What passage says that Jesus experienced God's wrath instead of us?
Put the words in bold and let's discuss it.
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The Biblical Atonement (continued 3)
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Put the words in bold and let's discuss it.
Thanks
Saying Jesus made great cinnamon rolls would elevate His cooking skills. It does not make it right.
What passage says that Jesus experienced God's wrath instead of us?
Put the words in bold and let's discuss it.
Then you should be able to fine abundant passages that plainly state God poured His wrath out upon the Son.
@JesusFan @Aaron
Throughout these threads, @JonC and I have presented numerous Scriptures that state the Satisfaction, the victorious, the proper use of substitution, the fulfillment of prophecy, the propitiation, and so forth.
Neither of us has avoided, misused, or misapplied the Scriptures; rather, we have given the consistency by showing context the proofs.
All we have ask is that others provide the Scriptures stating the position they take that we may all compare Scripture with Scripture and that the final resolve is based upon Scripture and not philosophical conjurings.
Please , bring Scriptures to your view that we may examine the support.
Throughout these threads, @JonC and I have presented numerous Scriptures that state the Satisfaction, the victorious, the proper use of substitution, the fulfillment of prophecy, the propitiation, and so forth.
Neither of us has avoided, misused, or misapplied the Scriptures; rather, we have given the consistency by showing context the proofs.
All we have ask is that others provide the Scriptures stating the position they take that we may all compare Scripture with Scripture and that the final resolve is based upon Scripture and not philosophical conjurings.
Please , bring Scriptures to your view that we may examine the support.
Scripture tells us of the OT sacrifice system under the Law and how during this time God, in His forbearance, passed over their sins. Scripture tells us of the faith of the OT faithful that was counted as righteousness.
Scripture tells of Adam's transgression and how sin and death entered the world. And we are told of the bondage of sin and death that enslaved man. Scripture tells us that it is appointed man once to die and then the Judgment.
Scripture tells us of the "Last Adam", Jesus Christ, who became flesh, shared our infirmity, became a curse for us, was made sin for us, bore our sins in His body, suffered and died under the evil of this world and by those to whom He came.
Scripture tells us this was the will of God, He was pleased to crush Him, that this was His predetermined plan. Also, Christ lay down His own life in obedience and by His own accord.
Scripture tells us that God vindicated Christ, raised Him, gave Him a name above every name. Scripture tells us all judgment has been given the Son.
Scripture tells us that it is an abomination to God to substitute the righteous for the guilty. Scripture tells us that our salvation is the righteousness of God manifested apart from the law.
Scripture tells us that Christ is the Propitiation for not only our sins but the sins of the whole world. The Cross was God reconciling man to Himself and now we have the ministry of reconciliation, urging men to be reconciled to God. Through Christ's death man was reconciled, and through His life men are saved.
Scripture tells us that we can not earn our salvation, but that we must be reborn, made new creations in Christ, we must die to the flesh and all flesh must perish. We must be born of the Spirit, in Christ, in Whom there is no condemnation.
But Scripture does NOT say that Christ's death was to appease God or God's wrath. Scripture does NOT say that Christ suffered God's wrath. Scripture does NOT say that God can only forgive after punishing sin. Scripture does NOT say the only way to forgive men is via punishment. Scrioture does NOT say Christ died instead of us.
Scripture tells of Adam's transgression and how sin and death entered the world. And we are told of the bondage of sin and death that enslaved man. Scripture tells us that it is appointed man once to die and then the Judgment.
Scripture tells us of the "Last Adam", Jesus Christ, who became flesh, shared our infirmity, became a curse for us, was made sin for us, bore our sins in His body, suffered and died under the evil of this world and by those to whom He came.
Scripture tells us this was the will of God, He was pleased to crush Him, that this was His predetermined plan. Also, Christ lay down His own life in obedience and by His own accord.
Scripture tells us that God vindicated Christ, raised Him, gave Him a name above every name. Scripture tells us all judgment has been given the Son.
Scripture tells us that it is an abomination to God to substitute the righteous for the guilty. Scripture tells us that our salvation is the righteousness of God manifested apart from the law.
Scripture tells us that Christ is the Propitiation for not only our sins but the sins of the whole world. The Cross was God reconciling man to Himself and now we have the ministry of reconciliation, urging men to be reconciled to God. Through Christ's death man was reconciled, and through His life men are saved.
Scripture tells us that we can not earn our salvation, but that we must be reborn, made new creations in Christ, we must die to the flesh and all flesh must perish. We must be born of the Spirit, in Christ, in Whom there is no condemnation.
But Scripture does NOT say that Christ's death was to appease God or God's wrath. Scripture does NOT say that Christ suffered God's wrath. Scripture does NOT say that God can only forgive after punishing sin. Scripture does NOT say the only way to forgive men is via punishment. Scrioture does NOT say Christ died instead of us.
And this is where you miss it.
The Denying Duo has been shown time and again, but, like insolent children, demand that the arguments conform to their verbatims. God is not inclined to acquiessce to childishness. So let's put the maxims to which they pay lip service to the test.
1. What does it mean to be made sin?
2. What does it mean to bear our sins?
3. What does it mean to be made a curse?
I will simply take the third case, because the Apostle lays out the argument for us, linking us right back to the law upon which His statement is based, and because Jon supplied a retort to the Apostle's case very useful in the undoing his own premises.
Paul said, and I agree with him, that Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree: Galatians 3:13
As is common among the NT writers, Paul did not quote the law verbatim, but drew from it the obvious implication. The writing to which Paul appealed is thus:
And if a man have committed a sin worthy of death, and he be to be put to death, and thou hang him on a tree: His body shall not remain all night upon the tree, but thou shalt in any wise bury him that day; for he that is hanged is accursed of God; that thy land be not defiled, which the LORD thy God giveth thee for an inheritance. Deuteronomy 21:22-23
In retort, Jon said this:
So your interpretation of the passage is anybody who is hanged on a tree is cursed by God (like Peter, Black people who were lynched, the Hebrews who were crucified by the Saducces during the Hasmonean period, etc.)?
Isn't that a little like witchcraft (if you want to have somebody cursed by God, hang them on a tree)?
The retort is a ridiculous, obviously, and a DIStortion of the argument. Of course the mere hanging on a tree does not result in a curse. It is the guilt of the one hung, and the just sentence on that one for his sin that results in a curse.
When Paul said that Jesus became a curse for us, it means that He took our place in judgment. He took our sentence. It is really that simple.
Scripture interprets Scripture (over and over again). It means "He became a curse for us", "He bore our sins in His body", "He shared our infirmity", "the Word became flesh".
He became a curse for us. That is what Scripture says. That is what @agedman and I have said.
But you claim "He became a curse for us" means "He took our place in judgment". That is eisegesis. It does not say anything remotely close to that.
It says that He became a curse for us. He bore our sins in His body. He shared our infirmity (NOT He suffered our infirmity instead of us).
Why do you feel the need to add to God's Word? It us unnecessary. Scripture is complete and perfect without adding to it. If you cannot understand Scripture for what it says then continue studying and praying. Adding theory to the Bible will mot help you grasp God's Word any better.
It isn't eisegesis. He couldn't be a curse unless there was guilt and a sentence executed. It is not the mere hanging on a tree that is cursed of God, it is the guilty one under a sentence that is cursed.
He became our curse, by taking our guilt and our sin and our sentence. That's the significance of the Cross.
Scripture says He was made a curse for us, He bore our sins in His body, He shared our infirmity, He became flesh.
Why do you believe He couldn't be a curse unless there was guilt and a sentence executed??
I do understand that the Jews hung bodies on a tree when they deemed them guilty. Christ was not guilty, but those to whom He came esteemed Him stricken by God.
What I do not understand is how you come to your conclusions as they are foreign to Scripture. Were you just taught that way? If so, just test what you were taught against Scripture and you will be on more solid ground.
Like you prove in this thread, your doctrine of the cross is something you carry into Scripture. It is not actually there.
Your belief is, by definition, eisegesis.
Umm, the Scriptures I cited?
He took our sins and our guilt. The Spirit knew that certain men would creep in and try to mitigate their own sin by mitigating the price Christ paid. And so the Apostle links the Cross with that law and says not only sins, but the curse of the law on sinners as well.
It is an evil heart of unbelief that denies this.
No. The Scripture you cited said nothing of Christ experiencing God's wrath instead of us, that Christ's death appeased God.
There is a reason Augustine made a strong point to call the belief Christ's death appeased God a heresy, a departure from the Christian faith. The reason is the view you hold is paganism.
You approach the OT as if God was borrowing from ANE pagan belief when He gave Israel the Law. This one error has altered every passage you touch regarding our redemption.
None of the Scriptures you cited support your conclusions. You just toss out verses and then your opinion of what you feel they should have said. Ypu read paganism into the text. Eisegesis.
Neither @JonC or I refute the Scripture statements.
You desire that wrath must brought to purge and bring appeasement, but do the Scriptures teach that as the truth?
At any place did wrath upon a people bringing appeasement?
For example, the Revelations has the total of God's wrath poured out upon this creation. Did it bring appeasement so that none suffered the eternal flames?
No, it will not.
When the wrath shown to the Israel when the snakes came, or when the earth opened and swallowed whole groups, did it bring appeasement?
No, it did not.
Wrath never brings appeasement to God in the Scriptures, unless I missed some verse. So if I am in error I can be corrected.
Look and see, perhaps I am.
Colossians 2:
Such is what PSA theory is based upon.
9For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity dwells in bodily form.
10And you have been made complete in Christ, who is the head over every ruler and authority. 11In Him you were also circumcised, in the putting off of your sinful nature, with the circumcision performed by Christ and not by human hands. 12And having been buried with Him in baptism, you were raised with Him through your faith in the power of God, who raised Him from the dead.
13When you were dead in your trespasses and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ.
He forgave us all our trespasses, 14having canceled the debt ascribed to us in the decrees that stood against us.
He took it away, nailing it to the cross! 15And having disarmed the powers and authorities, He made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.
Paul is comparing the estate of the human with the work of God and Christ. Where is the wrath from God shown in this passage?
Ephesians 2:
Paul, again, comparing the estate of the human with the work of God and Christ. Where is the wrath from God shown in this passage?
Romans 3:
Paul, again, showing the work of God and Christ. Where is the wrath from God shown in this passage?
God is BOTH just and the one who justifies. As both, it would not be within the attributes of God to bring wrath upon one who is "without sin."
Therefore, God cannot have poured wrath out upon either the sin, nor the Christ, for the latter bore (carried) the sin, those decrees of the Law that stood against the believers, and nailed them to the cross. The shedding of Blood brought the forgiveness of Sins. Not the Wrath of God.
There are so many more verses, but none show Christ suffered the wrath of God.
It is as Colossians 2 states concerning philosophies that can take folks captive such as the PSA theory:
8See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, which are based on human tradition and the spiritual forces of the world rather than on Christ.
9For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity dwells in bodily form.
10And you have been made complete in Christ, who is the head over every ruler and authority. 11In Him you were also circumcised, in the putting off of your sinful nature, with the circumcision performed by Christ and not by human hands. 12And having been buried with Him in baptism, you were raised with Him through your faith in the power of God, who raised Him from the dead.
13When you were dead in your trespasses and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ.
He forgave us all our trespasses, 14having canceled the debt ascribed to us in the decrees that stood against us.
He took it away, nailing it to the cross! 15And having disarmed the powers and authorities, He made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.
Ephesians 2:
11Therefore remember that formerly you who are Gentiles in the flesh and called uncircumcised by the so-called circumcision (that done in the body by human hands)— 12remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world. 13But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ. 14For He Himself is our peace, who has made the two one and has torn down the dividing wall of hostility 15by abolishing in His flesh the law of commandments and decrees. He did this to create in Himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace 16and reconciling both of them to God in one body through the cross, by which He extinguished their hostility. 17He came and preached peace to you who were far away and peace to those who were near. 18For through Him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit.
Romans 3:
21But now, apart from the law, the righteousness of God has been revealed, as attested by the Law and the Prophets.
22And this righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no distinction, 23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24and are justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus.
25God presented Him as the atoning sacrifice through faith in His blood, in order to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance He had passed over the sins committed beforehand. 26He did this to demonstrate His righteousness at the present time, so as to be just and to justify the one who has faith in Jesus.
22And this righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no distinction, 23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24and are justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus.
25God presented Him as the atoning sacrifice through faith in His blood, in order to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance He had passed over the sins committed beforehand. 26He did this to demonstrate His righteousness at the present time, so as to be just and to justify the one who has faith in Jesus.
God is BOTH just and the one who justifies. As both, it would not be within the attributes of God to bring wrath upon one who is "without sin."
Therefore, God cannot have poured wrath out upon either the sin, nor the Christ, for the latter bore (carried) the sin, those decrees of the Law that stood against the believers, and nailed them to the cross. The shedding of Blood brought the forgiveness of Sins. Not the Wrath of God.
There are so many more verses, but none show Christ suffered the wrath of God.
It is as Colossians 2 states concerning philosophies that can take folks captive such as the PSA theory:
8See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, which are based on human tradition and the spiritual forces of the world rather than on Christ.
You're forgetting the Baptist's own words on this. Behold, the Lamb of God. What was the purpose in the Israelite's bringing of a lamb to the Tabernacle?
Don't start with your own notions. Start with the Scriptures, and then work forward.
Where does Paul write that Christ suffered God's wrath instead of us? Where does Paul write that Christ's death was to appease God's wrath?
Since these words ate obviously not in the Bible, what documents are you referencing?
The lambs of men were offered in obedience to liberate Israel from Egyptian bondage. They were offered in the Temple for God to pass over their sins (this pointed to the New Covenant...God in His forbearance passed over their sins).
This did not appease God. This pointed to the Lamb to be slain for our benefit.
Even here this is not presented as ANE paganism. Nowhere does Scripture say Christ's death appeased God. The idea is pagan.
God in His righteousness judged their sins in the substitutes they brought. It pointed to Christ.
Again, what passage are you referencing?
I know what you believe as I once believed the same. So I really do not care about discussing opinions, philosophy and theories. Let's discuss God's Word.
Sure. Behold the lamb of God, which taketh away the sins of the world. Here Christ is identified with the sacrifices.
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