The Bible condemns OSAS doctrine.. yet some folks still believe it

[Revmitchell]

That is an a priori preference you are taking to the text at the start (unless you can show that the sinner that is condemned to "repay all" his debt is in fact doing it in heaven or in some way not in the hell that is set as the "wages of sin" Romans 6:23)

Uh no I am taking the text at face value. You add salvation to it. That is called Eisegesis.

 

[BobRyan]

Choose the Bible - as your basis for doctrine

Matt 18
32 Then summoning him, his lord *said to him, ‘You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me. 33 Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?’ 34 And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him. 35 My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.”

Revmitchell said: ↑
That parable is simply about being willing to forgive. Whether or not one can lose their salvation is not in view.

That is an a priori preference you are taking to the text at the start (unless you can show that the sinner that is condemned to "repay all" his debt is in fact doing it in heaven or in some way not in the hell that is set as the "wages of sin" Romans 6:23)

Uh no I am taking the text at face value. You add salvation to it. That is called Eisegesis.

Let's start with the obvious - there are no "repay all your debt to God yourself -- because that is what the Gospel is all about" sort of texts that or I have posted - because we both know they don't exist.

 

[Revmitchell]

Choose the Bible - as your basis for doctrine

You know, scripture is always the basis for my doctrine. This arrogant post only works to divide and create animosity. since you do not have the maturity level to have a conversation on doctrine without such caustic posts I will pass and leave you in your misery.

 

[Revmitchell]

↑
The Bible condemns OSAS doctrine
Please show us, based on your title, where anywhere in scripture any persons discussed osas and anyone such as Jesus Paul or any of the authors of scripture soundly defeated that doctrine.

Since this has not produced any response it is obvious the title to the thread is more like click bait than it is reality. Title is not debunked.

 

[atpollard]

And it is described fully in Ezekiel 18... what does that chapter say "will be remembered no more"??

Ezekiel 18:24 NASB “But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity and does according to all the abominations that a wicked man does, will he live? All his righteous deeds which he has done will not be remembered for his treachery which he has committed and his sin which he has committed; for them he will die."
​

Righteousness does not automatically mean "saved" ... remember:

Matthew 5:20 NASB "For I say to you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven."
​

The Pharisees had a righteousness that would not get them into the kingdom of heaven ... so too, the righteousness of the man in Ezekiel 18 who turns away.

Second point, it was his righteous deeds that would not be remembered. However Jesus did not say "I don't remember any of those good works that you did in my name." Jesus said "I NEVER KNEW YOU!"

So Ezekiel 18 has nothing to say about Matthew 7:23 and a Christian that has never been known by Christ is an absurd suggestion. Tares can LOOK like wheat for a little while, but a tare was never once a wheat.

 

[BobRyan]

Ezekiel 18:24 NASB “But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity and does according to all the abominations that a wicked man does, will he live? All his righteous deeds which he has done will not be remembered for his treachery which he has committed and his sin which he has committed; for them he will die."
​

Righteousness does not automatically mean "saved" ... remember:
.

In Ezek 18 one group lives -- the other one dies.

All the righteous live in Ezek 18
All the wicked die.

That "Truth" is only reflected in saved-vs-lost because in this world both the wicked and the righteous die.'

Thus as Ezek 18:4 says "the soul that sins shall die"

What is more the chapter makes it clear that this is the judgment of God - that man does not approve of

 

[BobRyan]

Since this has not produced any response it is obvious the title to the thread is more like click bait than it is reality. Title is not debunked.

Until you read the actual scriptures in the OP. It is in the "Bible details" that the doctrine stands or falls. Simply ignoring them or electing to "look at different texts instead" is not sound Bible foundation for doctrine.

 

[atpollard]

In Ezek 18 one group lives -- the other one dies.

So what does that have to do with Matthew 7:23 and the silly claim that people who Jesus NEVER KNEW were somehow saved?

All the righteous live in Ezek 18
All the wicked die.

So what does that have to do with Matthew 7:23 and the silly claim that people can be saved without Jesus and then loose their Jesus-free salvation?

That "Truth" is only reflected in saved-vs-lost because in this world both the wicked and the righteous die.'

Prove it. Saying it doesn't make it so. The issue is the claim that people that JESUS NEVER KNEW are being treated as once saved. Where is salvation apart from Christ taught in scripture?

Thus as Ezek 18:4 says "the soul that sins shall die"
What is more the chapter makes it clear that this is the judgment of God - that man does not approve of.

Which again has no impact on Jesus claim "I never knew you" (Matthew 7:23) since Ezekiel says their "good deeds" will not be remembered because of their sins, not that God would not remember "them".

 

[Walter]

I have a question, although I have not read the entire thread yet. In John’s Gospel, Christ tells the apostles at the Last Supper to remain in his love. He adds that if we keep his commandments we will remain in his love. But he who does not remain in his love is "cast forth as a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire, and burned" John 15:6. Now, if salvation cannot be lost, why would Jesus feel the need to tell anyone to remain in his love? It would be like locking a person in a closet and telling them to remain there. If they are unable to leave, it is senseless to ask them to remain.

In my thinking Jesus told his disciples to remain in his love because just as we enter freely into a relationship with Christ, we are free to leave him.

 

[atpollard]

In my thinking Jesus told his disciples to remain in his love because just as we enter freely into a relationship with Christ, we are free to leave him.

It sounds reasonable. But just for fun, try to find someone who chose to defy the will of God and succeeded?

Could Saul have said 'No.' when he was laying on the ground, blind outside Damascus. Reread the story, does God sound like he was asking Paul or telling him?

Moses clearly didn't want to go back to Egypt. So how did that end? Whose will was done?

Jonah actively and openly refused to go to Ninevah to preach a warning. So in the end, did Jonah preach a warning in Ninevah?

Jesus chose the twelve disciples and made a huge deal that he had lost none of those that the Father had given him ... except Judah (the son of perdition, and a devil) ... who we are told was only lost to fulfill scripture.

So where are these people who tell God "No"?
You would think that if everyone has a choice to quit at any time, then there should be examples in scripture.

 

[Yeshua1]

Choose the Bible - as your basis for doctrine

Matt 18
32 Then summoning him, his lord *said to him, ‘You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me. 33 Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?’ 34 And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him. 35 My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.”

Romans 11
19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. 22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

1 Cor 6
9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, 10 nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified




Well first of all I agree that we do not lose salvation each time we sin after we are saved/born-again. But that is not the issue in Matthew 18 (for example). As we both probably know.

In Matthew 18 we have "full forgiveness" I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded

Matt 18
32 Then summoning him, his lord *said to him, ‘You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me. 33 Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?’ 34 And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him. 35 My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.”

In Matthew 18 we have full "forgiveness revoked" not merely the debt for the new transgression but ALL the previous debt.

34 And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him

And then worst of all we have Christ speaking outside of the parable to His fully forgiven followers saying this --


Matt 18
35 My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.”

"The SAME" in this case - refers to the "full forgiveness revoked" act in vs 34.. as we both see.

That is an irrefutable problem for OSAS.



Here is a point where apparently we both agree. vs 35 is very obvious in referring to the action of vs 34 this is irrefutable and would be taken gladly if one did not have an a priori directive that would not allow it.





Before we got too far from the text.

Matt 18
34 And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him. 35 My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.”

"Do the same" can only reference the "doing" that we see in vs 34. This is irrefutable



not true at all.

We can for the sake of clarity - change the text to make it purgatory this way.

Matt 18

The servant owed a few weeks wages..34 And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him and then let him out with all debts settled - restored to favor.

But the chapter says the servant owed more than it was even possible for him to pay and still live - more than a life time.

This in the actual text "repay all" would be fatal. You have "inserted" the idea that possibly the story is leading the reader to think that it was survivable. But the chapter is very careful to point out that it was more than he could pay in his lifetime.

Your suggestion requires that we ignore that key detail. The sin debt of the sinner is more than the sinner can afford to pay -- he will not survive. The "I forgave you ALL" is a reference for us - to God forgiving us for all our sins. None of this is of the form " or you could also go to heaven if you pay your own sins". No "nice heaven" is being offered even in symbol to the servant who has his forgiveness revoked. The parable only offers him torture..

; because, to follow this example, the man was only in torment "till he should pay all that was due unto him."



To be honest nothing in the actual chapter even remotely directs the reader that direction.

We could for the sake of clarity edit the chapter to insert the idea you have suggested.

33 and so his fellow servants were unhappy with him - so also was the king and he had to endure their displeasure for a while. 34 So you too if you do not forgive others will have to endure the unhappy feelings of others for a short while.

Nothing at all of that sort is actually in the chapter as we both probably know.

The difference is I don't have a framework for the Gospel and salvation that would require me to try to re-imagine the text out to that extreme level so as to assist me in much-needed inserted inference.

Baptists, unlike Sda, based our theology upon Sola Scriptura!
Jesus stated that he will keep secured forever ALL those he saves, was he a liar, or telling the truth?

 

[Yeshua1]

I think you are trying to quote some text of scripture but still can't get beyond quoting yourself.

Would it be too much to ask that you go to the actual Bible and quote it and then we can discuss it?

I hate to have to keep reminding you that you are still merely quoting yourself.

John 6:37-40,

 

[Steven Yeadon]

I have a question, although I have not read the entire thread yet. In John’s Gospel, Christ tells the apostles at the Last Supper to remain in his love. He adds that if we keep his commandments we will remain in his love. But he who does not remain in his love is "cast forth as a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire, and burned" John 15:6. Now, if salvation cannot be lost, why would Jesus feel the need to tell anyone to remain in his love? It would be like locking a person in a closet and telling them to remain there. If they are unable to leave, it is senseless to ask them to remain.

In my thinking Jesus told his disciples to remain in his love because just as we enter freely into a relationship with Christ, we are free to leave him.

I have said the following twice, but no one has debated it.

I see a problem now that is twofold:

1. You are elect or not, you have the Spirit of God indwelling you as an eternal deposit (Ephesians 1:14) or not, you are born again from above or not.

2. Our wills are appealed to in the bible in order to act morally and to prove our salvation.

Some have taken this to mean "Do everything as if it is all on me, and know it is all on God." I once read that in a conservative, literalist Study Bible. Could that argument be right?

 

[Yeshua1]

BobRyan,

Is the Holy Spirit an eternal deposit or not? There is a position of privilege if this is simply true. Believers born again by the Spirit are different than everyone else.

All who are saved have been translated from the Kingdom of Satan into Kingdom of Jesus, and the Holy Spirit seals us forever!

 

[Yeshua1]

Choose the Bible - as your basis for doctrine

Matt 18
32 Then summoning him, his lord *said to him, ‘You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me. 33 Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?’ 34 And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him. 35 My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.”








Let's start with the obvious - there are no "repay all your debt to God yourself -- because that is what the Gospel is all about" sort of texts that or I have posted - because we both know they don't exist.

Deal with John 6:37-40!

 

[Wesley Briggman]

Choose the Bible - as your basis for doctrine

Well first of all I agree that we do not lose salvation each time we sin after we are saved/born-again.

How/when is salvation lost? Can it be restored? If not, why not? If so, is there a numerical "limit" on losing and restoring one's salvation?

Please include scripture to support your position/s.

 

[BobRyan]

Choose the Bible - as your basis for doctrine

Matt 18
32 Then summoning him, his lord *said to him, ‘You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me. 33 Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?’ 34 And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him. 35 My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.”

Romans 11
19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. 22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

1 Cor 6
9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, 10 nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified

How/when is salvation lost? Can it be restored? If not, why not? If so, is there a numerical "limit" on losing and restoring one's salvation?

Please include scripture to support your position/s.

You seem to be posting as if I am writing the Bible texts given above and am doing market research to see if I should include them in the Bible.

 

[BobRyan]

Deal with John 6:37-40!

Correction -- Mathew wrote Matthew 18. Were you wanting him to "deal" with John 6??

 

[BobRyan]

Choose the Bible - as your basis for doctrine

Matt 18
32 Then summoning him, his lord *said to him, ‘You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me. 33 Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?’ 34 And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him. 35 My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.”

Romans 11
19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. 22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

1 Cor 6
9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, 10 nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified

John 6:37-40,

Thank you for that contribution

 

[BobRyan]

Baptists, unlike Sda, based our theology upon Sola Scriptura!

Here is a good thread to test that idea.