The Biblical Atonement (continued 3)

[JonC]

JonC simply rejects neh. 8
8 So they read in the book in the law of God distinctly, and gave the sense, and caused them to understand the reading.

and Lk24;
25 Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken:

26 Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory?

27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

Exactly. It does not say they added to Scrioture what was not there to make sence of it BUT that they understood the reading.

What you do is reject Scripture (the text) in favor of theorizing about Scripture. That is the wrong approach.

How can you test the theory that Chrust died instead of us? You can't with Scripture.

What you are doing, unintentionally I'm sure, is the same that the Jewish leaders did in Christ's time. You are using Scripture to support your understanding rather than relying on Scripture to derive an understanding.

 

[JonC]

Let me ask you, does Scripture truly make no sense to you without adding to it (without "connecting the dots")? Can you really not understand Scripture except through the lens of Penal Substitution Theory?

If that is the only way you can accept Scripture, then be faithful where you are. Share the gospel of Christ in and out of season. I pray you will continue to grow and one day see Scripture as complete, perfect, and without the need of our help. If not, that is fine as well. But you are missing so much spiritual truth that is concealed by Penal Substitution Theory.

I do not ignore the History of Redemption as progressively revealed as you apparently do. Scripture is complete and perfect right now, I do not have to ascend to another level. The idea is to grow in grace and knowledge, to present the whole Christ as the Divine substitute as the last Adam.[/QUOTE]
I do not ignore Scripture from Genesis to Revelation. But I do ignore what you seem to be pointing to as "progressive" revelation. When you rely on the Reformers (and by necessity, RCC doctrine reformed) then you are adding to Scripture.

I'm not talking about ascending to another level. I'm talking about sticking with the Word of God, at least for such vital doctrines

You do realize that you are unable to point to a passage that teaches Christ suffered God's wrath, much less states it. In fact, Scripture teaches and states that it is an abomination to substitute the righteous for the unrighteous.

Do you know those passages? Of course you don't, otherwise you would not hold Penal Substitution Theory as correct because you do have a heart for God's Word. This is why I am asking you to study Scripture without studying leaders you choose to read. Ditch the Reformers, ditch reformed RCC doctrine....at least for awhile. Stick with Scripture only, setting aside reading into it...."connecting the dots" with lines of theory. If you do, I suspect God will lead you away from elemental things and into the true meat of His Word.

 

[Iconoclast]

Exactly. It does not say they added to Scrioture what was not there to make sence of it BUT that they understood the reading.

What you do is reject Scripture (the text) in favor of theorizing about Scripture. That is the wrong approach.

How can you test the theory that Chrust died instead of us? You can't with Scripture.

What you are doing, unintentionally I'm sure, is the same that the Jewish leaders did in Christ's time. You are using Scripture to support your understanding rather than relying on Scripture to derive an understanding.

I cannot make a blind man see a rainbow

 

[Iconoclast]

I do not ignore the History of Redemption as progressively revealed as you apparently do. Scripture is complete and perfect right now, I do not have to ascend to another level. The idea is to grow in grace and knowledge, to present the whole Christ as the Divine substitute as the last Adam.

I do not ignore Scripture from Genesis to Revelation. But I do ignore what you seem to be pointing to as "progressive" revelation. When you rely on the Reformers (and by necessity, RCC doctrine reformed) then you are adding to Scripture.

I'm not talking about ascending to another level. I'm talking about sticking with the Word of God, at least for such vital doctrines

You do realize that you are unable to point to a passage that teaches Christ suffered God's wrath, much less states it. In fact, Scripture teaches and states that it is an abomination to substitute the righteous for the unrighteous. Do you know those passages?[/QUOTE]
My friend, it is you who Reject God's plan, not me...you are not allowed to see it for some reason...MM, and all the others see it.
All the reformers saw it, modern teachers see it.

The fact that those outside of Christ get judgment without mercy is clear....You have not once answered the question...what happened to the sin of the elect...
where did it Go? how can the penalty due, be paid?
How is God the just and the justifier? you have no answer, but to glibly repeat general ideas...PSA. is the answer to the broken law of God being paid, our sins being redeemed, then justly forgiven when the Just died for the unjust, once for all time.

Your ideas strip the cross of its central meaning.

 

[agedman]

agedman,


At The Cross

24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

And this is very true.

Yet, can the unclean make the unclean clean?

PSA theory presents that God’s wrath was poured out upon the Son, for God had to punish. Therefore, God perceived the Son as unclean. At that point the Son could not be what that passage states.

Remove The Who, why and demand of wrath, and that verse is valid even to the believing thief.

I wonder if Roman records will ever be uncovered that we might learn of that man.

 

[agedman]

I cannot make a blind man see a rainbow

Interesting story about a blind man
STORY BEHIND THE SONG: A look ‘Beyond the Sunset’

 

[Iconoclast]

"JonC

You do realize that you are unable to point to a passage that teaches Christ suffered God's wrath, much less states it. In fact, Scripture teaches and states that it is an abomination to substitute the righteous for the unrighteous.

nope;
21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

[QUOTE]Do you know those passages? Of course you don't,[/QUOTE]
The passages you ignore at your own peril.

[QUOTE]otherwise you would not hold Penal Substitution Theory as correct because you do have a heart for God's Word. This is why I am asking you to study Scripture without studying leaders you choose to read. Ditch the Reformers, ditch reformed RCC doctrine....at least for awhile. [/QUOTE]
They all saw it, to a man..

Stick with Scripture only, setting aside reading into it...."connecting the dots" with lines of theory. If you do, I suspect God will lead you away from elemental things and into the true meat of His Word.

I believe once again that you believe that, but I have been following scripture to get where I am, and all is well.made seven solid gospel presentations down between Baton Rouge, and Houston today.

 

[Iconoclast]

And this is very true.

Yet, can the unclean make the unclean clean?

PSA theory presents that God’s wrath was poured out upon the Son, for God had to punish. Therefore, God perceived the Son as unclean. At that point the Son could not be what that passage states.

Remove The Who, why and demand of wrath, and that verse is valid even to the believing thief.

I wonder if Roman records will ever be uncovered that we might learn of that man.

The Son willingly goes to the cross , the Sinless Son faces being separated by taking on Himself our sin and wrathdue to us. That is why there is no condemnation to us IN CHRIST>

I do not not believe a Holy God leaves any sin unpunished. How about you?
Explain exactly what happened to the Sin of believers?
Was it punished?


if God punishes every idle word the ungodly speak, what about the idle words of believers?

 

[agedman]

I do not ignore Scripture from Genesis to Revelation. But I do ignore what you seem to be pointing to as "progressive" revelation. When you rely on the Reformers (and by necessity, RCC doctrine reformed) then you are adding to Scripture.

I'm not talking about ascending to another level. I'm talking about sticking with the Word of God, at least for such vital doctrines

You do realize that you are unable to point to a passage that teaches Christ suffered God's wrath, much less states it. In fact, Scripture teaches and states that it is an abomination to substitute the righteous for the unrighteous. Do you know those passages?

My friend, it is you who Reject God's plan, not me...you are not allowed to see it for some reason...MM, and all the others see it.
All the reformers saw it, modern teachers see it.

The fact that those outside of Christ get judgment without mercy is clear....You have not once answered the question...what happened to the sin of the elect...
where did it Go? how can the penalty due, be paid?
How is God the just and the justifier? you have no answer, but to glibly repeat general ideas...PSA. is the answer to the broken law of God being paid, our sins being redeemed, then justly forgiven when the Just died for the unjust, once for all time.

Your ideas strip the cross of its central meaning.[/QUOTE]
Iconoclast,

My friend, I have answeRed this very question more than once on these threads.

Here again is the answer from Scriptures:

8See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, which are based on human tradition and the spiritual forces of the world rather than on Christ. 9For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity dwells in bodily form. 10And you have been made complete in Christ, who is the head over every ruler and authority.11In Him you were also circumcised, in the putting off of your sinful nature, with the circumcision performed by Christb and not by human hands. 12And having been buried with Him in baptism, you were raised with Him through your faith in the power of God, who raised Him from the dead.13When you were dead in your trespasses and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our trespasses, 14having canceled the debt ascribed to us in the decrees that stood against us. He took it away, nailing it to the cross! 15And having disarmed the powers and authorities, He made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.
(Colossians 2)​

There was NO WRATH!

Just as God made “you alive in Christ,” “He forgave all our trespasses,” “He cancelled the debt,” “He took it away, nailing it to the cross!”

Look at the very next verse. Christ did not endure the Wrath of God, for He was in pitched battle “disarming powers and authorities” and not only making them a spectacle but also triumphing over them.

God did not pour wrath out upon His Son triumphing over the enemies of the new covenant.

 

[agedman]

The Son willingly goes to the cross , the Sinless Son faces being separated by taking on Himself our sin and wrathdue to us. That is why there is no condemnation to us IN CHRIST>

I do not not believe a Holy God leaves any sin unpunished. How about you?
Explain exactly what happened to the Sin of believers?
Was it punished?


if God punishes every idle word the ungodly speak, what about the idle words of believers?

when does God ever show in Scripture He is obliged to separate from the sinful?

Did He at any point turn away from any of His servants? We’re they sinful?

Why then would He be obliged to turn away from His own Son?

“He FORGIVES all mine iniquities and heals all my diseases, He redeems my life from destruction, and crowns me with loving kindness and tender mercies, and satisfies my mouth with good things.”

 

[agedman]

@Iconoclast
In the OT atonement at Passover, what happened to the people’s sins?

When did God pour out His wrath at that sacrifice?

Was it not when either the blood or the high priest was impure? Certainly, that was the reason for the rope around his foot and bells on his robe. If He died, the offering was rejected for another year.

Was Christ any less than the Perfect High Priest?

Was His Blood less than pure?

God did not pour wrath upon the priest and blood in the OT as unworthy as they were without cause.

How much less would God pour Wrath out upon a more perfect Sacrifice as Hebrews calls that Which Christ did at the crucifixion?

God did not pour wrath out upon the Son. As Isaiah states, Christ fulfilled the Father’s will.

10Yet it was the LORD’s will to crush Him and to cause Him to suffer;

and when His soul is made a guilt offering,

He will see His offspring, He will prolong His days,

and the good pleasure of the LORD will prosper in His hand.

11After the anguish of His soul,

He will see the light of life and be satisfied.

By His knowledge My righteous Servant will justify many,

and He will bear their iniquities.

12Therefore I will allot Him a portion with the great,i

and He will divide the spoils with the strong,

because He has poured out His life unto death,

and He was numbered with the transgressors.

Yet He bore the sin of many

and made intercession for the transgressors.

​

It needs to be understood, because some read into this passage wrath of God. It is not there.

RATHER by using Scriptures with Scriptures, we see that God ordained, planned, caused to come to pass the brutalizing of the Saviour by Human hands, not by pouring out wrath. Psalms 22, Acts 2, and other places.

Just as the birth was prophecied as a sign, so too was the cross, not only as a sign, but the 2nd covenant began at the crucifixion. See Hebrews.

 

[JonC]

Your ideas strip the cross of its central meaning.

Rather than accusations (from both of us) I think it may be better to simply discuss Scripture.

Let's leave out insults. Let's leave out theories. And let's discuss God's Word.

If you will, why don't we start with the passage that states that God punishes the righteous to acquit the guilty. Or that Christ experienced God's wrath instead of us. Or that Christ's death was to appease God.

Please do not just throw out passages after passage that don't really teach what you claim as that just clouds the issue (sometimes it seems members post passages to look biblical while not really defending their position).

What passage would you like to discuss first? Your choice. Let iron sharpen iron, with Scripture as the test of the metal.

 

[JesusFan]

It is certainly post-Reformation. There is no evidence Penal Substitution Theory existed before the Reformation. RCC doctrine is almost there, but no churches outside of the RCC held anything like Penal Substitution Theory.

Again, Romans 5:8, Romans 6:23, 1 Corinthians 15:3, Isaiah 53:6, Isaiah 53:10-12, Ezekiel 18:4, James 5:20, Matthew 10:28, and John 19:28-30 have nothing to do with Penal SubstitutionTheor, exceot the Theory mixes in those verses with its humanistic philosophy.

I have no issues with the passages Penal Substitution Theory uses. The issue I have is what the Theory adds to passages changes their meaning.

It is impossible to believe Penal Substitution Theory without adding to Scripture.

Many Ecf held to a form of it, and the reformers filled it out in its fulness per the scriptures!

 

[JonC]

Many Ecf held to a form of it, and the reformers filled it out in its fulness per the scriptures!

There is no evidence of this, but it doesn't matter.

What I am asking for (and have asked @Iconoclast for) are passages confirming the Theory correct. That way we can all view and discuss the passages. That is iron sharpening iron - not just making statements but seeking out God's Word.

 

[JesusFan]

There is no evidence of this, but it doesn't matter.

What I am asking for (and have asked @Iconoclast for) are passages confirming the Theory correct. That way we can all view and discuss the passages. That is iron sharpening iron - not just making statements but seeking out God's Word.

Will not be possible, as we would see it in many of the same passages you deny, as we do see the wrath of God towards sinners being propitiated in the Cross!

 

[JonC]

Will not be possible, as we would see it in many of the same passages you deny, as we do see the wrath of God towards sinners being propitiated in the Cross!

Can you at least provide even one passage I (and @agedman ) denies? Please provide the entire verse so we can look and see if we are guilty of denying the passage or denying what you believe it means.

It is more important, IMHO, to examine what Scripture says than what it says to particular people. And we can only do this by looking at Scripture.

Thank you.

 

[agedman]

Didn’t I present from Isaiah 53 that there was no wrath shown in that passage.

Nor was any found in various Romans passages shared.

I really do look forward to being shon I am wrong, but so far nothing from Scripture.

For example from the Isaiah passage posted above:

10Yet it was the LORD’s will to crush Him and to cause Him to suffer;

and when His soul is made a guilt offering,

He will see His offspring, He will prolong His days,

and the good pleasure of the LORD will prosper in His hand.

11After the anguish of His soul,

He will see the light of life and be satisfied.
​

The will of God did not use His Wrath, but human ferocity and vile hearted rulers.

This is proven by the statement concerning the crucifixion in Acts 2 as well as the pattern established in the OT in which was a picture of what actually took place in reality in heaven. (Hebrews)

So where are the supporting verses that folks declare support the PSA theory?

I really do want to find at least on passage.

 

[JesusFan]

Can you at least provide even one passage I (and @agedman ) denies? Please provide the entire verse so we can look and see if we are guilty of denying the passage or denying what you believe it means.

It is more important, IMHO, to examine what Scripture says than what it says to particular people. And we can only do this by looking at Scripture.

Thank you.

One question, do you accept or deny that God has wrath towards the lost, towards all who deny Lord Jesus?
That God the Father shall execute upon and towards them divine wrath in their judgement?

 

[JesusFan]

Didn’t I present from Isaiah 53 that there was no wrath shown in that passage.

Nor was any found in various Romans passages shared.

I really do look forward to being shon I am wrong, but so far nothing from Scripture.

For example from the Isaiah passage posted above:

10Yet it was the LORD’s will to crush Him and to cause Him to suffer;

and when His soul is made a guilt offering,

He will see His offspring, He will prolong His days,

and the good pleasure of the LORD will prosper in His hand.

11After the anguish of His soul,

He will see the light of life and be satisfied.
​

The will of God did not use His Wrath, but human ferocity and vile hearted rulers.

This is proven by the statement concerning the crucifixion in Acts 2 as well as the pattern established in the OT in which was a picture of what actually took place in reality in heaven. (Hebrews)

So where are the supporting verses that folks declare support the PSA theory?

I really do want to find at least on passage.

Revelation 14:10
We were all to face that before saved, correct?

 

[JonC]

One question, do you accept or deny that God has wrath towards the lost, towards all who deny Lord Jesus?
That God the Father shall execute upon and towards them divine wrath in their judgement?

I think it is best, at this point, to simply discuss Scrioture. It does not matter what I think. It does not matter what you think. What matters is what is written in God's Word.

With that, consider this passage:

1 Thessalonians 1:8–10 For the word of the Lord has sounded forth from you, not only in Macedonia and Achaia, but also in every place your faith toward God has gone forth, so that we have no need to say anything. For they themselves report about us what kind of a reception we had with you, and how you turned to God from idols to serve a living and true God, and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, that is Jesus, who rescues us from the wrath to come.

I believe that Christ rescues us from the wrath to come. This tells me two vital things - first, there is a wrath to come. Second, Christ saves us from this wrath.