The Biblical Doctrine of Divorce

[Joe]

If she knows about his "fooling" around, she has a right to dump him.

Also, if he is a Pastor and in our church, we will handle it, and not like most. We would send him packing.

BBob,

Good, you understood me :thumbs: This answers Ann too. Not easy to organize my thoughts lately.
Been working in the heat for 8 hours the last three days, I feel drowzy. Got a sunburn and a tan. Will have to continue this for most of the summer

 

[DHK]

No one is advocating divorce. Our discussion is whether Jesus made an exception for the cause of fornication. Maybe you could give us your thoughts on the scripture in Matt:

Matt 5;
32: But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.

We as a church and Association are very strict on double marriage, but I still want to give whatever liberty that Jesus gave. It is the hardest thing I have had to deal with for all these years and will continue until I die. It is not just members joining that are double married, but its your own family, it leaves no one untouched these days. Its the first question I want to ask, when I get to Heaven, if allowed............

BBob,

Jesus never gave any exception for divorce. All divorce is sin. There is no exception clause. Is this the an example of what you and the married couples say when they get married:

"I, (Name),
Take you, (Name),
To be my (wife/husband);
To have and to hold,
From this day forward,
For better, for worse,
For richer, for poorer,
In sickness and in health,
To love and to cherish,
'Till death do us part." (unless one of us commits fornication/adultery)

Are you the pastor that puts that clause into the vow, as you say Jesus directs you?

An oath is an oath.

Ecclesiastes 5:2 Be not rash with thy mouth, and let not thine heart be hasty to utter any thing before God: for God is in heaven, and thou upon earth: therefore let thy words be few.
Ecclesiastes 5:4-5 When thou vowest a vow unto God, defer not to pay it; for he hath no pleasure in fools: pay that which thou hast vowed.
5 Better is it that thou shouldest not vow, than that thou shouldest vow and not pay.

 

[Brother Bob]

Jesus never gave any exception for divorce. All divorce is sin. There is no exception clause. Is this the an example of what you and the married couples say when they get married:

"I, (Name),
Take you, (Name),
To be my (wife/husband);
To have and to hold,
From this day forward,
For better, for worse,
For richer, for poorer,
In sickness and in health,
To love and to cherish,
'Till death do us part." (unless one of us commits fornication/adultery)

Are you the pastor that puts that clause into the vow, as you say Jesus directs you?

An oath is an oath.

Ecclesiastes 5:2 Be not rash with thy mouth, and let not thine heart be hasty to utter any thing before God: for God is in heaven, and thou upon earth: therefore let thy words be few.
Ecclesiastes 5:4-5 When thou vowest a vow unto God, defer not to pay it; for he hath no pleasure in fools: pay that which thou hast vowed.
5 Better is it that thou shouldest not vow, than that thou shouldest vow and not pay.

2Ti 3:16All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

Matt 5;
32: But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.

You seem to place more emphasis on your authority, than that of the Lord.

Maybe they meant the marriage was "dead"????

BBob,

 

[Gershom]

Until you get your reasoning right, I will not post in this thread.

Seeing that you have in fact posted since this response of yours, why not be a man of your word. That is, unless you believe the one you were replying to in the above quote has "got his reasoning right."

 

[donnA]

Is this the an example of what you and the married couples say when they get married:

"I, (Name),
Take you, (Name),
To be my (wife/husband);
To have and to hold,
From this day forward,
For better, for worse,
For richer, for poorer,
In sickness and in health,
To love and to cherish,
'Till death do us part." (unless one of us commits fornication/adultery)

Our vows were nothing like that. No to have and to hold, no richer or poorer, no sickness or health, no till death do us part.

It was more like
Do you= name
take =name= to be your husband/wife
for better or worse.

The whole thing took 2 minutes.

 

[Bob Dudley]

Originally Posted By Brother Bob
shall put away
630
apoluw
apoluo
ap-ol-oo'-o
from apo - apo 575 and luw - luo 3089; to free fully, i.e. (literally) relieve, release, dismiss (reflexively, depart), or (figuratively) let die, pardon or (specially) divorce:--(let) depart, dismiss, divorce, forgive, let go, loose, put (send) away, release, set at liberty.

ἀπολύω is a verb that literally means to put away or release. The rest of your definition (about divorce) is just a projection by the author.

ἀποστάσιον is a noun that means bill of divorce (a legal document)

Originally Posted By DHK
Jesus never gave any exception for divorce. All divorce is sin.

Still waiting for that verse that says divorce is a sin and explains how God got divorced without sinning.

 

[Outsider]

Hi all,

I am so glad that I am saved by grace through faith. I am also very glad that Christ shows mercy and forgiveness, no matter what the circumstance. I only wish that all Christians showed the same mercy. Too often we get caught up in self righteousness after God has freely forgiven. We often try to crawl back under the law (Or a law) to justify ourselves or condemn someone else.

The victory is in Christ. The devil will always remind you of your sins, send division, tell you why you are not a child of God or how you are just as good as the next the person, etc...

Joh 8:36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

 

[Brother Bob]

ἀπολύω is a verb that literally means to put away or release. The rest of your definition (about divorce) is just a projection by the author.

ἀποστάσιον is a noun that means bill of divorce (a legal document)



Still waiting for that verse that says divorce is a sin and explains how God got divorced without sinning.

Originally Posted By Brother Bob
shall put away
630
apoluw
apoluo
ap-ol-oo'-o
from apo - apo 575 and luw - luo 3089; to free fully, i.e. (literally) relieve, release, dismiss (reflexively, depart), or (figuratively) let die, pardon or (specially) divorce:--(let) depart, dismiss, divorce, forgive, let go, loose, put (send) away, release, set at liberty.

Have to take it up with "Strong's", but notice that, release is in the first part of the definition, and put away is in the last part of the definition, and "divorce" and (specially) divorce, are in the middle of the definition.

Divorce = Put away. Seems we grabbing at straws.

BBob,

 

[Outsider]

Originally Posted by Gershom
Seeing that you have in fact posted since this response of yours, why not be a man of your word. That is, unless you believe the one you were replying to in the above quote has "got his reasoning right."

I was wondering when this was coming. I know many have made this "Oath" and been unable to follow through with it.

 

[DHK]

Still waiting for that verse that says divorce is a sin and explains how God got divorced without sinning.

God got divorced??
Are you a Mormon? Who said that??

Divorce is a sin. I explained it to you already. See post #152.

 

[DHK]

2Ti 3:16All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

Matt 5;
32: But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.

You seem to place more emphasis on your authority, than that of the Lord.

Maybe they meant the marriage was "dead"????

BBob,

Bob, I have lived my half century in this life, and you are probably are much older than I. I have never questioned the meaning of adultery both in my saved life, and in my unsaved life. Adultery has always meant unfaithfulness to one's spouse. That is the meaning of the word in any language.

Likewise I grew up knowing the word fornication. It was not a foreign word to me. As Adultery meant unfaithful to one's wife, or put another way: illicit sex after marriage; fornication was the opposite--illicit sex before marriage. That is the primary meaning of the word, as any dictionary will tell you. Yes, it does encompass some other lesser meanings. But the primary meaning is illicit sex before marriage.

Matthew 5:32 is the only verse where "except for fornication" is used. The context is often ignored here. Let me give it to you.
First the greater context. The Gospel of Matthew was written to Jews presenting Christ as the Messiah, the King of the Jews. There are more OT references in Matthew than in any other Gospel. It seeks to prove that Jesus was the Son of David, the righful heir to the throne of David; the Messiah. It was written to a Jewish audience.

Keeping that in mind, for the Jews especially, fornication meant illicit sex before marriage. We can easily see that in Matthew chapter one, in the life of Mary and Joseph. Joseph was about to "divorce" his "wife to be" Mary. They were betrothed, not married, and yet they called each other husband and wife. That is how tight the marriage contract was at that time. That marriage contract could be broken if fornication (sex before marriage) was found to be true in the wife. This is what happened (or what Joseph supposed) in the life of Mary. She was pregnant. He was going to divorce her, for the cause of fornication, even though they were only betrothed. If it were not for the intervention of the angel, Joseph would have gone ahead with the divorce. It would have been for the cause of fornication--sex before marriage.

That is where Mat.5:32 fits in. The only way it would apply in our society is if in a relationship when a couple is engaged and ready to be married, one of them is found to be unfaithful, then perhaps they should break off the engagement, and think twice about being married. That is the application of that verse today.

 

[Magnetic Poles]

Jesus never gave any exception for divorce. All divorce is sin. There is no exception clause. Is this the an example of what you and the married couples say when they get married:

"I, (Name),
Take you, (Name),
To be my (wife/husband);
To have and to hold,
From this day forward,
For better, for worse,
For richer, for poorer,
In sickness and in health,
To love and to cherish,
'Till death do us part." (unless one of us commits fornication/adultery)

Are you the pastor that puts that clause into the vow, as you say Jesus directs you?

An oath is an oath.

Ecclesiastes 5:2 Be not rash with thy mouth, and let not thine heart be hasty to utter any thing before God: for God is in heaven, and thou upon earth: therefore let thy words be few.
Ecclesiastes 5:4-5 When thou vowest a vow unto God, defer not to pay it; for he hath no pleasure in fools: pay that which thou hast vowed.
5 Better is it that thou shouldest not vow, than that thou shouldest vow and not pay.

There's already something like that in many traditional versions of vows...the forsaking all others part.

 

[Outsider]

DHK,

The woman at the well. Did she comitt fornication or adultry?

John 4:16 Jesus saith unto her, Go, call thy husband, and come hither.
:17 The woman answered and said, I have no husband. Jesus said unto her, Thou hast well said, I have no husband:
:18 For thou hast had five husbands; and he whom thou now hast is not thy husband: in that saidst thou truly.

 

[annsni]

From Webster 1828:

FORNICA'TION, n. [L. fornicatio.]

1. The incontinence or lewdness of unmarried persons, male or female; also, the criminal conversation of a married man with an unmarried woman.

2. Adultery. Matt. 5.

3. Incest. 1Cor. 5.

4. Idolatry; a forsaking of the true God, and worshipping of idols. 2Chron. 21. Rev. 19.

 

[DHK]

DHK,

The woman at the well. Did she comitt fornication or adultry?

John 4:16 Jesus saith unto her, Go, call thy husband, and come hither.
:17 The woman answered and said, I have no husband. Jesus said unto her, Thou hast well said, I have no husband:
:18 For thou hast had five husbands; and he whom thou now hast is not thy husband: in that saidst thou truly.

She said: I have no husband.
Jesus said: You have had five husbands.

One might rightly infer by Jesus' words that she was married to at least one of those five. That being the case; it is adultery.

 

[Brother Bob]

Bob, I have lived my half century in this life, and you are probably are much older than I. I have never questioned the meaning of adultery both in my saved life, and in my unsaved life. Adultery has always meant unfaithfulness to one's spouse. That is the meaning of the word in any language.

Likewise I grew up knowing the word fornication. It was not a foreign word to me. As Adultery meant unfaithful to one's wife, or put another way: illicit sex after marriage; fornication was the opposite--illicit sex before marriage. That is the primary meaning of the word, as any dictionary will tell you. Yes, it does encompass some other lesser meanings. But the primary meaning is illicit sex before marriage.

Matthew 5:32 is the only verse where "except for fornication" is used. The context is often ignored here. Let me give it to you.
First the greater context. The Gospel of Matthew was written to Jews presenting Christ as the Messiah, the King of the Jews. There are more OT references in Matthew than in any other Gospel. It seeks to prove that Jesus was the Son of David, the righful heir to the throne of David; the Messiah. It was written to a Jewish audience.

Keeping that in mind, for the Jews especially, fornication meant illicit sex before marriage. We can easily see that in Matthew chapter one, in the life of Mary and Joseph. Joseph was about to "divorce" his "wife to be" Mary. They were betrothed, not married, and yet they called each other husband and wife. That is how tight the marriage contract was at that time. That marriage contract could be broken if fornication (sex before marriage) was found to be true in the wife. This is what happened (or what Joseph supposed) in the life of Mary. She was pregnant. He was going to divorce her, for the cause of fornication, even though they were only betrothed. If it were not for the intervention of the angel, Joseph would have gone ahead with the divorce. It would have been for the cause of fornication--sex before marriage.

That is where Mat.5:32 fits in. The only way it would apply in our society is if in a relationship when a couple is engaged and ready to be married, one of them is found to be unfaithful, then perhaps they should break off the engagement, and think twice about being married. That is the application of that verse today.

DHK;; I respect your feelings and beliefs, for we have some among us that believe just as you do. I also have been taught that fornication was the "unmarried". After study, I have found that fornication covers "adultery" also, among other things, as the scripture below will show that even among the married, that fornication can happen:

Mat 5:1 ¶ And seeing the multitudes, he went up into a mountain: and when he was set, his disciples came unto him:

Mat 5:2 And he opened his mouth, and taught them, saying,

After He taught His deciples the beatitudes, he then proceeded to teach them.

Mat 5:32 But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.

1Cr 7:2 Nevertheless, [to avoid] fornication, let every man have his own wife, and let every woman have her own husband

At one place He was talking to the Pharasees, but in 5:1 through 5:32, he was teaching His apostles His own everlasting Gospel.

I wish, the scripture was more clear on the subject, or that Jesus would speak directly to us about the matter. I have always and will continue to do the best I know how and heed to His word.

I understand your stance on "until death do us apart", but Jesus is able to annul that if He so desires. Jesus did not put those words in there for the Jews, they already had their law on divorce and marriage. This was different, for Jesus said so, from the hardness of your heart, Moses gave you a Bill of Divorcement, but from the beginning it was not so. He was saying from this day forward, it will only be "saving the cause of fornication".

It has been and will continue to be until I leave this world the hardest subject I have to deal with. I do not want to keep someone out who has a right to be in. I do not want to keep someone in, who should be out. Its tough.........

Matt; is also the beginning of His teaching of His Gospel.


BBob,

 

[Bible-boy]

When Jesus was discussing this issue with the Pharisees and His disciples what was He talking about when He spoke about the "hardness of your hearts"?

Did He mean that God allowed divorce in the OT law (Deut. 24:1-4) because the Israelite men were a bunch of selfish pigs who just wanted to be able to divorce, or did He have something else in mind?

 

[Brother Bob]

She said: I have no husband.
Jesus said: You have had five husbands.

One might rightly infer by Jesus' words that she was married to at least one of those five. That being the case; it is adultery.

No, Jesus gave the answer about her husbands.

John 4:
17: The woman answered and said, I have no husband. Jesus said unto her, Thou hast well said, I have no husband:
18: For thou hast had five husbands; and he whom thou now hast is not thy husband: in that saidst thou truly.

I suspect this woman was guilty of both, but fornication would cover both.

BBob,

 

[LadyEagle]

Deut.24

[1] When a man hath taken a wife, and married her, and it come to pass that she find no favour in his eyes, because he hath found some uncleanness in her: then let him write her a bill of divorcement, and give it in her hand, and send her out of his house.
[2] And when she is departed out of his house, she may go and be another man's wife.
[3] And if the latter husband hate her, and write her a bill of divorcement, and giveth it in her hand, and sendeth her out of his house; or if the latter husband die, which took her to be his wife;
[4] Her former husband, which sent her away, may not take her again to be his wife, after that she is defiled; for that is abomination before the LORD: and thou shalt not cause the land to sin, which the LORD thy God giveth thee for an inheritance.

 

[Bible-boy]

From Webster 1828:

FORNICA'TION, n. [L. fornicatio.]

1. The incontinence or lewdness of unmarried persons, male or female; also, the criminal conversation of a married man with an unmarried woman.

2. Adultery. Matt. 5.

3. Incest. 1Cor. 5.

4. Idolatry; a forsaking of the true God, and worshipping of idols. 2Chron. 21. Rev. 19.

This "modern" English definition is helpful in that it helps us to understand how the word is used in our modern English language. However, it does little to help in the current debate because we are discussing the meaning of the NT Greek word that is translated "fornication." At this point we want to focus on the meaning of the NT Greek not on the meaning of the modern English.