The Bible condemns OSAS doctrine.. yet some folks still believe it

[BobRyan]

That is a separate issue though. There are plenty of people who claim to be Christian and perhaps may even go to church that will be rejected at the Judgment by Jesus and cast into hell.

True.

But I am taking texts that go beyond that point - to the case of those "fully forgiven" the case of those who "stand only by their faith".

I see though that we are splitting hairs in a real way. Ultimately your argument is only different to the biblical truths accepted by many evangelical leaders by the fact you say that God has circumcised the heart of a person who eventually chooses wrong and goes to hell. It is an esoteric argument in a way compared to biblical doctrine.

I use the terms in the texts of the OP "fully forgiven" Matthew 18 and "standing by faith alone" Romans 11

However, I argue that the evangelical position that there are those who know Jesus or don't. Those who have efficacious salvation or do not. That this position makes more sense. It holds to the bible more closely,

Then you need to identify a Bible doctrine that allows the lost to be "fully forgiven of all sin" and "standing by faith alone" and yet still lost - having never been saved.

 

[Pastor_Bob]

What was Christ's "application" of the forgiveness revoked teaching in Matthew 18? Do you claim that his application was doctrinal error?

The penalty was not for his debt; the penalty was for his lack of forgiveness toward his debtors. Again, it is about forgiveness - not salvation.

 

[BobRyan]

The penalty was not for his debt; the penalty was for his lack of forgiveness toward his debtors. Again, it is about forgiveness - not salvation.

1. Does the text say "add new debt to his account and make him pay for it"??
OR does it say to return all the debt and that he should pay "all" in the context of the debt forgiven?

Which way does the text read in your opinion?

In the parable the king is not claiming to pass monetary fines on people for "unkind actions" -- rather it is setup as financial debt owed as a symbol of the sin debt that we have. Thus the return of the financial debt (symbolizes forgiveness revoked). In the parable the only financial debt available for reference is the initial one - that was fully forgiven.

2. In your previous answer you said you wanted to avoid the problem of purgatory - but that is not an exegetical solution to the chapter because it only appeals to an outside interest (outside of the parable) and as I showed - purgatory is not the only option in that forgiveness revoked teaching. (In fact I showed that given the detail in the parable - it is not even a option)

3. We probably both agree that the Gospel model I am using is perfectly consistent with the "forgiveness revoked" teaching that we find in Matthew 18. I can simply accept the text as it reads and so I do need to "fix" the text in any way.

I "hope" we can agree that all the posts trying to hold to OSAS - have had to try and find ways to "fix" Matthew 18. - by contrast.

 

[poor-in-spirit]

in the Matthew 18 teaching of Christ - He gives only one reason - only one "basis" for anyone to forgive anyone else. And that is "I forgave you ALL that debt" -- only those who HAVE been fully forgiven were even being asked to forgive others.

The teaching was not about the obligation of those who HAD NOT experienced full forgiveness - to forgive others (that would tares)

The teaching of Christ in Matthew 18 is about the obligation of those who HAVE already experienced full forgiveness.

Matt 18
32 Then summoning him, his lord *said to him, ‘You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me. 33 Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?’

Notice "in the same way" ??

The point is - that the fully forgiven person experienced it - and out of that experience would be expected to then go and do likewise "in the same way that I had mercy on you"

Please still bear with me on this vein and consider that this debtor happily accepted forgiveness without a change in his own actions. This is simply another example of unregenerate "belief" prevalent in all sects my friend since our Lord's time on earth.

Please notice in our Lord's Gospels that whenever He discussed His Gospel He never one time made it an easy believe proposition. Only last days "christians" say anything like that. Our Lord's version of true belief in every instance had life changing action directly tied to this belief. And most notably, in every instance our Lord made it clear up front what it would cost us to believe unto righteousness. He made no bones about it.

Most repackage the Gospel message to make it more palatable for the flesh, we count the costs for them just so they will acknowledge some kind of belief (like the foolish sowers we are):

Luke 14: 26 If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple. And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple. For which of you, intending to build a tower, sitteth not down first, and counteth the cost, whether he have sufficient to finish it? Lest haply, after he hath laid the foundation, and is not able to finish it, all that behold it begin to mock him, Saying, This man began to build, and was not able to finish. Or what king, going to make war against another king, sitteth not down first, and consulteth whether he be able with ten thousand to meet him that cometh against him with twenty thousand? Or else, while the other is yet a great way off, he sendeth an ambassage, and desireth conditions of peace.

So likewise, whosoever he be of you that forsaketh not all that he hath, he cannot be my disciple. Salt is good: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be seasoned? It is neither fit for the land, nor yet for the dunghill; but men cast it out. He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.

An unregenerate gospel is a cost-counting one. If one believes regardless of the costs, they are saved. The tares love the cost counting "gospel" it is right up their ally. Remember the Sower and his four believing souls. They all believed in some form but only one with ploughed soil (good ground in their heart).

Tares add religion in Christ's Name to their lives.
Wheat replace their whole life on earth with following Christ.

Which are we? Does anyone ask themselves this?

Saddest part is that this cost counting false gospel seems to be the only one mentioned in these last days.

All of the Epistles reiterate this repeatedly. Every seeming "just say you believe" passage in context shows evidence and action due to this belief. The wolves pluck these passages out of their contexts to promote a false doctrine of salvation. They do this for numbers and revenue and elevation by men (IOWs Mammon) because they are tares themselves folks.

Had the forgiven person's heart changed, he would have followed his lord's lead and forgiven others. This is the point Bob, he was a fraud. A fraud like most of Christianity is today.

Most say: just believe and you will be saved! ignoring all context of the passages they reference.

God says if you truly believe then you will lose your self esteem in this life, pick up your cross and follow Him...................

 

[Steven Yeadon]

BobRyan,

Is the Holy Spirit an eternal deposit or not? There is a position of privilege if this is simply true. Believers born again by the Spirit are different than everyone else.

 

[Pastor_Bob]

Please still bear with me on this vein and consider that this debtor happily accepted forgiveness without a change in his own actions. This is simply another example of unregenerate "belief" prevalent in all sects my friend since our Lord's time on earth.

Thought provoking.

 

[Alcott]

Where have I ever talked about mustard seeds or Jesus lying???
What was the "application" of Jesus' teaching on the mustard seed? Do you claim his own application was doctrinal error?

That's what I was looking for here-- parables have an "application." If you go outside that application and try to prove finer doctrinal points, you can get all kinds of cultic doctrines.Did the farmer who planted a vineyard actually have the weeds planed 'behind his back' and didn't know about it till his workers told him?

 

[Pastor_Bob]

1. Does the text say "add new debt to his account and make him pay for it"??
OR does it say to return all the debt and that he should pay "all" in the context of the debt forgiven?

Which way does the text read in your opinion?

In the context of forgiveness, it was his lack of forgiveness that caused the punishment, not his original debt.

God can and does forgive but He does not always cancel His judgement.
Psalms 99:8 Thou answeredst them, O LORD our God: thou wast a God that forgavest them, though thou tookest vengeance of their inventions.

We probably both agree that the Gospel model I am using is perfectly consistent with the "forgiveness revoked" teaching that we find in Matthew 18.

I do not agree that forgiveness can be "revoked." There are too many passages that clearly teach that sins forgiven are gone - never to be remembered or revoked.

• Psalm 103:12 As far as the east is from the west, so far hath he removed our transgressions from us.
• Isaiah 43:25 I, even I, am he that blotteth out thy transgressions for mine own sake, and will not remember thy sins.
• Jeremiah 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
• Acts 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;
• Hebrews 8:12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
• Hebrews 10:17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

So, there is no such things as God "revoking" His forgiveness once He has extended it to us.

I "hope" we can agree that all the posts trying to hold to OSAS - have had to try and find ways to "fix" Matthew 18. - by contrast.

No, sir. Matthew 18 isn't in need of "fixing." It is a parable teaching the great truth of forgiveness toward your fellow man and that an absence of that forgiveness will result in severe consequences.

 

[Revmitchell]

The Bible condemns OSAS doctrine

Please show us, based on your title, where anywhere in scripture any persons discussed osas and anyone such as Jesus Paul or any of the authors of scripture soundly defeated that doctrine.

 

[BobRyan]

In the context of forgiveness, it was his lack of forgiveness that caused the punishment, not his original debt.
.

Certainly I agree with that.

in the narrative Christ gives - the debt owed is given as some amount of money , no reason is given for that financial debt but we take it to symbolize our debt for sin.

So a parable updated for today "The billionaire invited a person to his home and that person accidently broke a 500 million dollar antique while trying to steal it" whereupon the owner can either demand payment or can simply forgive the debt. The guest pleads for mercy the home owner forgives the debt. Then finds out that the person forgiven is about to take someone to court for accidentally breaking a lawn sprinkler head in his own yard.

In both of these examples (Matthew 18 and the one I just made up) the response is the same - the one who initially forgave the massive monetary debt says that the person must "repay all".

Not "repay this one additional amount" because in fact no new "amount" is even given.

Matt 18
24 When he had begun to settle them, one who owed him ten thousand talents was brought to him. 25 But since he did not have the means to repay, his lord commanded him to be sold, along with his wife and children and all that he had, and repayment to be made

32 Then summoning him, his lord *said to him, ‘You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me. 33 Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?’ 34 And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him

The problem is not presented as "I am willing to forgive X-debt but not X+Y-debt because I am all tapped out".

Rather "I forgave X-debt and you did not go and forgive others as I forgave you -- so fine - you must now repay all"

 

[BobRyan]

God can and does forgive but He does not always cancel His judgement.
.

I agree that he does not always cancel His judgment -- except when He says He does for example "I forgave you all that debt" specifically points to the case where God has given forgiveness. And Christ speaks to his own followers as those who have also been forgiven and so for that reason alone are under obligation to forgive just as in fact they have been forgiven all.

 

[BobRyan]

I do not agree that forgiveness can be "revoked." There are too many passages that clearly teach that sins forgiven are gone - never to be remembered or revoked.
.

No scripture says God is restricted from doing as Christ proposes in Matthew 18.

For example Ezekiel 18 shows the very same principle as Matthew 18 "repay all" - after being on the saved side of the fence -- later being put over to the lost side and none of the prior history/benefits being applicable at all.

 

[BobRyan]

Matt 18
24 When he had begun to settle them, one who owed him ten thousand talents was brought to him. 25 But since he did not have the means to repay, his lord commanded him to be sold, along with his wife and children and all that he had, and repayment to be made

32 Then summoning him, his lord *said to him, ‘You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me. 33 Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?’ 34 And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him

there is no such things as God "revoking" His forgiveness once He has extended it to us.
No, sir. Matthew 18 isn't in need of "fixing." It is a parable teaching the great truth of forgiveness toward your fellow man and that an absence of that forgiveness will result in severe consequences.

And that the "severe consequences" are as stated by Christ as "doing the SAME to you if..."

Matt 18
34 And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him. 35 My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.”

No, sir. Matthew 18 isn't in need of "fixing.

Certainly in my POV - it is not in need of "fixing" at all.

 

[Revmitchell]

Matt 18
24 When he had begun to settle them, one who owed him ten thousand talents was brought to him. 25 But since he did not have the means to repay, his lord commanded him to be sold, along with his wife and children and all that he had, and repayment to be made

32 Then summoning him, his lord *said to him, ‘You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me. 33 Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?’ 34 And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him




And that the "sever consequences" are as stated by Christ

Matt 18
34 And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him

You read too much into that parable. That parable is simply about being willing to forgive. Whether or not one can lose their salvation is not in view. You start out with the view one can lost their salvation so you read that into that passage. That is not the context at all.

 

[utilyan]

Please show us, based on your title, where anywhere in scripture any persons discussed osas and anyone such as Jesus Paul or any of the authors of scripture soundly defeated that doctrine.

Thats common sense, Athiest don't go around successfully exorcising demons and doing miracles in the name of Jesus Christ. Neither would they call Christ "LORD, LORD"

Matthew 7

22“Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ 23“And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.’



Matthew 12
24But when the Pharisees heard this, they said, “This man casts out demons only by Beelzebul the ruler of the demons.”

25And knowing their thoughts Jesus said to them, “Any kingdom divided against itself is laid waste; and any city or house divided against itself will not stand. 26“If Satan casts out Satan, he is divided against himself; how then will his kingdom stand?

I'm adding Matthew 12 in case you get idea it was the devil driving out the devil. To drive out demons they would have had to been 100% saved Christians, believers of Jesus Christ.

 

[atpollard]

To drive out demons they would have had to been 100% saved Christians, believers of Jesus Christ.

Matthew 7:23 “And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.’

That's a pretty nifty trick ... to become a "100% saved Christians, believers of Jesus Christ" and yet Jesus Christ never knew them? How does this salvatation apart from Christ work?

I always thought it was more like:

Acts 19:13-16 [NASB]

13 But also some of the Jewish exorcists, who went from place to place, attempted to name over those who had the evil spirits the name of the Lord Jesus, saying, “I adjure you by Jesus whom Paul preaches.” 14 Seven sons of one Sceva, a Jewish chief priest, were doing this. 15 And the evil spirit answered and said to them, “I recognize Jesus, and I know about Paul, but who are you?” 16 And the man, in whom was the evil spirit, leaped on them and subdued all of them and overpowered them, so that they fled out of that house naked and wounded.​

 

[BobRyan]

You read too much into that parable.

Everyone agrees that the huge debt owed is our debt of sin.. this is not even debatable
Everyone agrees that Christ speaks to his own followers as those fully forgiven - that is not even debatable
Everyone agrees that in the teaching of Christ "the basis" for our forgiving others - is that we have first experienced full forgiveness for our debt of sin - by God
Everyone agrees that at the end of the parable Christ said to his own followers - "So shall My Father do the SAME to each one of you IF"

This is not even questioned

The question is what does it mean to "Do the SAME" to each one of you -- as Christ states it

 

[BobRyan]

That parable is simply about being willing to forgive. Whether or not one can lose their salvation is not in view.

That is an a priori preference you are taking to the text at the start (unless you can show that the sinner that is condemned to "repay all" his debt is in fact doing it in heaven or in some way not in the hell that is set as the "wages of sin" Romans 6:23)

 

[BobRyan]

BobRyan,

Is the Holy Spirit an eternal deposit or not? .

The Holy Spirit is a person and the NT says He can be "grieved"
The Psalmist pleads "take not Thy Holy Spirit from me"
God said "My Spirit shall not always strive with man"

Ezekiel 18 and Matthew 18 both describe the scenario where forgiveness received - is fully revoked.

your responses to Matthew 18, and Romans 11 and 1Cor 6 as listed in the OP has been to look to other texts that do not make those very pointed statements. And I certainly agree that not every text in the Bible makes those same pointed statements that we find the the examples given in the OP.

 

[BobRyan]

Matthew 7:23 “And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.’

That's a pretty nifty trick ... to become a "100% saved Christians, believers of Jesus Christ" and yet Jesus Christ never knew them?

And it is described fully in Ezekiel 18... what does that chapter say "will be remembered no more"??