Show me allegory in the Old Testament, then perhaps you can convince me that it is found in the New. We find figurative language in the Old Testament used to describe Biblical truths. We see the same method of revelation in Revelation.

God bless.

I guess I’m not quite as learned as you. What is the main difference between “figurative” language and “allegory”?

If I told you the Apocolyptic language of Revelation was not to be taken literally, but figuratively, would that reduce the amount of sympathy you have for my views?

peace to you

 

[Alan Gross]

If a person really believes many folks won’t get to heaven
if believers aren’t “soul winning”, why do they spend all their time
on the BB attacking reformed theology?

I give up, why?

Why not spend all that time and effort “soul winning”?

Why not?
...

Do you think The Lord will Come Back, today?

 

[37818]

'some of you standing here will not die until',

Jesus was speaking of His transfiguration, Matthew 16:28 - Matthew 17:1-9. And Mark 9:1-9. And Luke 9:27-36. (Revelation 11:4.)

 

[canadyjd]

I give up, why?

Why not?
...
Do you think The Lord will Come Back, today?

You have to ask those that believe more people go to hell because of “slacking soul winners” and then prove themselves to be “slacking soul winners” by spending an enormous amount of time attacking other Christians on the BB because they disagree with there biblical views.

I don’t pretend to know when the Lord Jesus will return. We are instructed to live our lives as if He could come back before I finish this post.

peace to you

 

[37818]

Leviticus 19:18, . . . thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: . . .

One to tell one's neighbour that one can know one can have eternal life from God. Sharing 1 John 5:9-13.

 

[kyredneck]

Jesus was speaking of His transfiguration

'Some of you will still be alive 6 days from now'; right.

 

[37818]

'Some of you will still be alive 6 days from now'; right.

8 days if one counts the day Jesus said it and the day of Jesus' transfiguration. Luke 9:27-36.

 

[kyredneck]

8 days if one counts the day Jesus said it and the day of Jesus' transfiguration. Luke 9:27-36.

Egad.

'Some of you will still be alive 8 days from now'; right.

Jehovah in the flesh, creator of the universe, makes that astounding prediction. Wow.

 

[Alan Gross]

'The time is at hand'

The Time is at hand for the inguralization of Jesus' Earthly Ministry
and The Kingdom of God, right?

'the kingdom is at hand'

Thus, Jesus mentions "the kingdom" is at hand, here.
...

'must shortly come to pass'

The events depicted by John in Revelation
began to take place once he wrote them.

'I come quickly'

The Imminent Return of Jesus Christ may happen at any second,
to Consumate the Entire New Testament Church Age.

"And, behold, I come quickly; and My reward is with Me,
to give every man according as his work shall be."
Revelation 22:12.

I don’t pretend to know when the Lord Jesus will return.
We are instructed to live our lives
as if He could come back before I finish this post.

AAAAMMMMEEENNNNNNN!!!!!!

New thread (something about '1,000');
Jesus 'signified' & made known by Symbols & Figures
the Truths within The revelation of Revelation.

 

[tyndale1946]

The Time is at hand for the inguralization of Jesus' Earthly Ministry
and The Kingdom of God, right?

Thus, Jesus mentions "the kingdom" is at hand, here.
...
The events depicted by John in Revelation
began to take place once he wrote them.

The Imminent Return of Jesus Christ may happen at any second,
to Consumate the Entire New Testament Church Age.

"And, behold, I come quickly; and My reward is with Me,
to give every man according as his work shall be."
Revelation 22:12.

AAAAMMMMEEENNNNNNN!!!!!!

New thread (something about '1,000');
Jesus 'signified' & made known by Symbols & Figures the Truths within The revelation of Revelation.

Luke 17:20 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:

21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

Brother Glen

 

[kyredneck]

21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence. Jn 18

17 for the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit. Ro 14

20 And being asked by the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God cometh, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:
21 neither shall they say, Lo, here! or, There! for lo, the kingdom of God is within you. Lu 17

18 For ye are not come unto a mount that might be touched, and that burned with fire, and unto blackness, and darkness, and tempest, Heb 12

3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, except anyone be born from above, he is not able to see the kingdom of God." [SEE]
5 Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. Jn 3

 

[Darrell C]

You Sensationalists commit that error in a huge way by pretending that scores of time limits concerning the 'presence' of Christ don't exist in the NT scriptures.

Not sure when interpreting Scripture as it has always been interpreted became "sensationalism."

As far as limits, again, it is not until the whole of Scripture is presented and utilized in interpretation that correct conclusions can be drawn.

You are confusing Christ's "Return" as spoken of here ...

John 14:16-18
King James Version

16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

... (which is a spiritual return to indwell believers) with His physical Return which is demanded by Prophecy. You asked when His feet will touch the ground, I supplied the Prophecy:

Zechariah 14
King James Version

1 Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.

2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

3 Then shall the Lord go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.

4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

This did not take place in the First Century, but will take place when He returns as Revelation tells us.

'The time is at hand', 'the kingdom is at hand', 'must shortly come to pass', 'I come quickly', 'some of you standing here will not die until', 'this generation will not pass away until', etc.. You Sensationalists unabashedly force this phraselogy to mean 'thousands of years and still waiting'.

Actually, no man knows the length of time before His physical Return. But, just as you impose a near fulfillment to the phrases above, you seek to define what your antagonists actually believe. And just as you erred in your interpretation of Scripture, you err in interpreting your antagonists' beliefs.

The time certainly was at hand for the Kingdom not revealed in the Old Testament to be unveiled. This is the Kingdom we join when we are reconciled to God.

"Must come to pass shortly:"

Revelation 1
King James Version

1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

First, note that it is "things" that will come to pass "Shortly," not the Return of Christ. His physical Return follows a time of seven years (the length of the Tribulation). Also take note that a thousand year period is provided in the Revelation: this suggests it is the speed of the events taking place, rather than when they begin.

Consider another example of tachos in a passage (with a similar context):

Luk 18:7
And shall not God avenge his own elect, which cry day and night unto him, though he bear long with them?

Luk 18:8

I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?

Not only does this statement correlate to judgment, but as in Revelation, it does not specify when the judgment/s will take place.

This view allows me to forego the error of trying to make Scripture fit a scenario that simply doesn't align with the Prophecy of Scripture.

So what is it I am ignoring again? How am I pretending something?

Rev 3:11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.

"Behold, I come quickly ... stand fast."

Note that we are told to hold fast to that which we have. Not only does this does not suggest an immediate fulfillment of His coming, but implies there will be a waiting period.

Matthew 24

33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

This one is by far one of the easiest: "this generation" follows the description of the Tribulation. Hence, the generation in view is the generation that undergoes the tribulation Christ describes.

The Abomination of Desolation described in Daniel, and spoken of by Christ cannot be seen fulfilled in the First Century for a number of reasons, but the primary reason would be that the physical Return of Christ did not take place in the First Century. We may see a partial fulfillment, just as the Prophecy of the Christ was partially fulfilled during Christ's earthly ministry—but we haven't seen it fulfilled in its entirety.

But I can understand why people would embrace such a view: it's easy. Sadly, it doesn't meet the standard for prophecy fulfillment.

No, don't feel sorry for me getting away from the sensationalism of dispy fiction and fairy tales and the violence you do to scripture.

It also makes me sad that there are those that have sat on a board for so long and yet have learned next to nothing in all of that time.

To deny that Scripture presents a dispensational view is absurd.

Do you believe men are still under the Law? Do you believe the Covenant of Law is yet to be established? You would have to to reject the differing ministries of God throughout the Ages.

Are we still in the Garden? Do we still await the coming of Christ to establish the Kingdom we are brought into when we are saved?

Has the Church been caught up into the clouds?

Believe Scripture, forsake the systems of men.


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

I guess I’m not quite as learned as you. What is the main difference between “figurative” language and “allegory”?

That's a tough question, but I'll try to answer it as best I can.

While allegory can be viewed as "figurative language," there is a difference between the simplicity found in, for example, metaphor as opposed to allegory. Satan is called an ancient serpent, yet unlike the characters of "Pilgrim's Progress," Satan is a real entity. The Lord's hair is "white like wool," which is descriptive of literal elements: there is a Jesus Christ, He does have hair, and the color is said to be white. Wounds seen in Revelation describe what is meant to be a literal event. How they are inflicted and what it feels like may be figurative, but we still embrace the teaching that at some point, unbelievers will suffer these wounds.

If one chooses to place Revelation into the category of allegory, then they must also place all Prophecy into that category. To pick and choose what Prophecy is allegory and what is not lacks consistency and is the reason why we have people like Koresh and Jones.

For example, do you find the Prophecy of Isaiah to be allegory? If not, why not? Does that Prophecy simply speak of a battle between good and evil? Or a continuation of the Prophecy of Messiah and events that will take place?

Christ is called a root, a branch, a door, and each example of metaphor represents a biblical truth about a literal Person. In the teaching of the Rich Man and Lazarus, it is my belief these were two real people who actually died. We see it takes place under the Law, for it is the Law and the Prophets appealed to that is the means for the Rich Man's brothers' escape from torment.

That is how Prophecy has always been given and fulfilled. The literary devices are not made-up characters, real persons and events are in view. It is not to simply to teach a lesson they are given, but to foretell events that have not happened but will.

If I told you the Apocolyptic language of Revelation was not to be taken literally, but figuratively, would that reduce the amount of sympathy you have for my views?

Not in the least.

Do you really not believe that Christ will, as Prophecy throughout Scripture teaches—physically return? If you do, how will that happen?

Probably one point that stands out in this debate would be whether the thousand years in Revelation 20 is literal or not. Let me ask you this: is the forty-two months described here ...

Revelation 13:5
And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

... literal or figurative?

peace to you

And to you.


God bless.

 

[canadyjd]

That's a tough question, but I'll try to answer it as best I can.

While allegory can be viewed as "figurative language," there is a difference between the simplicity found in, for example, metaphor as opposed to allegory. Satan is called an ancient serpent, yet unlike the characters of "Pilgrim's Progress," Satan is a real entity. The Lord's hair is "white like wool," which is descriptive of literal elements: there is a Jesus Christ, He does have hair, and the color is said to be white. Wounds seen in Revelation describe what is meant to be a literal event. How they are inflicted and what it feels like may be figurative, but we still embrace the teaching that at some point, unbelievers will suffer these wounds.

If one chooses to place Revelation into the category of allegory, then they must also place all Prophecy into that category. To pick and choose what Prophecy is allegory and what is not lacks consistency and is the reason why we have people like Koresh and Jones.

For example, do you find the Prophecy of Isaiah to be allegory? If not, why not? Does that Prophecy simply speak of a battle between good and evil? Or a continuation of the Prophecy of Messiah and events that will take place?

Christ is called a root, a branch, a door, and each example of metaphor represents a biblical truth about a literal Person. In the teaching of the Rich Man and Lazarus, it is my belief these were two real people who actually died. We see it takes place under the Law, for it is the Law and the Prophets appealed to that is the means for the Rich Man's brothers' escape from torment.

That is how Prophecy has always been given and fulfilled. The literary devices are not made-up characters, real persons and events are in view. It is not to simply to teach a lesson they are given, but to foretell events that have not happened but will.



Not in the least.

Do you really not believe that Christ will, as Prophecy throughout Scripture teaches—physically return? If you do, how will that happen?

Probably one point that stands out in this debate would be whether the thousand years in Revelation 20 is literal or not. Let me ask you this: is the forty-two months described here ...

Revelation 13:5
And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

... literal or figurative?




And to you.


God bless.

You are simply incorrect to say if one views aspects of Revelation as allegory, then all prophecy must be viewed as allegory.

The prophecy concerning the suffering servant in Isaiah is literal and fulfilled in Christ.

The prophecy concerning the great dragon, the whore and many other prophecies in Revelation are allegory, or if you prefer, figurative.

peace to you

 

[Darrell C]

You are simply incorrect to say if one views aspects of Revelation as allegory, then all prophecy must be viewed as allegory.

If you say so. You are free to use an inconsistent interpretive system if you like. But I don't see an address of the points I made. Why not?

The prophecy concerning the suffering servant in Isaiah is literal and fulfilled in Christ.

So in the Old Testament God did something one way ...

The prophecy concerning the great dragon, the whore and many other prophecies in Revelation are allegory.

So there is no Satan. Okay. That's good news.

So what's the point of the allegory? And why do you call these allegories prophecy, lol. Make up your mind, are they allegory, or prophecy?

If you change your mind, and decide they are prophecy, when will they be fulfilled?

See the problem?

I would direct you back to Revelation's beginning, and the fact that what is revealed is said to take place at a future time. But according to God—they are going to happen. The problem for the amillenialist and the preterist (or the idealist) is that they simply can't provide any time in history when, like the prophecy of Isaiah, these things have been fulfilled, or a valid reason why they will not be.

So again I will ask:

Probably one point that stands out in this debate would be whether the thousand years in Revelation 20 is literal or not. Let me ask you this: is the forty-two months described here ...

Revelation 13:5
And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

... literal or figurative?

You are the one saying, after all, that Revelation is not to be taken literally.

I guess we can place Revelation 21 and 22 in the allegory file?

peace to you

And to you,


God bless.