The Bible and capital punishment

[canadyjd]

Roguelet

You said, "I didn't call you names it is your belief that is wimpy. Hate to tell you but most Christians are Conservatives, most Conservatives are Republicians, and most Republicans are FOR the DEATH PENALTY !"

I see in your beliefs a strong marriage of so called "christianity" and politics. If I remember my history right, that was tried for about 1500 years. It was then that the "government" executed people the "christians" decided were too evil-hearted for God to save. (I wonder if the Catholic church executed child-molestors back then...? Given their response today, I doubt it)

So the "church" develops groups of assassins (Jesuits) to infiltrate reformed churches to look for "heretics" and kill them at will. Is that Christ-like? Of course not. Neither is the support of the death penalty.


My beliefs are based on the clear teaching of scripture, part of which is found in I Tim. 1:16, which I notice you continue to ignore. They are no more wimpy than Jesus praying for the men who were killing Him.

Did He say, "Father, these men are too "evil-hearted" to be saved. Please make sure Peter or one of my other less evil followers tracks them down and kills them" No, He prayed for forgiveness. He prayed for mercy.

I will say it as plainly as I can.

Jesus wants people to live. Satan wants people to die.

Be like Jesus.

 

[gb93433]

Originally posted by canadyjd:


Roguelet

You said, "I didn't call you names it is your belief that is wimpy. Hate to tell you but most Christians are Conservatives, most Conservatives are Republicians, and most Republicans are FOR the DEATH PENALTY !"

You forgot that the average Christian never leads one person to Christ in an entire lifetime and lives like a practical atheist.

Jesus didn't call for conservative Christianity but radical Christianity.

Perhaps you do know there have been executions of innocent people. How would you like that person to be you?

[ October 20, 2005, 12:04 AM: Message edited by: DHK ]

 

[Roguelet]

canadyjd

1 Tim 1:16 has nothing to do with unbelievers. it has to do with Believers. Like I said before in the above.

You cannot use to this to say those who break the law do not receive punishment for their " CRIMES ". I do not know any Christian who thinks we can sin, saved or not and not suffer the consequences !

So what do you think the punishment should be for someone who murders more than once ? Please tell me ?

Should a person who Steals, Cheats, Lies, sell Drugs etc. receive the SAME punishment as a serial Rapist, serial Murderer and serial child Molestor ?

Or do you think there should be NO PUNISHMENMT for any of them ? Show mercy and long suffering to ALL like you think 1 Tim 1:16 says ?

 

[StraightAndNarrow]

Originally posted by Roguelet:
I do not believe in murdering unborn children, the government is flawed in its laws about abortion just like it is about the death penalty. actually it is twisted. it should be the other way around. Save innocent babies and put to death repeat killers. THAT IS THE WAY IT SHOULD BE ! Not my fault the laws are twisted.

Its not an unjust war, maybe you haven't noticed but we haven't been attact since we went to war. Other countries need to know we are not WIMPS we are not going to be trampled on. Actually this proves my point harsher reactions to sin like terrorist and they get the hint to leave us alone. harsher punishment for repeat murderers and maybe we wouldn't have SO MANY !

Was Jesus a WIMP when He told us to turn the other cheek and to love our neighbor? You're mixing up Christianity and patriotism which many people try to do today.

 

[canadyjd]

Originally posted by gb93433:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by canadyjd:

Roguelet

You said, "I didn't call you names it is your belief that is wimpy. Hate to tell you but most Christians are Conservatives, most Conservatives are Republicians, and most Republicans are FOR the DEATH PENALTY !"

You forgot that the average Christian never leads one person to Christ in an entire lifetime and lives like a practical atheist.

Jesus didn't call for conservative Christianity but radical Christianity.

Perhaps you do know there have been executions of innocent people. How would you like that person to be you? </font>[/QUOTE]This is really strange, but I did not write what you have quoted me as saying. That was something Roguelet said.

[ October 19, 2005, 11:58 PM: Message edited by: DHK ]

 

[canadyjd]

Roguelet

Thank you for addressing I Tim. 1:16.

I Tim. 1:16 is all about the attitudes that believers should have toward unbelievers, especially violent unbelievers like Paul who was the "foremost" sinner because he persecuted the church, even to the death.

That is exactly what this debate is about. What attitudes should true Christians have toward the most violent sinners.

This verse tells us to have the same kind of "perfect patience" with these types of people that Jesus had with Paul. That means we pray for them and pursue them with the gospel. We desire their life, not their death.

It absolutely cannot mean that we would support or seek their death. That would be the opposite of "perfect patience".

From this verse I can confidently say, and will continue to do so, that to seek or support the death of anyone is unChristlike.

 

[canadyjd]

Roguelet

I have never said people shouldn't be punished for crimes, or denied that they will suffer the consequences for their actions.

I have consistently said it is unChristlike to seek or support the death of anyone.

If you want to start another thread about whether our penal system should be geared toward rehabilitation rather than punishment, I would be happy to read it and comment.

Right now, let's stick with the death penalty. Once we get that all straightened out, we can fix the rest of our criminal justice system.

 

[StraightAndNarrow]

Originally posted by Roguelet:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Christians married to non-Christians are urged in the Bible to stay with their mate in the hope that they might be saved.

WHAT ! If that unbeliever sins by commiting adultry or if he leaves, then the Marriage bond is broken. I would go a step further if a spouse is abusive to the point he/she could commit murder to his wife/husband or harm the chilren in a serious way or even molest them. I would hope that believer would get out as fast as he/she could !

God is in the " SAVING " business don't get me wrong. But not at the expense of his children ( Christians ) and innocent people.

GIVE ME A BREAK ! </font>[/QUOTE]1Cr 7:12 But to the rest speak I, not the Lord: If any brother hath a wife that believeth not, and she be pleased to dwell with him, let him not put her away.
1Cr 7:13 And the woman which hath an husband that believeth not, and if he be pleased to dwell with her, let her not leave him.
1Cr 7:14 For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy.
1Cr 7:15 But if the unbelieving depart, let him depart. A brother or a sister is not under bondage in such [cases]: but God hath called us to peace.

 

[fatbacker]

I do not see how people can compare the death penalty to abortion. The death penalty is for people who are guilty of murder and have been rightly convicted of it. Abortion is the murder of unborn babies who have yet to even take their first breath.

God gave our government the right to pass judgement on people for their actions and if that means death then death it is.

The death penaly is to protect society from its worst offenders.

What if the person gets saved or if he can be saved? We have a thief on the cross to show it is never to late.

I believe sometimes God will allow us to die not only to protect others but maybe because to live the rest of the life here on earth could be way to much for that person." To live is Christ to die is gain". There are lots of ways we could read that but if the person did get saved he is better off now.

 

[Roguelet]

Right Fatbacker

I am still waiting for Straightandnarrow and canadyjd to answer my question ? There has to be some kind of punishment for these offenders and that punishment shouldn't be the same for lesser offenses. Most Christians attitudes should be and probably are the same as Gods, who demands consequenses for sin and the PROTECTION of our society. And 1 Tim isn't saying what you think it does canadyjd ! where does it say that people are not resposible for their sins that they do not have to be punished on Earth ? find me a verse that says we should let everyone sin and get away with it ?


AGAIN MY QUESTION IS and I already explained there is NO rehabilitation for serial violent habitual offenders. Do the research.

So what do you think the punishment should be for someone who murders more than once ? Please tell me ?

Should a person who Steals, Cheats, Lies, sell Drugs etc. receive the SAME punishment as a serial Rapist, serial Murderer and serial child Molestor ?

Or do you think there should be NO PUNISISHMENT for any of them ? Show mercy and long suffering to ALL like you think 1 Tim 1:16 says ?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

[Roguelet]

Here is just ONE Quote from a NEWS article clipping on rehab for serial killers.

As far as rehabilitation of these individuals is concerned, according to Berrill, most serial killers are not capable of changing and truly belong in prison.

"It would be very hard to imagine a serial killer being successfully treated in therapy or rehabilitated," he said. "At the other end of treatment or incarceration, it’s unlikely you would find a healthy person. Usually they are just very dangerous. With serial killers, there’s no illness to treat...it’s more of a personality pathology. I suppose prison is really the only true way of containing these guys."

Melloy agreed.

"There is no evidence that there’s successful treatment or rehabilitation for serial murderers," he said.

CHECK OUT THIS STORY....hows this for rehab ?

http://www.crimezzz.net/serialkillers/U/UNTERWEGER_jack.htm
.

 

[canadyjd]

fatbacker

You said, "God gave our government the right to pass judgement on people for their actions and if that means death then death it is."

I guess you would support the death penalty, no matter what, as long as the "government" gave it's appoval?

When Paul wrote Romans, Nero was on the throne in Rome. Nero "passed judgement" on Christians and decided to dip several thousand in oil and then burn them alive on crosses so he could light up his garden for a party.

Since Nero was in charge of the "government", do you support his decision on the death penalty?

In some countries in the Middle East today, the "government" can sentence a Christian to death because they converted from Islam. Do you support those "governments" on their decision to use the death penalty?

 

[canadyjd]

Roguelet

You said, "find me a verse that says we should let everyone sin and get away with it ?"

You show me a verse where Jesus gives Christians the responsiblity for punishing unbelievers for anything.

You show me one verse where Jesus, or any Apostle, or any disciple of Jesus, or any New Testament believer is told to seek or support the death of anyone!!

 

[canadyjd]

Roguelet

I Tim. 1:16

"Yet for this reason I found mercy, so that in me as the foremost, Jesus Christ might demonstrate His perfect patience as an example for those who would believe in Him for eternal life"

1. Paul says he is the foremost sinner. He was a "violent aggressor". In Acts 22 and 24 Paul says he was responsible for the death of Christians. Paul was a murderer of both men and women.

2. At least part of the reason for Paul's salvation was to be example for future believers.

3. The example is "perfect patience" which Jesus demonstrated in His pouring out of mercy on Paul.

If it doesn't mean what it clearly says, then what do you think it means?

Consider Chapter 2 v.1 "I urge that entreaties and prayers, petitions and thanksgivings be made on behalf all men....(v.3)This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior (4) who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth."

I see no command to make sure sinners recieve punishment. I see no command to support the death penalty.

 

[canadyjd]

Roguelet

I believe this is taking us off the subject, but since you persist, I will respond.

You said,
______
"So what do you think the punishment should be for someone who murders more than once ? Please tell me ?

Should a person who Steals, Cheats, Lies, sell Drugs etc. receive the SAME punishment as a serial Rapist, serial Murderer and serial child Molestor ?"
______

The answer to your first question is that I think it should not be death. Life in prison without parole.

The answer to your second question is no.

 

[gb93433]

Originally posted by Roguelet:


So what do you think the punishment should be for someone who murders more than once ? Please tell me?

What was Moses', David's and Paul's time for killing people? Did not Paul murder many? Was the law carried out?

 

[Roguelet]

First answer me this you all and then I will answer you. No fair avoiding my question, just because you have no good answer !

1 Tim 1:16 has nothing to do with unbelievers or crimminals. it has to do with Believers. Like I said before in the above.

You cannot use this to say those who break the law do not receive punishment for their " CRIMES ". I do not know any Christian who thinks we can sin, saved or not and not suffer the consequences !

So what do you think the punishment should be for someone who murders more than once ? Please tell me ?

Should a person who Steals, Cheats, Lies, sell Drugs etc. receive the SAME punishment as a serial Rapist, serial Murderer and serial child Molestor ?

Or do you think there should be NO PUNISHMENT for any of them ? Show mercy and long suffering to ALL like you think 1 Tim 1:16 says ?

.

 

[StraightAndNarrow]

Originally posted by Roguelet:
Right Fatbacker

I am still waiting for Straightandnarrow and canadyjd to answer my question ? There has to be some kind of punishment for these offenders and that punishment shouldn't be the same for lesser offenses. Most Christians attitudes should be and probably are the same as Gods, who demands consequenses for sin and the PROTECTION of our society. And 1 Tim isn't saying what you think it does canadyjd ! where does it say that people are not resposible for their sins that they do not have to be punished on Earth ? find me a verse that says we should let everyone sin and get away with it ?


AGAIN MY QUESTION IS and I already explained there is NO rehabilitation for serial violent habitual offenders. Do the research.

So what do you think the punishment should be for someone who murders more than once ? Please tell me ?

Should a person who Steals, Cheats, Lies, sell Drugs etc. receive the SAME punishment as a serial Rapist, serial Murderer and serial child Molestor ?

Or do you think there should be NO PUNISISHMENT for any of them ? Show mercy and long suffering to ALL like you think 1 Tim 1:16 says ?

What question? I just see a lot of ranting and raving.

 

[Roguelet]

Canadyjd I'm sorry but I just noticed you did answer my question thanks.

The answer to your first question is that I think it should not be death. Life in prison without parole.

The answer to your second question is no.

Yes I agree so far that if we cannot inforce the death penalty ( not saying you do ) then those who do such horrible crimes should spend the rest of their life in prison. I totally agree, problem is the way our justice system is that doesn't always happen, and i have a hard time with my tax dollars paying for them to have a better quality of life than the homeless have If we could guarentee that they will not be let out on parol that would be good too, life in prison. But sad to say they usually get out just to KILL again.

I have to admit there needs to be more done to fix the system, cause as of now it stinks !

 

[canadyjd]

Roguelet

I agree that these are horrible crimes and it makes my stomach turn. My first response is to cry out for vengence, justice, some type of punishment that makes people realize that we won't tolerate it in our society.

I can safely say that you do not have to be a believer to have that kind of response.

But as Christians, we must be focused on responding to these issues in ways that are consistent with what God has taught us in His Word.

I Tim. 1:16 has changed my perspective on this issue. It is clear what is taught here, and elsewhere, concerning what a believer's attitude should be toward the worst of sinners. Without offering excuses, they are slaves to sin and Satan, just as we were prior to salvation.

We must have the same kind of "perfect patience" that Christ demonstrated toward Paul. We must pray for them, and petition God to pour out His mercy on them.

Let me ask this question. What would have a greater impact on advancing the cause of Christ in the world?

1. That Osma Bin Laudin is captured and executed.

2. That Osama Bin Laudin is transformed by God into a born-again believer in the Lord Jesus Christ and spends the rest of his life professing His name throughout the Islamic world?

Let's get our minds on the things above, and not on the things below.