DHK said:
Leaven throughout the Bible is a symbol of sin, corruption and false doctrine.
God creates many things on a regular basis that man mis-uses or abuses. So what?
Use any grape juice. Use Welch's grape juice. It is non-alcoholic. As I explained before, the Jews were not molecular scientists, but the social drinkers of today will use any excuse to justify their drinking.
So can purified water, yogurt, and a multitude of other things. Why are you stuck on alcoholic beverages, which almost any doctor will advise you to stay away from you. The first thing they ask you when you get a medical is: Do you smoke; Do you drink? They are two greatest causes of bad health.
A lot of what you wrote goes against the historical Christian church and the common historical practice among Baptist churches and what many Baptist churches practice today in quite a number of other countries.
What I find interesting is that until prohibition Baptist churches used wine in their communion/Lord’s supper and passed a common cup. Your points do not agree with what Baptists did historically.
You mentioned about drinking and smoking. I see nowhere scripture even addresses the smoking issue directly. But it does address the wrong of getting drunk directly.
Seeing as how you addressed the issue of science. Scientists have been known to be wrong. I have read studies done one year apart put out by the US government and they completely disagreed. There are studies now that seem to indicate that small amounts of wine may be very good for a person. For example heart disease has gone down in Denmark they believe because of drinking small amounts of wine. What has been done in medicine is beginning to make the Christians who hang their hat on the ills of wine and not the inerrancy of scripture look rather foolish. Science may not always agree with scripture but I have always found that eventually science does agree with scripture when the truth comes out. God never contradicts Himself. The problem is that so many Christians in the interim try to bend towards science in an effort to try to explain scripture and make it agree with science. Scripture does not have to agree with science when science may be flawed. It only takes looking back just a few years to see that science considerable has changed but scripture has not. In fact Christians have sometimes looked rather stupid because they believed a lie somebody told and convinced the public it was true.
Is it scripture when convenient and science when convenient? I believe the Bible first even though I spent part of my life studying science and my wife graduated in biology.
Why do you not believe the Bible in its entirety and try to explain away what you do not feel comfortable with, using science. I do not drink and do not like the taste of the stuff. Yet I grew up on a grape farm. So I think I know a little bit about wine and grapes.
My point is that I am not stuck on wine. I am stuck on scripture and interpreting it in light of its historical context. To do that you cannot call wine, leaven. You cannot call Welch’s, grape juice, because it is not. Sometime look at a the label on a bottle of Welch’s and notice how much grape juice is actually in it and how it is pasteurized. Grape juice is not pasteurized nor fermented. However grape juice will begin to either rot or ferment immediately depending how it is cared for. Even if refrigerated it will mold. Wine and leaven are not even being close to the same thing.
People use cars to kill others. Should we quit driving. There are many things that when used correctly are good but when man abuses them they are harmful.
If you drink too much water you will die. So does that mean you should quit drinking water. Surely Jesus commanded Christians to give a cup of cold water in Jesus name. Would Jesus command Christian to give something that could kill them. I cannot think of one thing that will not kill you if taken in large amounts.
Just because a man gets drunk does not negate the fact that Jesus drank wine. Just because man misuses or abuses things and people does not mean we should get rid of them. People abuse people all the time but that does not mean we should get rid of the abused.
Do you not agree with what Paul wrote Timothy about drinking some wine for stomach ailments. Yes it is still prescribed by doctors today. I have a friend in ministry whose doctor prescribed it for him because he had some stomach problems many years ago.
Could you explain to me why the areas of the country where they preach against wine the most is where they have the most problems with teen age pregnancy and drinking yet they have the most number of Baptist churches. Doesn’t it occur to you that something is wrong.
