The Best Wine

What proof do you have that Jesus would have never created fermented wine other than rhetoric? Are you saying that Jesus could not have done such a thing but God does regularly?

Where would you propose that one buy unfermented wine to celebrate the Lord's Supper? Perhaps you should check the internet to see if it is even possible.

Fermented wine can be used to cleanse and purify too. It was used by Timothy for his stomach ailments. Was God wrong when he inspired Paul to write such a command?

Considering the weather and climate in that part of the world, could you give me one idea of how one would have kept or even made wine in an alcohol free state without pasteurization or refrigeration? Even in a refrigerator grape juice would get moldy in a short time. Why do you think the Bible says not to put new wine in old wineskins? Is the Bible wrong and inaccurate in what it says about how to store wine. How would it even be possible to get drunk on alcohol free wine. Is that one of those ideas parallel to transubstantiation?

Where did you get such information?

 

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Excellent point.

When Jesus spoke that he was talking about the effect Christians would have on the world. Christians may be small in number but have huge affect. That kind of leaven is good. Leaven makes the bread rise. It only takes a small amount to raise a loaf of bread. Its effect is so great with so little amount. The leaven permeates the entire loaf of bread. So will godly Christians permeate the world in which they live.

 

SWL, out here it is perscribed by doctors. Used properly, it is safer than many manufactured medications. Some of the manufactured medications produce the same effects as marijuana. Does that make the natural drug or the synthetic drug wrong? Or both?

I wouldn't advocate its use without a perscription since it is illegal, but please don't overlook herbal methods of healing for the sick or mock them. They're often much safer, less addictive, and less harmful than modern pharmaceuticals.

Cocaine, btw, is also a substance that can be used medicinally in different forms, from an anesthetic administered during eye surgery and in gel form as an oral anesthetic. (and tea form for other issues)
Now if you're using cocaine for those types of things, this is just fine. (and now they make synthetic cocaine that has taken over a lot of the historical uses of it medicinally...so is that wrong too?)
If you're sniffing it up your nose or smoking it for fun, you've got a serious problem.
If the cure is more harmful to your body than the reason you're using it, that's just dumb.

There are probably a ton of people on this board who protest both alcohol and cocaine that unknowingly have used some derivitive of both. If one has eaten baked goods or had a milkshake, they've probably ingested trace amounts of alcohol because it's used as a base in flavorings. (take a whiff of vanilla) With hospital injections or anesthetics or at the dentist they probably at some point put cocaine into their bodies.

I find it silly to object to the moderate use of most anything. God created things for our benefit.

It's our problem and sin if we abuse them. To knock something because it has the potential to be harmful (hey, a knife is harmful if misused too!) just isn't wise.

 

Wow! I guess the Pharisees didn't die out!

IMHO it is common but I am not the Pharisee with crazy whacko legalistic standards such as you...the Holy Spirit does help and it is soooooo easy
when you mix it with common sense. I would just not invite you to a wedding with wine and would not have you over for the game for a beer and chips....in so doing would do my best not to make you stumble or offend you...but you are overwhelmingly on the wrong side of the debate
and it gets weaker and weaker as history and common sense with help from God prevails over the Pharisee...Amen.





My orginal post again Imho ..
Where throughout history do you find grape tasters or connoisseurs of grape juice non fermented...none...nada...zero...zilch but throughout history even till today you have wine connoisseurs and wine tasting to press out the quality and give out awards....the best wine ever made was at the wedding of Cana, if that wine was here today it would win every award known to wine.


And such was the case at the wedding of Cana those who knew wine
and in charge of the wedding feast and drink ...were well aware of quality and they were amazed at how the best was saved for last and how great af quality it was.

Thank you Holy Spirit for helping me and the common sense of it all

sincerely
Aslanspal

 

SWL, your post is a bit of why these conversations get so insane and unfocused!

Someone says a little wine is ok, and people say they're calling it ok to be drunks.

Someone says an herbal type of medication is ok for an herbal type of medication, and people claim they're saying we could go get stoned for fun.

Man takes what God created and abuses it and makes bad uses out of them, mocking the good.

Now on threads like this, Christians are taking what God created for good, denying it, and mocking the good.

I have a problem with that. It doesn't seem to be at all a good, wise, or Christian way of coming at our world.

Everything we have was created by God and is good in some form. It is Satan's desire to corrupt it, man's sinfulness to desire wrong uses of what we've been gifted with.

Please don't play along and call good evil because Satan can corrupt it. There's not much Satan and his angels and sinful man can't corrupt!

Logic says that if marijuana is wrong, so is aspirin.

If coca is wrong, so is morphine.

On and on.

Let's be thankful for what we have instead of constantly looking at the ways in which they can be abused...otherwise we'd have practically nothing to be thankful for.

 

Gina

When you are in a debate and you have no good argument to back up your position you have to use extream retoric to insult you opponent and mis-reprisent your opponents views.

Of course she wants to turn a debate over if a glass of wine is ok into a debate about if smoking crack cocain for fun is ok. Then she will have a leg to stand on in the debate.

 

That is exactly the point that SWL was making, and you can't see. Marijuana does have good purposes. God created it--not to be smoked. It makes good hemp. One can make rope out of the product. Apparently there may be a number of uses for it, other than smoking it. Tragically it's number one use is recreational smoking and then so-called medicinal which is alternative and not necessary. It has been lobbied by a small minority to be considered as a medicinal drug, by those who cannot live without it. And just like those homosexuals who demanded that their marriages be legitimized, they won, and it is now considered a bonafied medicinal drug that can be prescribed by a doctor in Canada.
Of course the problem is who has the authority to grow it, for possession of marijuana is illegal. Our government has passed the most ridiculous laws. Isn't odd that maijuana has never been medicinal until the last ten years?

So both Lot and Noah took that which was good and made it for bad uses. You can do that with many things, as you yourself pointed out. The most common one is alcohol which was once banned during the Prohibition Era. It still is banned in countries like Pakistan. I guess they are just smarter than we are. They knew back then, and Pakistanis know now, the evils of alcohol.
DHK

 

Soul Winning Lady:

I agree, sister!

This is also why my wife and I avoid all pleasure during the marriage act. The marriage act is pornographic. And God hates sin and pornography! And we always do it with the lights out. Actually, we do that for my sake, since my wife gouged out her eyes out last year because she looked at me one too many times. Better to do that then sin and lose one's soul.

Keep the faith!

 

ROTFLOL -- I hope at least a few others enjoy the humor there.

 

Personal insults are not tolerated on BB.
You are in need of some serious Bible study. There is a difference between legalism and walking a life that is holy unto the Lord. Because I desrie holiness in my life does not make me legalistic. There is a big difference. You need to study those conceptis out. BTW, the person who has nothing better to do than insult his opponent has only proven to everyone else that he has lost the debate.

I am not a Jew, neither a Pharisee, neither legalistic--more personal attacks. Your debate is going quite well for you isn't it?
I have been to weddings (a number of them) where alcoholic beverages were served. My extended family are Catholic and not saved. Theyare all social drinikers, so-called. In every case I have had to leave shortly after the ceremony or early into the reception just after the cake is cut. From then on in these social drinkers let the wine flow freely. These social drinkers end up calling cabs to drive them home because they can't drive their own cars safely. Oh no! They are not drunk, and never have been. They insist on that fact. They insist that they are only social drinkers. With the consumption of alcohol, comes the increasingly loudness of music--more alcohol--louder music--more noise--a more raucous time. Say this is a great testimony for a Christian isn't it!!
Don't worry you don't have to play God, and judge me. I have been to a number of weddings that serve alcohol, and have seen the devastating effects. I have seen the good examples set by parents for their children. I have seen the type of language that is used that otherwise would not be used. I have seen it all. The barriers all come down with the consumption of alcohol. But, remember, these are people that don't get drunk. They may get a bit tipsy. But they don't get drunk. Yea, tell me about it!
Tell me about your Holy Spirit that leads you into such situations.

As I warned you last time--don't post what you are ignorant of. The fact is that you are wrong. Dead wrong.
But tell me first does knowledge or the lack of it come from the the Holy Spirit?
Does a google search come from the Holy Spirit? Does the Holy Spirit lead you into ignorance?
Frist realize that most varieties of wines come from Europe.
Secondly, only certain wines can be grown in America primarily because of climactic conditions.
Thirdly, wines are not just made from grapes. They can be made from peaches, apricots, and almost any kind of fruit.
That being the case the source of the wine must be tested. It is tested for its quality, its taste, its comparison to other wines.
Just as the settlers came to Canada and found that they could not grow the wheat they brought from Europe, they had to develop a more hardy wheat by cross breeding. Wheats had to be tested if not even tasted. The same holds true for wines. Notice I said wheat, not bread, cereal, and all the products of wheat. And so it is with the wines. It is the source that has to be tested first. Not the end product. If the source of the product is no good then the product will be no good either. A bad tree will bear bad fruit--a concept that Jesus taught. Fruit is tested, not just the product: juices and wines. You have been wrong. Did the Holy Spirit lead you to be wrong? It would be good for you not to be so arrogant and attribut everything you say in a debate to the the Holy Spirit. It is the height of blasphemy.

The best grape juice was made at Cana. You have no proof that it was fermented wine. It is your personal bias. It was the best because it was created and not made. It was created by the Creator. Why should it not taste better than any wine or juice.

It doesn't matter what sinful man knew. What most did not know was that they were drinking a beverage that was the direct creation of the God the Creator himself. No wonder it tasted so good to them. Search the Scriptures.

You will do well to leave the Holy Spirit out of it lest you sin yet more.
DHK

 

I have given you my proof. Leaven throughout the Bible is a symbol of sin, corruption and false doctrine. In previous posts I have quoted plenty of Scripture to prove this point. I can repeat this if you like.

God creates many things on a regular basis that man mis-uses or abuses. So what?
He has created hemp, but not to smoke; likewise the tobacco plant.
He has created the poppy plant, but man misuses that.
He has created man and women, and when he first did they were naked, and unashamed. Sin has made that different now.
I could go on and give you dozens of other examples, but is it necessary. Man has a depraved nature and abuses that which God has created for good purposes. Are you in the business of blaming God for man's sin?

Use any grape juice. Use Welch's grape juice. It is non-alcoholic. As I explained before, the Jews were not molecular scientists, but the social drinkers of today will use any excuse to justify their drinking. It is the picture that they looked at, not the atoms and molecules. Good grief!

So can purified water, yogurt, and a multitude of other things. Why are you stuck on alcoholic beverages, which almost any doctor will advise you to stay away from you. The first thing they ask you when you get a medical is: Do you smoke; Do you drink? They are two greatest causes of bad health.

Again, a modern myth to justify man's drinking, and an insult to the Jew's intelligence. The nation of Israel were not an nation of barbarians and cavemem as the liberals on this board like to portray them. The word "can't" is thrown around a lot here. Yes, grape juice "could" and "was" preserved because they did have the intelligence and know how, in spite of the lack of Bible study of those here, on how to preserve grape juice. Please don't give me the line any more that they couldn't do it. They weren't dumb and stupid. They don't need to be insulted. Instead of assuming that it can't be done, look it up in "Bibe Wines and Customs" and see how it was done. Or use some other reputable source. Don't assume.

That is my question to you.
DHK

 

So both Lot and Noah took that which was good and made it for bad uses. You can do that with many things, as you yourself pointed out. The most common one is alcohol which was once banned during the Prohibition Era. It still is banned in countries like Pakistan. I guess they are just smarter than we are. They knew back then, and Pakistanis know now, the evils of alcohol.
DHK[/quote]


DHK my goodness you just showed your true colors of the Pharisee by putting your lot in with the Taliban and Muslim Pharisees....thanx for falling into it and how God can reveal truth by someones arrogance.
so hold on to your ridiculous position it is really someone spitting into the wind but I am sure you can control a few people with it and some family members ...thank goodness you do not make policy and control a denomination or we would be deserving the name Taliban over here.


Now back to the Wedding of Cana

Kool and the Gang : Celebrate good times come on!

http://bsbu-network.com/Music/CelebrateGoodTimes.rm

For you DHK perhaps you can step out of that molasses and get on the good foot ...dance and sing and have a glass of champagne at a modern day Wedding of Cana if you want too but if you don't that is fine but one thing is for sure ...people can celebrate at weddings...responsibly ...but still celebrate.


brought to you by the Help of the Holy Spirt who is an immediate help on such matters...Thank You God. Must give credit where credit is due. :love2: :thumbs:

 

I get the feeling you dont even read others posts. It has been shown to you that

One well fermented wine has no leaven, fresh grape juice does.

Two Leaven is not always a symbol of sin, as Jesus uses it to symbolise His kingdom of Heaven.

It would help your argument, if you knew what you were talking about.

 

Wine may not have the remnants of yeast in when a person drinks it, but it had to have a yeast in it in order to become fermented.
The grapes may have some yeast on its skin, but this yeast has not caused any fermentation just as yeast in leavened bread causes the bread to rise. In other words: what is the result? It was the picture that the Jews looked. The leaven caused leavened bread, a picture of sin. The leaven (in the grapes) causes the fermentation, a picture of sin. Again, the Jews were not molecular scientists. They owned vineyards. They could produced either wne or grape juice. Most of the time it was grape juice. Do your homework.

We've been through this one before. Parables are illustrations to illustrate a truth that has already been previosly taught. By teaching that leaven does not symbolize sin you are entering into the Bible new "truth" from a parable, something that the cults do. New doctrine never comes from parables. The yeast in the parable represents yeast and nothing else. The broom in the parable of the lost coin rerpresents a broom and nothing else. If you make it represent anything else other than a broom or in this case yeast you are introducing new doctrine which is bad heremeneutics and wrong. It follows the pattern of all cults.
Consistently leaven symbolizes sin, corruption, false doctrine.

I do. Do you?
DHK

 

Grape skin has more then some yeast on it. It has all the yeast it needs to ferment the grape. The reason yeast is used as the symbol it because of its amazing ablity to reproduce so fast. If you look at the reproduction rate you see why it a little leaven leavens the whole lump.

It is not the fermentation that is the symbol, it is the leaven (yeast) itself. Leavend bread is not fermented. The yeast causes the bread to rise not ferment. Yogrut is not fermented the leaven causes the dairy to produce emzimes. Leaven causes dairy to curdel for cottage cheese, it causes acid in viniger.

It is not the fermentation that is forbiden during the passover. It is the leaven itself. Because the leaven is the symbol, not the fermentation.

So here is my point. If grape skins contain leaven, like you acknolage

Then what did Jesus drink during the last supper?

 

And in thus doing you condemn all the great preachers of days gone by: Peter Cartwright, Billy Sunday, most of the Methodist, and Baptist preachers of that that era. They were just all wrong weren't they. They never knew the Holy Spirit did they? At least they didn't accomodate themselves to the ways of the world. They stood against sin.

How about showing your own ignorance of geography and religion There are no Taliban in Pakistan. The Taliban are in Afghanistan. They are a people of a political stripe, that are indigenous to Afghanistan, not Pakistan. Furthermore, they are Muslims. It is Islam that does not drink alcohol, and Islamic nations that ban alcohol. So your false accusations, your arrogance, have again showed that you have nothing to debate but only to call names. If you don't have anything to say, it is better to say nothing at all. I hope you learn that.

These remarks are truly not necessary in any debate. They should be deleted. I hope another moderator sees them. I will leave them in for now. It shows your lack of debating skills.

This is needless harassment, name-calling, and a poor Christian testimony. It is not worth an answer.

Do you mean that the Holy Spirit led you to a post full of demeanig name-calling?
DHK

 

Perhaps it contained no yeast. I am not convinced yet.

http://www.ohiosbdc-ysu.com/Location/Guide/Oscar_Mayer/Wrigley/Welch_s/welch_s.html

 

I have seen several posts that have degraded into insults, on both sides of the issue.

I would like to call for a return to the issues with out the insults.

I would also like to apoligise to DHK for

Here are some examples of others

You get the idea. Lets just debate the topic without the retoric. (myself included)

 

He pasturized the grape juice.

Pasteurization was invented in 1862. Coincedently Welch "discovered" how to pasturize grape juice only 7 years later.

A couple points. If pasturization was known to the jews in the time of Christ why did Louis Pasteur get credit for inventing the process and why did Welch have to experiment. Are you saying that the technic was lost to history and rediscovered. Even with all the writings from that time period.

Show me some evidence that jews knew how to pasturize anything.