The Bible condemns OSAS doctrine.. yet some folks still believe it

[BobRyan]

Jesus Himself claimed that NONE whom he saves will ever be lost again, right or wrong?

I think you are trying to quote some text of scripture but still can't get beyond quoting yourself.

Would it be too much to ask that you go to the actual Bible and quote it and then we can discuss it?

I hate to have to keep reminding you that you are still merely quoting yourself.

 

[BobRyan]

The Original Post ignores the fact that we are to confirm our election. It is not like we grow into our election, our salvation, it is more like it was either there or not.
.

How would you choose to fit that idea into the details of Matthew 18 or Romans 11?

For example let's notice the Bible details in these two examples.

Matt 18
32 Then summoning him, his lord *said to him, ‘You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me. 33 Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?’ 34 And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him. 35 My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.”

In that example "it is a given" that "I forgave you ALL that debt" - it is not even questioned.
your response is of the form 'be sure you are one that was forgiven ALL that debt" - but the text solves that for you - it says "that is a given" in this case. It is in the starting condition.

It goes on from there to say that IN THAT group of people who HAVE been forgiven all - (and ONLY in that group) - it is expected of them that they forgive others just as they HAVE been fully forgiven.

Your post seems to circle back to the starting condition as if the parable was setup to question it - but noting in the parable questions that starting condition.

This is irrefutable. It is a detail right there in the text.

===================================== next Romans 11

Romans 11
19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. 22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.


In Romans 11 we find "you STAND by your faith" -- this is a "given" it is not even questioned. It is saying to the person who IS standing by their faith - that they should fear. And why (in the details that you read in the text) does the text say they should fear since it is a given that they stand by faith?

Your post only questions the starting condition - but the text itself never does.

the fact is - you cannot fall ... unless you are in fact standing. The "fallen" cannot "fall" nor are they at risk of falling.

 

[poor-in-spirit]

Choose the Bible - as your basis for doctrine

Matt 18
32 Then summoning him, his lord *said to him, ‘You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me. 33 Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?’ 34 And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him. 35 My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.”

Romans 11
19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. 22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

1 Cor 6
9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, 10 nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified

Perhaps some Truth lies in the chapters before 18 in Matthew my friend, please consider:

Chapter 13 teaches extensively on tares, not only how they are made in the Parable of the sower but also how they are infiltrated into every NT assembly in His Parable of the Tares (in connected context to the Sower). Jesus made it quite clear that tares are in local assemblies, always have been since His day and will continue until He comes back. Basic mathematical analysis will show 3 bastards to one son ratio within local assemblies.

I read a study a while back in regards to wheat farming in Lebanon. There are 3 types of weeds always present in wheat fields in that region, all three upon quick visual inspection resemble the wheat but when you come close and truly examine, you can see the differences. Those farmers also allowed them to grow with the wheat, until harvest that is......

Now since the fruit of the Spirit is evidence of regeneration, wouldn't it make more sense to see that the passages you quote refer to tares and never to those who are regenerated, indwelt and sealed until the day of redemption? Galatians 5:

Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, 20Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, 21Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. 22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, 23Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. 24And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. 25If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit (IOW: stop pretending)

You see the fruit of the Spirit is the only goal in life that a person indwelt by the Spirit will want without chastisement:

Hebrews 12:8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.

God did not put Gal 5 and so many similar in His Word to confuse true believers, He put these passages in His Word to show us how we can know we are His and how we can understand who is not, even though they claim they are and outwardly appear the same. Remember the weed must be closely inspected to discover its differences. This kind of inspection cannot occur 3 times a week at church for an hour and a half a pop. Only their own hearts can see the difference and you see the heart is desperately wicked, who can know it?

Tares are here, they always have been and they have always been in every local assembly. It makes sense that the Epistles were written with instructions to deal with them. Repentance or explusion is the purpose of discipline and all truly born of the Spirit will repent so execution of discipline cannot be directed toward the wheat.

Warnings are given throughout the Epistles to tares to "make sure they are in the faith" and to "work out their own salvation with fear and trembling" and "make their calling and election sure". These were not written for the regenerated. Check each context and you will see similar lists of those deluded and those truly saved. The regenerated confess their sins to the Lord constantly, they would never need a prodding from men through church disciple.

 

[BobRyan]

Matt 18
32 Then summoning him, his lord *said to him, ‘You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me. 33 Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?’ 34 And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him. 35 My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.”

Somebody wants to use parables to prove a point of theology? .

in Matthew 18 that would be Jesus.

Peter comes to Jesus with a question on the doctrine of forgiveness.

Jesus answer ends with this direct instruction to Peter. 35 My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.”


Matt 18
32 Then summoning him, his lord *said to him, ‘You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me. 33 Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?’ 34 And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him. 35 My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.”

 

[BobRyan]

Warnings are given throughout the Epistles to tares to "make sure they are in the faith" and to "work out their own salvation with fear and trembling" and "make their calling and election sure". These were not written for the regenerated. Check each context and you will see similar lists of those deluded and those truly saved. The regenerated confess their sins to the Lord constantly, they would never need a prodding from men through church disciple.

in the Matthew 18 teaching of Christ - He gives only one reason - only one "basis" for anyone to forgive anyone else. And that is "I forgave you ALL that debt" -- only those who HAVE been fully forgiven were even being asked to forgive others.

The teaching was not about the obligation of those who HAD NOT experienced full forgiveness - to forgive others (that would tares)

The teaching of Christ in Matthew 18 is about the obligation of those who HAVE already experienced full forgiveness.

Matt 18
32 Then summoning him, his lord *said to him, ‘You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me. 33 Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?’

Notice "in the same way" ??

The point is - that the fully forgiven person experienced it - and out of that experience would be expected to then go and do likewise "in the same way that I had mercy on you"

 

[BobRyan]

Honestly I do not understand this post. I have no idea what you are saying.

That's fine.

But I am thankful that several others do understand the point of the texts and are taking the time to work through the details in that actual texts.

 

[BobRyan]

On the other hand, when one comes to the Word of God with preconceived ideas, one can see pet doctrines in several places where they do not actually exist.

My point exactly

I am hoping the details in these 3 example texts will help open eyes to a very real doctrinal statement in the NT.

 

[Steven Yeadon]

Perhaps some Truth lies in the chapters before 18 in Matthew my friend, please consider:

Chapter 13 teaches extensively on tares, not only how they are made in the Parable of the sower but also how they are infiltrated into every NT assembly in His Parable of the Tares (in connected context to the Sower). Jesus made it quite clear that tares are in local assemblies, always have been since His day and will continue until He comes back. Basic mathematical analysis will show 3 bastards to one son ratio within local assemblies.

I read a study a while back in regards to wheat farming in Lebanon. There are 3 types of weeds always present in wheat fields in that region, all three upon quick visual inspection resemble the wheat but when you come close and truly examine, you can see the differences. Those farmers also allowed them to grow with the wheat, until harvest that is......

Now since the fruit of the Spirit is evidence of regeneration, wouldn't it make more sense to see that the passages you quote refer to tares and never to those who are regenerated, indwelt and sealed until the day of redemption? Galatians 5:

Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, 20Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, 21Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. 22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, 23Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. 24And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. 25If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit (IOW: stop pretending)

You see the fruit of the Spirit is the only goal in life that a person indwelt by the Spirit will want without chastisement:

Hebrews 12:8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.

God did not put Gal 5 and so many similar in His Word to confuse true believers, He put these passages in His Word to show us how we can know we are His and how we can understand who is not, even though they claim they are and outwardly appear the same. Remember the weed must be closely inspected to discover its differences. This kind of inspection cannot occur 3 times a week at church for an hour and a half a pop. Only their own hearts can see the difference and you see the heart is desperately wicked, who can know it?

Tares are here, they always have been and they have always been in every local assembly. It makes sense that the Epistles were written with instructions to deal with them. Repentance or explusion is the purpose of discipline and all truly born of the Spirit will repent so execution of discipline cannot be directed toward the wheat.

Warnings are given throughout the Epistles to tares to "make sure they are in the faith" and to "work out their own salvation with fear and trembling" and "make their calling and election sure". These were not written for the regenerated. Check each context and you will see similar lists of those deluded and those truly saved. The regenerated confess their sins to the Lord constantly, they would never need a prodding from men through church disciple.

I agree almost entirely. I will add that sometimes we do sin boldly and must be shown mercy, Peter from abandoning Jesus at the Cross to supporting the those arguing Gentiles are under the OT Law is an excellent example of this. Sometimes we screw up our race, even the man who slept with his mother came back to the fold in 2 Corinthians. I just wanted to say that for those, including myself, that have wandered form the fold as foolish and stupid sheep, but came back with rebuke.

 

[Steven Yeadon]

How would you choose to fit that idea into the details of Matthew 18 or Romans 11?

For example let's notice the Bible details in these two examples.

Matt 18
32 Then summoning him, his lord *said to him, ‘You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me. 33 Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?’ 34 And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him. 35 My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.”

In that example "it is a given" that "I forgave you ALL that debt" - it is not even questioned.
your response is of the form 'be sure you are one that was forgiven ALL that debt" - but the text solves that for you - it says "that is a given" in this case. It is in the starting condition.

It goes on from there to say that IN THAT group of people who HAVE been forgiven all - (and ONLY in that group) - it is expected of them that they forgive others just as they HAVE been fully forgiven.

Your post seems to circle back to the starting condition as if the parable was setup to question it - but noting in the parable questions that starting condition.

This is irrefutable. It is a detail right there in the text.

===================================== next Romans 11

Romans 11
19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. 22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.


In Romans 11 we find "you STAND by your faith" -- this is a "given" it is not even questioned. It is saying to the person who IS standing by their faith - that they should fear. And why (in the details that you read in the text) does the text say they should fear since it is a given that they stand by faith?

Your post only questions the starting condition - but the text itself never does.

the fact is - you cannot fall ... unless you are in fact standing. The "fallen" cannot "fall" nor are they at risk of falling.

As I said earlier:

I see a problem now that is twofold:

1. You are elect or not, you have the Spirit of God indwelling you as an eternal deposit (Ephesians 1:14) or not, you are born again from above or not.

2. Our wills are appealed to in the bible in order to act morally and to prove our salvation. Some have taken this to mean "Do everything as if it is all on me, and know it is all on God." I once read that in a conservative, literalist Study Bible. I am wary of this argument, but I bring it up to discuss it in this thread. Could that argument be right?

In Philippians 4:3 we are told by Paul of people he has confidence are in the Lamb's book of Life because they contended for the Gospel with him. This stands out because it is so rare and because it would imply that such people have proved their election.

Also, what of the plethora of bible verses to the elect that we will persevere? The classic OSAS verses I will reference:

What Does the Bible Say About Once Saved Always Saved?

 

[One Baptism]

...

In Philippians 4:3 we are told by Paul of people he has confidence are in the Lamb's book of Life because they contended for the Gospel with him. ...

One thing at a time:

Philippians 4:3 KJB - And I intreat thee also, true yokefellow, help those women which laboured with me in the gospel, with Clement also, and with other my fellowlabourers, whose names are in the book of life.​

Yes, names are in the "book of life" presently. How did they get there?

Can a name be removed, once written in the book of life? Yes. God is able to do this:

Exodus 32:32 KJB - Yet now, if thou wilt forgive their sin; and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which thou hast written.

Exodus 32:33 KJB - And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.

Revelation 3:5 KJB - He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

Revelation 22:19 KJB - And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.​

[Books of Heaven]

God has various "books" of records that are kept:

Yet now, if thou wilt forgive their sin--; and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which thou hast written. Exodus 32:32

And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book. Exodus 32:33

...Thou tellest my wanderings: put thou my tears into thy bottle: [are they] not in thy book. Psalms 56:8

...Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book all [my members] were written, [which] in continuance were fashioned, when [as yet there was] none of them. Psalms 139:16

And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation [even] to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. Daniel 12:1

And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals. Revelation 5:1

And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof? Revelation 5:2

And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon. Revelation 5:3

And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon. Revelation 5:4

And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof. Revelation 5:5

And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne. Revelation 5:7

And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four [and] twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints. Revelation 5:8

And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; Revelation 5:9

And I intreat thee also, true yokefellow, help those women which laboured with me in the gospel, with Clement also, and [with] other my fellowlabourers, whose names [are] in the book of life. Philippians 4:3

He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels. Revelation 3:5

And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. Revelation 13:8

The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is. Revelation 17:8

And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is [the book] of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. Revelation 20:12

And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. Revelation 20:15

And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither [whatsoever] worketh abomination, or [maketh] a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life. Revelation 21:27

And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and [from] the things which are written in this book. Revelation 22:19

Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous. Psalms 69:28

Then they that feared the LORD spake often one to another: and the LORD hearkened, and heard [it], and a book of remembrance was written before him for them that feared the LORD, and that thought upon his name. Malachi 3:16

I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, [that] I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live: Deuteronomy 30:19

Gather unto me all the elders of your tribes, and your officers, that I may speak these words in their ears, and call heaven and earth to record against them. Deuteronomy 31:28

Also now, behold, my witness [is] in heaven, and my record [is] on high. Job 16:19

Moreover I call God for a record upon my soul, that to spare you I came not as yet unto Corinth. 2 Corinthians 1:23

For God is my record, how greatly I long after you all in the bowels of Jesus Christ. Philippians 1:8

And he spread it before me; and it [was] written within and without: and [there was] written therein lamentations, and mourning, and woe. Ezekiel 2:10

But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, [and] doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked [man] doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die. Ezekiel 18:24

[[To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David, when Nathan the prophet came unto him, after he had gone in to Bathsheba.]] Have mercy upon me, O God, according to thy lovingkindness: according unto the multitude of thy tender mercies blot out my transgressions. Psalms 51:1

Hide thy face from my sins, and blot out all mine iniquities. Psalms 51:9

Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; Acts 3:19

For though thou wash thee with nitre, and take thee much soap, [yet] thine iniquity is marked before me, saith the Lord GOD. Jeremiah 2:22

And cover not their iniquity, and let not their sin be blotted out from before thee: for they have provoked [thee] to anger before the builders. Nehemiah 4:5

Yet, LORD, thou knowest all their counsel against me to slay [me]: forgive not their iniquity, neither blot out their sin from thy sight, but let them be overthrown before thee; deal [thus] with them in the time of thine anger. Jeremiah 18:23

Let the iniquity of his fathers be remembered with the LORD; and let not the sin of his mother be blotted out. Psalms 109:14

Behold, [it is] written before me: I will not keep silence, but will recompense, even recompense into their bosom, Isaiah 65:6

Your iniquities, and the iniquities of your fathers together, saith the LORD, which have burned incense upon the mountains, and blasphemed me upon the hills: therefore will I measure their former work into their bosom. Isaiah 65:7​

 

[One Baptism]

...Also, what of the plethora of bible verses to the elect that we will persevere? The classic OSAS verses I will reference:

[link removed]

Classic, does not mean correct. Also, that the site uses the ESV [2001; a 'revision' of the RSV, a Roman Catholic approved edition to be sure, see Cardinal Carlo Maria Martini, SJ [Jesuit], see the UBS opening text and editors see "C. M. Martini" - UBS Translations | New Testament]

Let's start with the first one on the list:

[1] John 10:27-30 KJB. Does this teach OSAS? Hardly, look again:

John 10:27 KJB - My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

John 10:28 KJB - And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

John 10:29 KJB - My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.​

Here is the GNT TR for all those who get tickled by that sorta thing [now doesn't that just help all the non-Greek readers?] -

John 10:27 GNT TR - τα προβατα τα εμα της φωνης μου ακουει καγω γινωσκω αυτα και ακολουθουσιν μοι

John 10:28 GNT TR - καγω ζωην αιωνιον διδωμι αυτοις και ου μη απολωνται εις τον αιωνα και ουχ αρπασει τις αυτα εκ της χειρος μου

John 10:29 GNT TR - ο πατηρ μου ος δεδωκεν μοι μειζων παντων εστιν και ουδεις δυναται αρπαζειν εκ της χειρος του πατρος μου​

In John 10:27-29 KJB; The word "pluck", translated from the Koine Greek "αρπασει" [[h]arpasei] and "αρπαζειν" [[h]arpazein] and it means "to forcefully take away, to snatch away by might/power" [Strong's Concordance, for those who like extra bibilical definitions], and no one is saying that anyone can do so.

How did the Devil get Man to sin, did he forcibly take Man [Adam and Eve] from God, or was it through deception, and drawing away? We'll come back to this idea in a moment.

Look at the other texts that the word "pluck" is used, in scripture [KJB], which is how actual Bible study is done:

"take Him [Jesus] by force" - John 6:15

"the wolf catcheth them" - John 10:12

"the Spirit of the LORD caught away Philip" - Acts 8:39

"to take him [Paul] by force" - Acts 23:10

etc.​

Therefore John 10:27-29 KJB, in substitution [for the ways of the LORD are equal], read that "no [man] can take them by force out of my hand ... Father's hand."; and therefore is in complete harmony with the other texts of Scripture which declare that we may be "drawn away" and freely leave His hand:

James 1:14 KJB - But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.​

No forcing away here, but rather a freely leaving through being drawn away through two things, [1] external temptation [male aspect], and [2] internal desire/lust [female aspect]. When these two meet, in illicit union, then it produces sin [a child, which grows into a full grown adult] and brings death.

We can either be drawn to Christ Jesus, or away.

It is not a matter of being more powerful than God, it is a matter of love.

Just as the Israelites were the "ensamples" [types] [1 Corinthians 10:11 KJB] for us, as they were just upon the borders of entering in, they were ensnared of the enemy, and were destroyed! Do not we see the real danger of the same unto our own soul?! They could turn away from God, even as we, by our own free choice that God gave unto us. We would then be using the power of the choice that God gave us to refuse God.

Numbers 32:15 KJB - For if ye turn away from after him, he will yet again leave them in the wilderness; and ye shall destroy all this people.

Deuteronomy 30:17 KJB - But if thine heart turn away, so that thou wilt not hear, but shalt be drawn away, and worship other gods, and serve them;

Deuteronomy 30:18 KJB - I denounce unto you this day, that ye shall surely perish, and that ye shall not prolong your days upon the land, whither thou passest over Jordan to go to possess it.
​

Again, salvation is like unto a marriage covenant, God will not let any forcefully take them from His hand, and if the once believing, no longer desires to believe the truth, but rather instead is drawn away and loves to believe a lie, God will not force any to remain, and will let them go [ultimately]:

1 Corinthians 7:15 KJB - "But if the unbelieving depart, let him depart. ..."
​

We have therefore, seen how the very first item on the list does not support OSAS in the least. If that was the best, being the primary subject, then each falls more easily ... [next!]

 

[Steven Yeadon]

One Baptism,

I will retreat form my comment on the Book of Life, you made a point that raises genuine doubt as to my interpretation.

However, even assuming the classic OSAS verses are set aside, you have not answered my main thrust:

I see a problem now that is twofold:

1. You are elect or not, you have the Spirit of God indwelling you as an eternal deposit (Ephesians 1:14) or not, you are born again from above or not.

2. Our wills are appealed to in the bible in order to act morally and to prove our salvation. Some have taken this to mean "Do everything as if it is all on me, and know it is all on God." I once read that in a conservative, literalist Study Bible. I am wary of this argument, but I bring it up to discuss it in this thread. Could that argument be right?

 

[One Baptism]

One Baptism,

I will retreat form my comment on the Book of Life, you made a point that raises genuine doubt as to my interpretation.

However, even assuming the classic OSAS verses are set aside, you have not answered my main thrust:

I see a problem now that is twofold:

1. You are elect or not, you have the Spirit of God indwelling you as an eternal deposit (Ephesians 1:14) or not, you are born again from above or not.

2. Our wills are appealed to in the bible in order to act morally and to prove our salvation. Some have taken this to mean "Do everything as if it is all on me, and know it is all on God." I once read that in a conservative, literalist Study Bible. I am wary of this argument, but I bring it up to discuss it in this thread. Could that argument be right?

I did state "one thing at a time".

I do not see any proper scriptures given in regards as to who the "elect" is in your response. I only see a statement from yourself there. I will reply more fully when you provide the texts that you think support your present position, but to make a brief statement, the elect from eternity is Jesus Christ [Isaiah 42:1; Matthew 12:18; 1 Peter 2:6 KJB. He is the "elect" of God [the Father]. All the promises of God are yea and amen in Him. Those found to have abided in Him unto the end are the elect 'body' through faith. There's the 'rub' to OSAS. Notice:

Ephesians 1:11 KJB - In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
​

As for Ephesians 1:14 KJB, it does not say 'eternal deposit', it says:

Ephesians 1:14 KJB - Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

Ephesians 1:14 GNT TR - ος εστιν αρραβων της κληρονομιας ημων εις απολυτρωσιν της περιποιησεως εις επαινον της δοξης αυτου​

The word "eternal" is not used in the GNT TR, neither the Enlgish translation of the KJB. neither any known MSS, etc that I am aware of. It does however, speak of the "earnest" of our inheritance. This speaks to a present down payment or deposit. It doesn't mean that it cannot be taken away. The same thought is given again in 2 Corinthians 1:22, 5:5 KJB. Notice the contexts therein.

Being "born again", is not the end of the road, but the beginning of it. A new child. A new beginning. King Saul was born again of the Holy Spirit. He was also later lost:

Notice this statement then of Jesus, since being "born again" was commonly known in the OT, and taught by the Rabbis:

John 3:10 KJB - Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?​

Notice:

1 Samuel 10:6 KJB - And the Spirit of the LORD will come upon thee, and thou shalt prophesy with them, and shalt be turned into another man.

1 Samuel 10:7 KJB - And let it be, when these signs are come unto thee, that thou do as occasion serve thee; for God is with thee.

1 Samuel 10:8 KJB - And thou shalt go down before me to Gilgal; and, behold, I will come down unto thee, to offer burnt offerings, and to sacrifice sacrifices of peace offerings: seven days shalt thou tarry, till I come to thee, and shew thee what thou shalt do.

1 Samuel 10:9 KJB - And it was so, that when he had turned his back to go from Samuel, God gave him another heart: and all those signs came to pass that day.

1 Samuel 15:11 KJB - It repenteth me that I have set up Saul to be king: for he is turned back from following me, and hath not performed my commandments. And it grieved Samuel; and he cried unto the LORD all night.

1 Samuel 16:14 KJB - But the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD troubled him.

1 Chronicles 10:13 KJB - So Saul died for his transgression which he committed against the LORD, even against the word of the LORD, which he kept not, and also for asking counsel of one that had a familiar spirit, to enquire of it;
​

"Born again" is being born of the "water" [Baptism by full immersion, as in the womb] and of the Holy Spirit. This is like the first time. Notice that Adam was born of the Spirit the first time:

Genesis 1:2 KJB - And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

Genesis 1:27 KJB - So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

Genesis 2:7 KJB - And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Job 33:4 KJB - The Spirit of God hath made me, and the breath of the Almighty hath given me life.
​

Since the first birth, creation, Adam came to be by the Holy Spirit, how then did he sin and fall? Choice, freedom. Jesus Christ was born of the Holy Ghost also, see Luke 1:35 KJB, etc. Even so, the possibility existed that Jesus could have [He did not] sinned [thus He was tempted in all points as we are, yet He remained without committing sin].

I can agree with the latter statement in point one. One is either born again, or they are not. This is true. However, being "born again" does not automatically preclude a person from choosing to later leave, and so be lost. God is love, not rape. This is why it is written:

2 Peter 2:19 KJB - While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage.

2 Peter 2:20 KJB - For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.

2 Peter 2:21 KJB - For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
​

As for the second point, you may like to read a small book on this - "Steps to Christ" - Details — Steps to Christ — Ellen G. White Writings

Or you may listen to it here [notice the two other books at the top also] - FREE STC Audio Book

 

[BobRyan]

One Baptism,

I will retreat form my comment on the Book of Life, you made a point that raises genuine doubt as to my interpretation.

However, even assuming the classic OSAS verses are set aside, you have not answered my main thrust:

I see a problem now that is twofold:

1. You are elect or not, you have the Spirit of God indwelling you as an eternal deposit (Ephesians 1:14) or not, you are born again from above or not.

2. Our wills are appealed to in the bible in order to act morally and to prove our salvation. Some have taken this to mean "Do everything as if it is all on me, and know it is all on God." I once read that in a conservative, literalist Study Bible. I am wary of this argument, but I bring it up to discuss it in this thread. Could that argument be right?

The argument for free will and losing salvation is not arguing against being born again and it is not arguing that each time you sin you are lost. It is arguing for "perseverance" and as the 3 texts in the OP show - perseverance is not a robot like walk to heaven -- rather free will human beings must "persevere" as Romans 2:4-16 points out.

 

[Steven Yeadon]

The argument for free will and losing salvation is not arguing against being born again and it is not arguing that each time you sin you are lost. It is arguing for "perseverance" and as the 3 texts in the OP show - perseverance is not a robot like walk to heaven -- rather free will human beings must "persevere" as Romans 2:4-16 points out.

That is a separate issue though. There are plenty of people who claim to be Christian and perhaps may even go to church that will be rejected at the Judgment by Jesus and cast into hell. There seems no way around that given the many warnings against what many call "false Christians" or "counterfeit Christians." There are such people, evangelicals admit that. It is a downplayed doctrine though in the American Church and shouldn't be at all.

Even more downplayed in the American Church is a doctrine that we are called to confirm our salvation by our works. This is not works saves us or any such thing, but a call to persevere and do the right thing. A call to a people who must discern if they have circumcised hearts or not.

I see though that we are splitting hairs in a real way. Ultimately your argument is only different to the biblical truths accepted by many evangelical leaders by the fact you say that God has circumcised the heart of a person who eventually chooses wrong and goes to hell. It is an esoteric argument in a way compared to biblical doctrine.

However, I argue that the evangelical position that there are those who know Jesus or don't. Those who have efficacious salvation or do not. That this position makes more sense. It holds to the bible more closely, which is of paramount importance. I mean how can someone circumcised in heart act like one who never had their heart circumcised? How is God able to make us stand at the Day, and not be able to (Jude 1:24 among others)?

That said, I see I am outside of my depth and need to do a lot more research, I just backed up to reason instead of quoting scripture. That gives me pause.

I will say one last thing: Now I do not want to be a hypocrite, I will admit that I have been divisive on this board and factional at times, I must work harder on understanding and resisting those temptations. That said, the way this post worked by challenging everyone on the BB seems divisive and factional in and of itself, I say in a gentle way. I know this method of posting from having done that very same thing before on the BB, which I sorely regret.

 

[Steven Yeadon]

I will say one more thing though, I anticipate you may say I am arguing for something the bible does not outright advocate: a privileged status of those really saved vs those who think they are saved. I will answer that critique in the next day or two as I study the scriptures.

 

[Alcott]

Somebody wants to use parables to prove a point of theology? You must think Jesus was a liar, then, as he said the mustard seed is the smallest of seeds. It ain't.

in Matthew 18 that would be Jesus.

Peter comes to Jesus with a question on the doctrine of forgiveness.

Jesus answer ends with this direct instruction to Peter. 35 My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.”


Matt 18
32 Then summoning him, his lord *said to him, ‘You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me. 33 Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?’ 34 And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him. 35 My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.”

Ye or No: Was Jesus lying when he said the mustard seed is the smallest of seeds?

 

[One Baptism]

Somebody wants to use parables to prove a point of theology? You must think Jesus was a liar, then, as he said the mustard seed is the smallest of seeds. It ain't.

Ye or No: Was Jesus lying when he said the mustard seed is the smallest of seeds?

You have a misunderstanding of what Jesus said, and thus taints your question by the faulty apriori. It is because of this erroneous starting position, that places your current conclusion at its error, and current attempt to trap [just as the pharisees did to Jesus, and so too they do to His children].

1. Jesus never lied - ever [though tempted to; Hebrews 4:15 KJB]. He is the Truth [John 14:6 KJB].

2. The "seed" and its "least", or "less" "than all seeds that be in the earth", is limited in scope by the other word, "herbs" that are farmed/eaten [Matthew 13:32; Mark 4:32; Luke 11:42; Romans 14:2 KJB]. It is a category definition, thus Jesus is speaking about those seeds 'among' a given category/type [thus not including 'orchids', a type of flower]. Even that which is "sowed in his field [G68, agros]" [Matthew 13:31 KJB], ie farmland or garden [thus the "earth" that is referred to in specificity], and the word "garden" [G2779] is used speficically in Luke 13:19 KJB.

3. Jesus never said that the "mustard seed" is the "smallest of seeds" [fullstop, no further modifiers to context/category]. Just as He never said that the mustard "tree" was the greatest of all trees upon the earth [fullstop, no further modifiers to context/category]. You have said, and atheists and bible mockers have said it. Whose side are you on? [Rhetorical, just want you to think about it.]

4. Parables are given to reveal knowledge/truth, for those with eyes to see and ears to hear [ie, they chose to believe the truth]:

Matthew 13:35 KJB - That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world.

Psalms 78:2 KJB - I will open my mouth in a parable: I will utter dark sayings of old:

Psalms 78:3 KJB - Which we have heard and known, and our fathers have told us.

Psalms 78:4 KJB - We will not hide them from their children, shewing to the generation to come the praises of the LORD, and his strength, and his wonderful works that he hath done.
​

Things "had been" [past tense] "kept secret" beforehand, but the parables [present] are given to reveal those things kept in the mind of God from before:

Matthew 13:11 KJB - He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.

Matthew 13:12 KJB - For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.

Matthew 13:13 KJB - Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.

Matthew 13:14 KJB - And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:

Matthew 13:15 KJB - For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

Matthew 13:16 KJB - But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.

Acts 28:27 KJB - For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
​

Is this really the argument, position, proof, evidence, etc., that you want to use to defend the erroneous OSAS, or position that forgiveness once granted by God cannot be revoked by God?​

 

[BobRyan]

Ye or No: Was Jesus lying when he said the mustard seed is the smallest of seeds?

Where have I ever talked about mustard seeds or Jesus lying???
What was the "application" of Jesus' teaching on the mustard seed? Do you claim his own application was doctrinal error?
What was Christ's "application" of the forgiveness revoked teaching in Matthew 18? Do you claim that his application was doctrinal error?

 

[BobRyan]

I will say one more thing though, I anticipate you may say I am arguing for something the bible does not outright advocate: a privileged status of those really saved vs those who think they are saved. I will answer that critique in the next day or two as I study the scriptures.

Romans 2:13 says "God is not partial"

There is no "priv status" for those that will some day in the future accept the Gospel vs those that will not - while they are unsaved.

But of course - there is a very different status for those that do accept the Gospel