The Biblical Doctrine of Divorce

[LadyEagle]

This "modern" English definition is helpful in that it helps us to understand how the word is used in our modern English language. However, it does little to help in the current debate because we are discussing the meaning of the NT Greek word that is translated "fornication." At this point we want to focus on the meaning of the NT Greek not on the meaning of the modern English.

And the word translated in KJV fornication is pornea in the Greek:

Pronunciation: por-ni'-ah
Origin: from 4203
Reference: TDNT - 6:579,918
PrtSpch:
In Greek: porneiav 6, porneiai 2, porneia 2
In NET: immorality 6, immoral 2, sexual 1, immoralities 1
In AV: fornication 26
Count: 26
Definition: 1) illicit sexual intercourse
1a) adultery, fornication, homosexuality, lesbianism, intercourse
with animals etc.
1b) sexual intercourse with close relatives; Lev. 18
1c) sexual intercourse with a divorced man or woman; \\#Mr 10:11,12\\
2) metaph. the worship of idols
2a) of the defilement of idolatry, as incurred by eating the
sacrifices offered to idols
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
from 4203; harlotry (including adultery and incest); figuratively,
idolatry:-fornication.
see GREEK for 4203

Is this beaten horse not dead yet? Just wondering. I posted this pages ago. (sigh)

 

[Bible-boy]

Deut.24

[1] When a man hath taken a wife, and married her, and it come to pass that she find no favour in his eyes, because he hath found some uncleanness in her: then let him write her a bill of divorcement, and give it in her hand, and send her out of his house.
[2] And when she is departed out of his house, she may go and be another man's wife.
[3] And if the latter husband hate her, and write her a bill of divorcement, and giveth it in her hand, and sendeth her out of his house; or if the latter husband die, which took her to be his wife;
[4] Her former husband, which sent her away, may not take her again to be his wife, after that she is defiled; for that is abomination before the LORD: and thou shalt not cause the land to sin, which the LORD thy God giveth thee for an inheritance.

Thanks LE for providing the full text of the passage I referenced. Now let's go back and focus on what Jesus said in Matt. 5:31-32; and 19:1-9.

I'll ask again, when Jesus was discussing this issue with the Pharisees and His disciples what was He talking about when He spoke about the "hardness of your hearts" (Matt. 19:8)?

Did He mean that God allowed divorce in the OT law (Deut. 24:1-4) because the Israelite men were a bunch of selfish pigs who just wanted to be able to divorce, or did He have something else in mind?

 

[Brother Bob]

Thanks LE for providing the full text of the passage I referenced. Now let's go back and focus on what Jesus said in Matt. 5:31-32; and 19:1-9.

I'll ask again, when Jesus was discussing this issue with the Pharisees and His disciples what was He talking about when He spoke about the "hardness of your hearts" (Matt. 19:8)?

Did He mean that God allowed divorce in the OT law (Deut. 24:1-4) because the Israelite men were a bunch of selfish pigs who just wanted to be able to divorce, or did He have something else in mind?

Probably both, but that is not what we are discussing either. We are discussing the "saving the cause of fornication" part, if I am correct.

We could get off into a whole new thread on that BibleBoy.

I believe fornication covers it all where adultery is a specific act for the married. I think you could use fornication for the married also in the place of adultery, if you wanted.


BBob,

 

[LadyEagle]

Did He mean that God allowed divorce in the OT law (Deut. 24:1-4) because the Israelite men were a bunch of selfish pigs who just wanted to be able to divorce, or did He have something else in mind?

I agree that we need a new thread on that topic. Also, I have another question, so I will start a new thread on my question, too.

Thanks.

 

[Bible-boy]

Probably both, but that is not what we are discussing either. We are discussing the "saving the cause of fornication" part, if I am correct.

We could get off into a whole new thread on that BibleBoy.

BBob,

Nope,

That's the problem we always run into when discussing/debating this passage. We always pick apart the text and focus on only part of what Jesus actually said. Jesus' answer to the Pharisee's question is very specific and the two phrases addressing why divorce was permitted in the OT law the "hardness of your hearts" (Matt. 19:8, NKJV) issue and the "except for sexual immorality" (Matt. 19:9, NKJV) issue are inextricably linked together. They must be discussed together. I was just trying to focus on the first part before moving on to the second.:thumbs:

 

[LadyEagle]

Okay, gotha on your train of thought!:thumbs:

 

[annsni]

This "modern" English definition is helpful in that it helps us to understand how the word is used in our modern English language. However, it does little to help in the current debate because we are discussing the meaning of the NT Greek word that is translated "fornication." At this point we want to focus on the meaning of the NT Greek not on the meaning of the modern English.

While the 1828 is certainly not inspired, it is closer to the language understanding that was in place in 1611. Word meanings have changed drastically since Webster wrote his first dictionary but I think it's been exponential compared to the changes before it. So I find that the 1828 definitions are pretty close to what the KJV writers used rather than the definitions we use today.

 

[pinoybaptist]

She said: I have no husband.
Jesus said: You have had five husbands.

One might rightly infer by Jesus' words that she was married to at least one of those five. That being the case; it is adultery.

Or she might have been widowed five times, and the sixth time chose to "live-in" with the man, in which case they cannot be legally called husband and wife.
that would then be fornication.

 

[DHK]

Or she might have been widowed five times, and the sixth time chose to "live-in" with the man, in which case they cannot be legally called husband and wife.
that would then be fornication.

She could have, but it is highly unlikely. The context of the story portrays her as a very immoral character, not as a poor widow, having fallen into trouble because of the death of five prevous husbands.

 

[Bible-boy]

Probably both, but that is not what we are discussing either. We are discussing the "saving the cause of fornication" part, if I am correct.

BBob,

I don't think so. God's word is very clear what the Israelites were to do with both parties caught in adultry. Both the man and the woman were to be stoned (Deut. 22:22).

Since Jesus mentions a problem with "hardness of heart" followed immediately with the "except for adultry" (fornication, sexual immorality etc.) phrase, we must explore the connection between the OT divorce laws and the OT laws reguarding adultry.

Is it possible that the hardness of heart issue, with respect to cases of adultry, was that the Israelite men were unwilling to stone (kill) their wives/mothers of their children? Thus, the proscription of a bill of divorce was granted in Deut 24:1-2?

 

[Brother Bob]

Nope,

That's the problem we always run into when discussing/debating this passage. We always pick apart the text and focus on only part of what Jesus actually said. Jesus' answer to the Pharisee's question is very specific and the two phrases addressing why divorce was permitted in the OT law the "hardness of your hearts" (Matt. 19:8, NKJV) issue and the "except for sexual immorality" (Matt. 19:9, NKJV) issue are inextricably linked together. They must be discussed together. I was just trying to focus on the first part before moving on to the second.:thumbs:

Yea, I understand. Have to let my brain rattle for a while.

BBob,

 

[Bible-boy]

Yea, I understand. Have to let my brain rattle for a while.

BBob,

Okay,

Did you see my post #190 at the bottom of page 19?

 

[Brother Bob]

I don't think so. God's word is very clear what the Israelites were to do with both parties caught in adultry. Both the man and the woman were to be stoned (Deut. 22:22).

Since Jesus mentions a problem with "hardness of heart" followed immediately with the "except for adultry" (fornication, sexual immorality etc.) phrase, we must explore the connection between the OT divorce laws and the OT laws reguarding adultry.

Is it possible that the hardness of heart issue, with respect to cases of adultry, was that the Israelite men were unwilling to stone (kill) their wives/mothers of their children? Thus, the proscription of a bill of divorce was granted in Deut 24:1-2?

Just now looked at your post on #19

Israel was a very disobeidant people, but God always had mercy towards them. They demanded a King as other nations and finally God give in and gave them one.
They must of demanded to be free of some of their woman, so it seems being they would not give in, that God told Moses to give the a right to a Bill of Divorcement.

I always thought "hardness" was in most cases "blindness". Man I would have to do some studying on this to be able to debate it in a senseable way. I will watch a while and then maybe jump in.

What I have trouble with, is they had all these "concubines", so it does not seem that adultery was charged to some people. Seemed to be a double standard. I don't know how to settle down on the issue, when it was different with some people than others. Everyone always refers to King David. I know he was punished by losing his son, while others were stoned to death. Hard to come up with a clear answer that would fit all.

The reason for blindness as hardness is:

Mark 6:52 says

“For they considered not the miracle of the loaves: for their heart was hardened.”


BBob,

 

[Bible-boy]

While the 1828 is certainly not inspired, it is closer to the language understanding that was in place in 1611. Word meanings have changed drastically since Webster wrote his first dictionary but I think it's been exponential compared to the changes before it. So I find that the 1828 definitions are pretty close to what the KJV writers used rather than the definitions we use today.

I surely don't want to drive this into a versions debate. The point is we are not talking about English words or their meanings. We are talking about NT Greek words and their meanings. So if we are going to offer up definitions we ought to be focused on NT Greek definitions. Then we can use those definitions to help us in understanding how to be translate the passage in question from NT Greek into modern English.

 

[Brother Bob]

Tell me how they punished the people with death for adultery while indulging in it themselves BibleBoy.
Look at all the concumbines. Some of their children became great nations.

BBob,

 

[Bible-boy]

I don't think so. God's word is very clear what the Israelites were to do with both parties caught in adultry. Both the man and the woman were to be stoned (Deut. 22:22).

Since Jesus mentions a problem with "hardness of heart" followed immediately with the "except for adultry" (fornication, sexual immorality etc.) phrase, we must explore the connection between the OT divorce laws and the OT laws reguarding adultry.

Is it possible that the hardness of heart issue, with respect to cases of adultry, was that the Israelite men were unwilling to stone (kill) their wives/mothers of their children? Thus, the proscription of a bill of divorce was granted in Deut 24:1-2?

On second thought I think I would change the last sentence quoted above to read:

Thus, the permission of a bill of divorce was granted in Deut. 24:1-2.

I say this because Jesus' answer to the Pharisees makes it clear that God never prescribed divorce. He simply permitted it under OT law (Deut. 24:1-2).

 

[Bible-boy]

Tell me how they punished the people with death for adultery while indulging in it themselves BibleBoy.
Look at all the concumbines. Some of their children became great nations.

BBob,

Good question. We'll have to study up on that issue.

 

[Brother Bob]

Good question. We'll have to study up on that issue.

I have always had trouble discussing adultery in the OT and bothers me terrible when we are discussing some sin in the NT, and the first thing some do is say "What about King David". Well, that is why Christ came, so He could dwell inwardly in us, so the righteous of the Law could be fulfilled in us, or we would be just like them, with all the concubines and all the other fleshly desires they fulfilled. We have the Holy Ghost inside of us, that will not let us go that far. IMO

BBob,

 

[righteousdude2]

There are SOME Marriages that CAn't Be SAVED...

Is it possible to be married in the sight of man and not be married in the sight of the Lord?

I know that this will get me some hot button reactions with notes. I've already been told that I'm a lost believer because of divorce. STILL, there are marriages that just can't, and won't be saved NO MATTER WHAT.

My first wife went her own way. She ignored counseling and the church. She just didn't want to be married any longer, or be a pastor's wife, and that was NO FAULT of mine.

I can't believe that God will send me to Hell because of a marital failure. I believe that divorce is a sin, and if I understand the Bible, sin is something that God forgives through His Son's death and ressurection.

Those die-hard believers that shove the Bible in the face of a divorcée and tell them that it is "simply" not acceptable to God need to re-examine the log in their own eye!

I don't believe I serve a God who is that unmovable, and I don't believe you folks that judge divorced people so harshly are any more better than the divorced brother or sister who could do nothing but watch their marriage get washed away in the flood of someone else's sin against you and the marriage you went into for life.

Shalom,

Pastor Paul :type:

 

[exscentric]

"you folks that judge divorced people so harshly"

I may have missed something in 20 pages but for the most part I don't remember anyone judging anyone, rather stating beliefs. I for one believe that the church should be doing a lot more for the divorced etc. for we should minister to them as best we can, but that certainly does not stop us from determining what is right and proper and preaching/teaching it so people do not continue in their sloppy picking of spouses and the try it you'll like it - if not divorce them philosophy.

Just because something is, does not negate what should be. :thumbs: