SavedByGrace
Well-Known Member
Okay, you guys who are arguing about the KJV, just stop it. This thread is about the 元訳 (Motoyaku).
humble apologies, Sir!
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The Bible is Preserved in Japanese
- Thread starter John of Japan
- Start date
humble apologies, Sir!
Actually, to be serious for a moment, he included the Gospel in his teaching, though it had too much Catholicism added on. He said, "I ordered them all to ask God's pardon publicly for the sins of their past life, and to do this with a loud voice and in the presence of their neighbors still hostile to the Christian religion, in order to touch the hearts of the heathen" (450 Stories from Church History, by J. Vernon Jacobs,134).
Well most Catholics include the gospel in their teachings but always add more to it. I've listened to many James white debates with Catholics and they always say that you need to put faith and trust in Christ and he will save you but then they go much further and add works and such.
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SavedByGrace
Well-Known Member
As he belonged to the Society of Jesus, I doubt very much if he preached anything like the "Evangelical Gospel" of Jesus Christ, salvation through repentence and faith, apart from any works?
That's kind of what I said, isn't it?
SavedByGrace
Well-Known Member
well, you meantioned him preaching the "Gospel" (which was not really any "gospel"), which would not be in the sense that we know it. He was VERY Roman Catholic, under Ignatius of Loyola. May have been moralists, but not "born again" in the NT sense.
He taught that Christ died for our sins, and that He rose again. That's the Gospel. He just added various works to it, and that is heresy.
SavedByGrace
Well-Known Member
indeed. I think that even most of the "popes" said things like that, with their own twist.
George Antonios
Well-Known Member
Just read around what I've been called. Does that automatically invalidate the non-KJVOs?
And the issue is no laughing matter. You have a bunch literally mocking the word of God.
How about you get indignant for him?
He did, in the various manuscripts and other original languages documents!
Before and after the KJv also!
How is not holding to KJVO error equates to mocking the Bible?
Geneva before that!
Well, folks, I may not get back to this until Monday, and it could be closed by then. I've enjoyed my little exercise in logic and the theology of preservation. I did my best to be respectful to the Word of God, including the KJV (which I love and read and preach). I'm a little surprised that no one challenged my purposefully illogical statements.
Now, if you haven't figured out what I was doing with this thread, perhaps you should frequent another forum. But honestly, I think I made some valid points. And if you are KJVO and didn't like my thread, here's my main point: give me criteria for deciding what version a missionary or national should use in another country, especially if that country does not have what you would call a KJV equivalent (and Japan does not). If you can't come up with an answer (and no KJVO person ever has to me), give it up.
And there were secondary points, too, but I'll leave you to it on those.
では、また。さよなら。(Catch you later. Bye.)
Now, if you haven't figured out what I was doing with this thread, perhaps you should frequent another forum. But honestly, I think I made some valid points. And if you are KJVO and didn't like my thread, here's my main point: give me criteria for deciding what version a missionary or national should use in another country, especially if that country does not have what you would call a KJV equivalent (and Japan does not). If you can't come up with an answer (and no KJVO person ever has to me), give it up.
And there were secondary points, too, but I'll leave you to it on those.
では、また。さよなら。(Catch you later. Bye.)
Closed until Monday.
This thread is open again.
Pointing out problems with human, non-scriptural KJV-only reasoning/teaching would not be "literally mocking the word of God" as you incorrectly allege.
atpollard
Well-Known Member
Proverbs 30:5The inspiration and the preservation of Scripture only pertains to the Japanese Motoyaku version (元訳). The Motoyaku says so in Prov. 30:5, 神の言はみないさぎよし神は彼を頼むものの盾なり。That proves it beyond the shadow of a doubt. If you can't read this, tough. You don't have the Word of God in your language. And you should learn to read classical Japanese if you really want to know what God says.
You see, God loves the Japanese people over all people groups on the whole Earth. And He invented the Japanese language especially for the Word of God to be translated into it in a perfect way. The Motoyaku is perfect above any originals. Call me MYO--Motoyaku Only.
神の言はみないさぎよし神は彼を頼むものの盾なり。
Kami no gen wa mina isagiyoshi kami wa kare o tanomu mono no tatenari.
God's Word is not seen Sagiyoshi God is a shield for what he asks for.
What is “Sagiyoshi”?
[Proverbs 30:5 NASB] 5 Every word of God is tested; He is a shield to those who take refuge in Him.
[Proverbs 30:5 KJV] 5 Every word of God [is] pure: he [is] a shield unto them that put their trust in him.
[Proverbs 30:5 YLT] 5 Every saying of God [is] tried, A shield He [is] to those trusting in Him.
[Proverbs 30:5 DBY] 5 Every word of God is pure: he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him.
[Proverbs 30:5 LXX] 5 πάντες λόγοι θεοῦ πεπυρωμένοι ὑπερασπίζει δὲ αὐτὸς τῶν εὐλαβουμένων αὐτόν
Here you go, courtesy of Google Traslate:
Japanese
神の言はみないさぎよし神は彼を頼むものの盾なり。
German
Ich sehe das Wort Gottes nicht Sagiyoshi Gott ist ein Schutzschild für das, was er verlangt.
Okay, to continue. Here's a story for you, kids.
A fellow missionary who we'll call Bill went to a church that followed the "Great Man" Peter Ruckman. The pastor had learned from the Great Man that there was a "KJV in Japanese." So the pastor asked Bill if his church used that Japanese KJV. Bill correctly informed the pastor that no, the Great Man was wrong, there is not a KJV in Japanese. Well, the pastor was incensed--angry as a hornet in a beehive. Bill was soundly rebuked, and of course got no missionary support out of that church.
I'm here to say that there is no "Japanese KJV." The Great Man was wrong, dead wrong. He had probably been told about the Classical Japanese Bible (文語訳聖書, Bungoyaku Seisho). Now, that is the revision of the NT from Nestle's Greek NT of the glorious Motoyaku, and it can still be bought in Japan (alas!). So there is actually a small (very small) Bungoyaku Only movement in Japan. I have a missionary friend (now in Heaven) named Richard who was actually KJVO in English, but used the Shinkaiyaku (新改訳, like the NASB) in Japan because it was the most conservative version. Alas, he never did take to my Motoyaku Only belief. At any rate, he had one of those Bungoyaku Only heretics in his church to preach, and strictly commanded him not to speak on the Bible translation issue--but he did, and was never invited back. You see, the Classical Onlyists cause huge trouble in Japan. Now if everyone would only accept the Motoyaku as the preserved Word of God in Japanese, we'd all get along better. (I must crusade harder! Forget soul winning, we must have the right Bible version or all is lost. God can't help us if we don't get this right. God is so weak that we humans can "corrupt" His Word.)
Another follower of the Great Man's teaching that there was a Japanese KJV came to our island of Hokkaido and preached that there was a Japanese KJV, because the Great Man said so. Well, my colleague sat him down and showed him that the Classical Bible was not based on the Received Text in the NT, so now the rookie missionary had a problem. How could he preach the true Gospel (which must be from the KJV or no one gets saved, he thought) if he didn't have one. He called his pastor, who told him: put a KJV 1611 on the pulpit, and preach from the Shinkaiyaku. Thus the power of the KJV will leach over into the Shinkaiyaku and everything will be all right.
Oh, by the way, that man got into moral trouble and left the field. See how important it is to stick to the Motoyaku? Only the right version can keep us from moral failure. All the rest are New Age Bibles, and you know how wicked they are. It is impossible to do right and live right if you are reading one of those.
A fellow missionary who we'll call Bill went to a church that followed the "Great Man" Peter Ruckman. The pastor had learned from the Great Man that there was a "KJV in Japanese." So the pastor asked Bill if his church used that Japanese KJV. Bill correctly informed the pastor that no, the Great Man was wrong, there is not a KJV in Japanese. Well, the pastor was incensed--angry as a hornet in a beehive. Bill was soundly rebuked, and of course got no missionary support out of that church.
I'm here to say that there is no "Japanese KJV." The Great Man was wrong, dead wrong. He had probably been told about the Classical Japanese Bible (文語訳聖書, Bungoyaku Seisho). Now, that is the revision of the NT from Nestle's Greek NT of the glorious Motoyaku, and it can still be bought in Japan (alas!). So there is actually a small (very small) Bungoyaku Only movement in Japan. I have a missionary friend (now in Heaven) named Richard who was actually KJVO in English, but used the Shinkaiyaku (新改訳, like the NASB) in Japan because it was the most conservative version. Alas, he never did take to my Motoyaku Only belief. At any rate, he had one of those Bungoyaku Only heretics in his church to preach, and strictly commanded him not to speak on the Bible translation issue--but he did, and was never invited back. You see, the Classical Onlyists cause huge trouble in Japan. Now if everyone would only accept the Motoyaku as the preserved Word of God in Japanese, we'd all get along better. (I must crusade harder! Forget soul winning, we must have the right Bible version or all is lost. God can't help us if we don't get this right. God is so weak that we humans can "corrupt" His Word.)
Another follower of the Great Man's teaching that there was a Japanese KJV came to our island of Hokkaido and preached that there was a Japanese KJV, because the Great Man said so. Well, my colleague sat him down and showed him that the Classical Bible was not based on the Received Text in the NT, so now the rookie missionary had a problem. How could he preach the true Gospel (which must be from the KJV or no one gets saved, he thought) if he didn't have one. He called his pastor, who told him: put a KJV 1611 on the pulpit, and preach from the Shinkaiyaku. Thus the power of the KJV will leach over into the Shinkaiyaku and everything will be all right.
Oh, by the way, that man got into moral trouble and left the field. See how important it is to stick to the Motoyaku? Only the right version can keep us from moral failure. All the rest are New Age Bibles, and you know how wicked they are. It is impossible to do right and live right if you are reading one of those.
Sure would have been nice to have had Google, back when I was in Germany - some 50 years ago.
Sometimes I did wonder what was being said about us.
Okay - two quick stories
1) I had a secretary -She was a German native (and was a tween durring WWII) during lunch one day - her friend came in to chit chat. After her friend left I asked why they spoke in English - seeing they were both German. Mrs Muller stated they did not want me to think they were talking about me. How sweet that was!
2) A lady in our church was involved in a vehicle collision. The other party was a German women. When the German police the lady immediately started to tell the Poloize, from her point of view as to what had happened. -- Well, My friend then told the Poloize her side of the story - you see, my friend, though a native German, was married to a US Air Force Member.! (should be noted that the other German lady just assumed my friend was Americian since we have different license plates on our cars)