The Best Wine

Whatever it was it had to contain no yeast. At least on that you have to conceade.

6 Seven days you shall eat unleavened bread, and on the seventh day there shall be a feast to the LORD. 7 Unleavened bread shall be eaten seven days. And no leavened bread shall be seen among you, nor shall leaven be seen among you in all your quarters.
Exodus 13:6-7

 

We should definitely get rid of all things that are used for evil. The Word say to avoid even just the appearence and potential of evil!

I have often tried to get rid of marriage and the marriage act altogether. People sin with women all the time, terribly so. The marriage act can particularly lead to deadly outcomes, since the act is so pornographic and has to be. One, it requires at least partial nudity (though, praise God, not complete nudity). Two, it can be pleasurable if proper measures are not taken. That pleasure can easily lead to addiction to the good feeling, and it does all the time according to experts.

This is also why I do not understand why Christians are so often against in-vitro fertilization. It makes no sense to be. I mean, if we fertilized one special person for life, kind of like how vets fertilize animals, we could avoid so much trouble from even beginning. Night-time collectors work well, too, so pressurized men don't have to help themselves in order to get that stuff they need for the procedure.

So, yes, we should avoid even just the appearence and potential of all evil! If something has even the potential to be used for evil, it is sin to not avoid it like the plaque it indeed is.

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Are these statements inconsistent or am I missing something?

 

Yes, here is what you are missing:

http://www.breadworldcanada.com/sciencehistory/science.asp
It is called a science lesson. Jesus was describing what yeast does, and it was in the middle of a parable. Parables are used to illustrate doctrine, not teach doctrine.
Outside of this parable yeast cosistently is symbolic of sin and corruption. Don't take a parable and try to teach otherwise.
DHK
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Mk. 4:11, 12 tell swhy Jesus spoke in parables. "And He was saying to them, "To you has been given the mystery of the kingdom of God, but those who are outside get everything in parables, so that while seeing, they may see and not perceive, and while hearing, they may hear and not understand, otherwise they might return and be forgiven."

 

It is quite clear in Mt. 16:6-12, "And Jesus said to them, "Watch out and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and Sadducees." They began to discuss this among themselves, saying, "He said that because we did not bring any bread." But Jesus, aware of this, said, "You men of little faith, why do you discuss among yourselves that you have no bread? "Do you not yet understand or remember the five loaves of the five thousand, and how many baskets full you picked up? "Or the seven loaves of the four thousand, and how many large baskets full you picked up? "How is it that you do not understand that I did not speak to you concerning bread? But beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and Sadducees." Then they understood that He did not say to beware of the leaven of bread, but of the teaching of the Pharisees and Sadducees.

 

Get rid of your car then. People every year are run down by cars simply because the person driving used it as a lethal weapon to kill someone.

Who was it that meant it for evil but God meant it for good?

 

This is the same jibberish arguments moderationists use to jutify being sipping saints. "God meant alcoholic wine for good uses but the devil uses it for evil." I don't buy it. Alcoholic wine causes evil so it is evil; so it should be totally avoided by Christians.

But more important to me is that all Christians should always avoid the marriage act. Sex causes evil so it is evil. The sooner Christians learn to call all things evil that can be used for evil the better.

Besides, in my word studies and research into Bible cultures, "sex" did not really mean sex. "Sex" was of the kind that did not have any of the zip-zang of sex.

 

Yes, my research has confirmed that as well. I found Orwell's allusions in 1984 to the biblical method of reproduction as a duty not to be enjoyed in any way quite insightful.

 

Ephesians 5:3-4 But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints;
4 Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks.

Ephesians 5:11-12 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them.
12 For it is a shame even to speak of those things which are done of them in secret.

 

A lot of what you wrote goes against the historical Christian church and the common historical practice among Baptist churches and what many Baptist churches practice today in quite a number of other countries.

What I find interesting is that until prohibition Baptist churches used wine in their communion/Lord’s supper and passed a common cup. Your points do not agree with what Baptists did historically.

You mentioned about drinking and smoking. I see nowhere scripture even addresses the smoking issue directly. But it does address the wrong of getting drunk directly.

Seeing as how you addressed the issue of science. Scientists have been known to be wrong. I have read studies done one year apart put out by the US government and they completely disagreed. There are studies now that seem to indicate that small amounts of wine may be very good for a person. For example heart disease has gone down in Denmark they believe because of drinking small amounts of wine. What has been done in medicine is beginning to make the Christians who hang their hat on the ills of wine and not the inerrancy of scripture look rather foolish. Science may not always agree with scripture but I have always found that eventually science does agree with scripture when the truth comes out. God never contradicts Himself. The problem is that so many Christians in the interim try to bend towards science in an effort to try to explain scripture and make it agree with science. Scripture does not have to agree with science when science may be flawed. It only takes looking back just a few years to see that science considerable has changed but scripture has not. In fact Christians have sometimes looked rather stupid because they believed a lie somebody told and convinced the public it was true.

Is it scripture when convenient and science when convenient? I believe the Bible first even though I spent part of my life studying science and my wife graduated in biology.

Why do you not believe the Bible in its entirety and try to explain away what you do not feel comfortable with, using science. I do not drink and do not like the taste of the stuff. Yet I grew up on a grape farm. So I think I know a little bit about wine and grapes.

My point is that I am not stuck on wine. I am stuck on scripture and interpreting it in light of its historical context. To do that you cannot call wine, leaven. You cannot call Welch’s, grape juice, because it is not. Sometime look at a the label on a bottle of Welch’s and notice how much grape juice is actually in it and how it is pasteurized. Grape juice is not pasteurized nor fermented. However grape juice will begin to either rot or ferment immediately depending how it is cared for. Even if refrigerated it will mold. Wine and leaven are not even being close to the same thing.

People use cars to kill others. Should we quit driving. There are many things that when used correctly are good but when man abuses them they are harmful.

If you drink too much water you will die. So does that mean you should quit drinking water. Surely Jesus commanded Christians to give a cup of cold water in Jesus name. Would Jesus command Christian to give something that could kill them. I cannot think of one thing that will not kill you if taken in large amounts.

Just because a man gets drunk does not negate the fact that Jesus drank wine. Just because man misuses or abuses things and people does not mean we should get rid of them. People abuse people all the time but that does not mean we should get rid of the abused.

Do you not agree with what Paul wrote Timothy about drinking some wine for stomach ailments. Yes it is still prescribed by doctors today. I have a friend in ministry whose doctor prescribed it for him because he had some stomach problems many years ago.

Could you explain to me why the areas of the country where they preach against wine the most is where they have the most problems with teen age pregnancy and drinking yet they have the most number of Baptist churches. Doesn’t it occur to you that something is wrong.

 

Have you read 1 Corinthians 7:3-6, "The husband must fulfill his duty to his wife, and likewise also the wife to her husband. The wife does not have authority over her own body, but the husband does; and likewise also the husband does not have authority over his own body, but the wife does. Stop depriving one another, except by agreement for a time, so that you may devote yourselves to prayer, and come together again so that Satan will not tempt you because of your lack of self-control. But this I say by way of concession, not of command.

Do you have any idea what the Hebrew word translated "know" really means in that society at the time of the OT?

How did you come into being? Do you have a mother and father?

 

I think the comparison with sex is applicable. There are two kinds of sex in the bible, just as there are two kinds of wine. One type is the undefiled sex of the marriage bed, and one is the fornicating kind with the strange woman that leads to hell. One type of wine is the undefiled blood of the grape that contains a blessing, and one type is the fermented poison of asps that leads to fornicating with strange women that leads to hell.

 

Good point.

 

I agree with ACADEMIC. This passage clearly states that having marital relations is a duty, and everyone knows that duties are not to be enjoyed. If we enjoy it then we are obviously doing it wrong.

Besides, s-e-x has caused so much turmoil and pain in the world I don't know why a Christian would want to have anything to do with it anyway.

 

Are you married?

Do you think Jesus went to the cross as a duty? Did we not benefit from His obedience to the Father and his love for us.

Isn't your view of scripture a rather dim view of a command God gave? I consider every one of God's commands for my benefit. If it benefits me it pleasures me. If carrying out a responsibility is not enjoyable then what is obedience to God? Drudgery? My greatest pleasure is being obedient to God. Serving God is a life long process of getting rid of my selfishness and learning to love. Loving my wife is a responsibility to her and to God. If I love my wife usually it returns to me> However I do not love her because I will get love in return. I love her because that is my responsibility

Imagine what life would be like for children if a husband and wife did not carry out their responsibility/duty to their children and considered that something which is not enjoyable?

 

Ahhh, now I am beginning to understand. It is the Puritan view: if something causes pleasure, it must be sinful!

There go sunsets, music, and laughter. I should pull up all my roses, give away the animals (but that would give someone else pleasure....I just can't avoid sin!), and forget quiet times in the mornings.

I'd better swear off Baptist Board, too, as I get such a kick out of some of this stuff!

I absolutely REFUSE to give up my husband, though, even though being his wife gives me incredible pleasure and joy. I'll just have to stay with that sin and hope the Lord will forgive me!

 

{sorry - I was just being absurd to illustrate the absurdity of some of the anti-alcohol arguments - I guess I didn't make it clear enough - don't tell the others though}

 

Yes, dear Sister---I understand---but forbidding to indulge in alcoholic beverages is not a Puritan law because it is deemed a pleasure.

A beautiful sunrise and sunset---will not alter one's mind

A piece of music played well---will not alter one's mind

A laugh here and there will not alter one's mind

Giving away the rose garden or the animal farm will not alter one's mind

And your husband certainly should be a pleasure to you---but still, that will not alter one's mind. The Bible does not say its a sin to "linger long" with your husband---nor I with my wife!! But it does say not to linger long at the wine----and that linger---no matter how short---is too long!!! I chose to abstain---because I do not want to succume to any minute fraction of my mind becomeing altered beyond the control of the Holy Spirit. I have but one influencer of my mind--and that is the Spirit of the Lord Jesus Christ!

Bro. David