The 64000 question is just HOW the wrath of the father due to us was propitiated, on what basis?
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The Biblical Atonement (continued 3)
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Scripture provides the answer. I will try to keep them in a logical order and then explain what I believe.
John 3:6–21“That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not be amazed that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’... “He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. “This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil.
John 5:22–24 “For not even the Father judges anyone, but He has given all judgment to the Son, so that all will honor the Son even as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him. Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life."
2 Corinthians 5:14–21 For the love of Christ controls us, having concluded this, that one died for all, therefore all died; and He died for all, so that they who live might no longer live for themselves, but for Him who died and rose again on their behalf. Therefore from now on we recognize no one according to the flesh; even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him in this way no longer. Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come. Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation, namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation. Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were making an appeal through us; we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God. He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.
Scripture does not say that wrath is propitiated, but rather that Christ is the Propitiation for the sins of the world. As discussed, in Him we escape the wrath to come.
Your question is "how?".
Man must be "born again" (or "born from above"), be born "of the Spirit", "die to the flesh", "be made alive in Christ", and be made "a new creation" in Christ where there is no condemnation.
What charge is against a new creation? What charge is against the Spirit? None.
Not though Pauline Justification
If you consider "Pauline Justification" to be something other than those passages then I suggest you misunderstand Paul, those passages, or both.
While John recorded two of the passages, Paul the other, they come from God.
If by "Pauline Justification" you mean Penal Substitution Theory, then I agree that it is nowhere in those passages. The first two were Jesus' teachings and the last from one of Paul's letters.
From Romans:
The God provided The Christ as the atoning sacrifice. A matter the the law and prophets attested, too.
Was there ever an atoning sacrifice presented by God in which He would not be pleased?
Humans did not present the atoning Sacrifice, the Father did to demonstrate His righteousness.
Would God pour vengeance of wrath out upon that which He offered?
21But now, apart from the law, the righteousness of God has been revealed, as attested by the Law and the Prophets. 22And this righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no distinction, 23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24and are justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus. 25God presented Him as the atoning sacrificei through faith in His blood, in order to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance He had passed over the sins committed beforehand.
26He did this to demonstrate His righteousness at the present time, so as to be just and to justify the one who has faith in Jesus.27Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. On what principle? On that of works? No, but on that of faith. 28For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the law. 29Is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles too, 30since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through that same faith.
31Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Certainly not! Instead, we uphold the law.
26He did this to demonstrate His righteousness at the present time, so as to be just and to justify the one who has faith in Jesus.27Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. On what principle? On that of works? No, but on that of faith. 28For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the law. 29Is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles too, 30since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through that same faith.
31Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Certainly not! Instead, we uphold the law.
Was there ever an atoning sacrifice presented by God in which He would not be pleased?
Humans did not present the atoning Sacrifice, the Father did to demonstrate His righteousness.
Would God pour vengeance of wrath out upon that which He offered?
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If you worship the beast, most certainly, if you are preserved and persevere in redemption then no.
9And a third angel followed them, calling out in a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and its image, and receives its mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10he too will drink the wine of God’s anger, poured undiluted into the cup of His wrath. And he will be tormented in fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb.11And the smoke of their torment rises forever and ever. Day and night there is no rest for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name.”
https://biblehub.com/revelation/14-12.htm“Yes,” says the Spirit, “they will rest from their labors, for their deeds will follow them.”
@Iconoclast , @Martin Marprelate , @JesusFan
You are expecting us to believe Penal Substitution Theory yet have, thus far anyway, been incapable of providing even one assuage that teaches Christ experienced God's wrath instead of us.
Given that this teaching is not actually in God's Word, how do you believe it is biblical? Since it is not in Scripture, how did you test the Theory (what was your standard)?
If I am wrong, the invitation still stands. @agedman and I have provided our beliefs and passages stating what we believe. Please do the same (if you can).
You are expecting us to believe Penal Substitution Theory yet have, thus far anyway, been incapable of providing even one assuage that teaches Christ experienced God's wrath instead of us.
Given that this teaching is not actually in God's Word, how do you believe it is biblical? Since it is not in Scripture, how did you test the Theory (what was your standard)?
If I am wrong, the invitation still stands. @agedman and I have provided our beliefs and passages stating what we believe. Please do the same (if you can).
You cannot state that Psa is not biblical nor not found in bible, just that you do not see it appearing in there!
Yes, as Jesus death was the propitiation for His divine wrath!
We were ALL children of wrath before saved by the Grace of God!
No Scriptures even come close to supporting that thinking.
If you think they do, then post them and show exactly the proof.
Uh....yes I can. You fight hard for the Theory, but you have also proved unable to provide a passage supporting it.
If it doesn’t appear in the Scriptures, then it isn’t biblical.
One cannot prove a negative, therefore, those that consider PSA scriptural must show it is foundational in the Scriptures.
Then also, by application, one must demonstrate how the wrath of God could be poured out on a member of the God head without it a violation of holiness for punishing the perfect sacrifice.
What divine wrath?
Divine wrath is for the ungodly not the Godly.
Are you suggesting that the Christ was ungodly?
If so then the unclean cannot make the unclean clean.
If Christ became unGodly, He would have needed a clean Saviour as any believer.
Why is it you present no Scriptures?
It is troubling that you make grand claims, but have not shown appropriate Scripture support.
What makes you think that God’s wrath had to be appeased?
Is there Scriptures for that thinking?
Not saying there isn’t, but you need to produce them so we all remain focused on the Scripture, not merely your opinion..
Scripture does speak of this, but in the form of paganism. Baal worshipers would sacrifice animals to appease the god. They would also sacrifice their firstborn son to Baal for deliverance from certain situations.
But you are absolutely right that this paganism was not, per Scripture, adopted by God.
The reason JesusFan has not revised any passages in support of his posts is there are none to provide. All he could do is provide passages (like Iconoclast and Martin Marprelate did earlier) and then provide an unrelated teaching ("Christ bore our sins.....this means God punished the sins ....not Him ... instead of us by pouring out His wrath....Jesus happened to be holding the target of God's rage" kinda thing).
Entire bible supports it!
PSA elevates and honors the Lord Jesus, as His sacrifice for our sakes, by His enduring the wrath and judgement we should had received, is to bring praises to His name!
The denying duo (jon and aged) continue to simply work backwards from their carnal notions of certain implications, and not forward from the Scriptures, as if becoming moral and dying is less of a denial of the Trinity than enduring wrath.
So we can work backwards too. In the end, will there be an unsaved sinner receiving more than is his due? If so, then God is unjust, demanding more of the sinner than the true cost of his sin. If not, then how can one say the price of Redemption has been paid, if Christ did not endure wrath?
So we can work backwards too. In the end, will there be an unsaved sinner receiving more than is his due? If so, then God is unjust, demanding more of the sinner than the true cost of his sin. If not, then how can one say the price of Redemption has been paid, if Christ did not endure wrath?
OK, then it won't be hard to provide passages teaching that Jesus experienced God's wrath instead of us.
Let's explore the passage you have in mind. Please post it and put in bold where Jesus suffers God's wrath instead of us.
Thanks.
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